Zoroastrianism

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Fair enough. I have other problems with this theory, although minor. I really wouldn’t mind if I wrong about everything, except the morality element. But since I like to be argumentative:p. The time frame that the resurrection undoubtedly enters Jewish thought seems rather late for it to be developed under Persian influence. As for the Messiah, even if it was not developed to the extent it was after the exile, you do see Messianic-like passages in the pre-exilic prophets. So, I will say that even if Judaism didn’t have a full blown Messiah Theology until they met the Persians, it seems likely to me they would have developed it on their own.
Perhaps they would have developed the Messianic theology independently. But on the Resurrection of the dead, is it inconceivable to consider that it was added or developed into orthodox Jewish thought only after many years of discussion and debate, hence why we do not see its entrance until later?

Also, I’m no expert on this subject, so if I may, how long after the Captivity did Jewish belief in the Resurrection of the dead develop?
 
No. Just… No. The “degradation of the followers of” Zoroastrianism happened sometime around the 800’s AD, when Zoroastrianism was nearly eliminated by Islam. Baha’u’llah came in about 1000 years after that event, way shorter than 2200 years after.
It actually says ONE thousand 200 and some years, not 2200.

The Baha’i Faith begain in exactly 1260 A.H

Kam
 
I’m currently reading “Zoroastrianism” by Peter Clark when I noticed this post… I haven’t reached the chapter on Zoroastrian eschatology and the concept of the Saoshyant, “the bringer of benefit.” Clark mentions that they were supposed to be several of them, including Zoroaster himself, but the final one, after quickly looking at the chapter, isn’t supposed to appear for several thousand years. So, it wasn’t the Baha’u’llah. Given the index doesn’t even list Baha’i, it seems Clark doesn’t think so either.
 
I’m currently reading “Zoroastrianism” by Peter Clark when I noticed this post… I haven’t reached the chapter on Zoroastrian eschatology and the concept of the Saoshyant, “the bringer of benefit.” Clark mentions that they were supposed to be several of them, including Zoroaster himself, but the final one, after quickly looking at the chapter, isn’t supposed to appear for several thousand years. So, it wasn’t the Baha’u’llah. Given the index doesn’t even list Baha’i, it seems Clark doesn’t think so either.
Yes, well I would hazard a guess that a book written with “no prior knowledge” about Judaism would talk much, if at all, about Jesus either 🙂

(especially if the book was written 160 years after the coming of Jesus)

Kam
 
Yes, well I would hazard a guess that a book written with “no prior knowledge” about Judaism would talk much, if at all, about Jesus either 🙂

(especially if the book was written 160 years after the coming of Jesus)

Kam
Actually, Appendix 1 is named “Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity.” I’ll guess it touches on the Babylonian Captivity and the Magi among other things. The book is small, but paragraphs can be a page long. So, it may take me time to get there.
 
Well I would be interested to hear your thoughts after having read it Methos 🙂

Thanks
Kam
 
It actually says ONE thousand 200 and some years, not 2200.

The Baha’i Faith begain in exactly 1260 A.H

Kam
Even still, the Baha’i prophet came at least a hundred years too early; Zoroastrians maintained a majority in Persia for centuries after being taken over by Muslim forces; some regions still boasted Zoroastrian majorities until the 12th century.

And besides that, Zoroastrians are still undergoing persecution in Iran today, and have been for 1400 years. The degradation and persecution of the Zoroastrians is not yet over. Zoroastrianism did not disappear after the 600’s.

Therefore, the Baha’i prophet cannot possibly fulfill Zoroaster’s prophecy, if the Zoroastrians aren’t even done being persecuted yet!
 
Perhaps they would have developed the Messianic theology independently. But on the Resurrection of the dead, is it inconceivable to consider that it was added or developed into orthodox Jewish thought only after many years of discussion and debate, hence why we do not see its entrance until later?

Also, I’m no expert on this subject, so if I may, how long after the Captivity did Jewish belief in the Resurrection of the dead develop?
You know, I had always heard that it was the time of the Macabean Revolt, but I realized I don’t have any sources for that. But I do know the concept appears as an established idea in Macabees, so mid 2nd century BCE is the absolute latest time it could have developed. As far as the earlier possibilities, it depends on your views of the writing of Daniel (12:1-4) and the editing of Isaiah (24:19). Those are pretty isolated verses, so it is not impossible that they date from this time. But I usually steer clear of trying to date a passage by its theology. There is much better resurrection in extra-canonical (in the Jewish sense) writing than canonical. I found this to be a helpful site when looking up my response. In any case, your looking at a range of dates for the earliest citation of the resurrection from before the exile or right after the events of Daniel (fundamentalist view) anywhere up to the Maccabean Revolt. My pet theory is that individual Jews did pick up the resurrection from Persian influence, inserted brief statements into Isaiah, and the religious leaders picked up and ran with it during the second century. Of course, there is no way to prove that. So basically a variation on what you suggest. My caution is that the case for Zoroastrian influence on Judaism was overstated not that it isn’t true.
 
You know, I had always heard that it was the time of the Macabean Revolt, but I realized I don’t have any sources for that. But I do know the concept appears as an established idea in Macabees, so mid 2nd century BCE is the absolute latest time it could have developed. As far as the earlier possibilities, it depends on your views of the writing of Daniel (12:1-4) and the editing of Isaiah (24:19). Those are pretty isolated verses, so it is not impossible that they date from this time. But I usually steer clear of trying to date a passage by its theology. There is much better resurrection in extra-canonical (in the Jewish sense) writing than canonical. I found this to be a helpful site when looking up my response. In any case, your looking at a range of dates for the earliest citation of the resurrection from before the exile or right after the events of Daniel (fundamentalist view) anywhere up to the Maccabean Revolt. My pet theory is that individual Jews did pick up the resurrection from Persian influence, inserted brief statements into Isaiah, and the religious leaders picked up and ran with it during the second century. Of course, there is no way to prove that. So basically a variation on what you suggest. My caution is that the case for Zoroastrian influence on Judaism was overstated not that it isn’t true.
All fair points, and I do think I made it sound a little bit exaggerated. I’ll have to check out that link, thanks for it.
 
I believe that Zoroaster was originally a Hindu priest before his "personal reformation.’ Zoroastrianism was the first religion to explicitly preach about one absolute God, a corporeal agent of evil (similar to Lucifer) and it teaches a final day of the resurrection of the body.

It is little-known today because it was persecuted nearly out of existence by Muslims. Zoroastrians were given the choice to convert or die. Some fled and found toleration in India. A few hundred thousand are left.

I don’t believe that the Catholic Church recognizes Zoroastrianism as a “revealed” religion, but many historians of religion believe it had a deep and lasting effect on both Judaism and Christianity.
 
TEPO;9603320]Is anyone familiar with this ancient middle-eastern religion that predates Islam? It seems to me that it was a very peaceful religion, and even seems to reach out to the Holy Spirit. It seems to me to be entirely based on the Holy Spirit. What do you think?
Hey TEPO. It is true that history tells us that a man named Zoroaster walked the earth before Jesus (some suggest circa 5000 BC while others suggest circa 500 AD) but the only extant writings that remain date back, at best, to the 6th century AD.
 
Is anyone familiar with this ancient middle-eastern religion that predates Islam? It seems to me that it was a very peaceful religion, and even seems to reach out to the Holy Spirit. It seems to me to be entirely based on the Holy Spirit. What do you think?

zoroastrianism.cc/vohu_manah.html

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism#section_6
I did a lot of research on the man about 5 years ago and the following is what I discovered; it aligns well with what this person has to say.

Similar alleged parallels between Zoroaster and Jesus:
Code:
"1. Zoroaster was born of a virgin and "immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason."
Zoroaster's mom was married when she gave birth to him, and there's nothing suggesting she was celibate while married. The "ray of divine reason" was apparently a purely spiritual thing, and Zoroaster's body actually was created the usual way.
2. He was baptized in a river.
Zoroaster receives a revelation while on the banks of a river. That's the closest parallel to be found.
3. In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
Sort of. At age 7, he was put under the care of magi, who he frequently argued with. Later, the magi had him imprisoned, but he was freed after he made the legs grow back on a horse.
4. He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
There is a parallel in the Zoroaster story to Jesus' temptation, and, yes, it does apparently predate the Jesus story by a couple hundred years. However, Zoroaster's "temptation" wasn't by the "devil" (in Zoroastrian literature, Ahriman) and it may or may not have been in the wilderness (the texts don't say). Zoroaster is tempted by a demon, not by Ahriman himself. And his temptation doesn't involve turning stones to bread or leaping from towers, just dialogue between Zoroaster and the demon.
5. He began his ministry at age 30.
True, but the earliest reference to his being thirty is post-Christian.
6. Zoroaster baptized with water, fire, and "holy wind."
First of all, there's no reference to Zoroaster baptizing with any of these things. Second of all, there's no Biblical reference to Jesus baptizing with any of these things! Is the fact that neither of them do these things a parallel?
7. He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
There's no reference to Zoroaster casting out demons, and the earliest reference to his giving eyesight to the blind is from the 10th century A.D.
8. He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
Zoroaster did teach about heaven and hell, and resurrection into a non-dying body. Judgment is done by other gods, but with Zoroaster pleading the case of those who are faithful to him, though, unlike with Christianity, the faithful are not automatically saved. Salvation is achieved by works alone, unlike Christianity. And the apocalypse Zoroaster spoke of was a flood of molten metal. Sounds like a pretty good comparison, huh? However, most of this is from post-Christian writings. Also, most of these subjects begin on the Bible's Old Testament, which predates the earliest Zoroastrian references by several hundred years.
9. He had a sacred cup or grail.
First of all, Zoroaster did not have a sacred cup or grail. Second of all, Jesus (at least according to the Bible) did not have a sacred cup or grail. The Christian "holy grail" is believed by some to be the cup Jesus drank from at the last supper, and others say it was a chalice that collected Jesus' blood at the crucifixion. But as far as its being 'sacred', the Bible makes no such claim. This is a medieval non-Biblical legend.
10. He was slain.
Ummm...okay. So were Caesar, Abraham Lincoln and John Dillinger. Is this supposed to be significant? Let's look at how Zoroaster was slain and see if there is any comparison to how Jesus was slain, shall we? One story has him murdered at the age of 77 by a wizard. Another has him killed in battle. Both of these stories date from the 15th century at the earliest.
11. His religion had a eucharist.
Since they believe in salvation by works alone, why would they have a eucharist? The closest thing they have to a eucharist is a ritual involving the haoma plant, but they don't claim the plant is Zoroaster's body or blood. Besides, the earliest reference to this ritual is post-Christian.
12. He was the "Word made flesh."
No reference to this, implicit or explicit.
13. Zoroaster's followers expect a "second coming" in the virgin-born Saoshyant or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.
First, there's nothing about him being thirty, or of the redeemer being Zoroaster himself. Even the religion disagrees with itself on exactly what's going to happen, though the date of 2341 CE is given (although how this date compares to Jesus, I have no idea). A pre-Christian text (around 400 B.C.) refers to a single redeemer who ushers in a golden age. Later post-Christian texts suggest there will be three redeemers conceived by virgins who bathe in a lake in which Zoroaster's sperm is being divinely preserved. One of these redeemers will eradicate death. Only the one pre-Christian reference could be considered valid, but that one mentions nothing about the return of Zoroaster himself or virgin birth."
 
Is anyone familiar with this ancient middle-eastern religion that predates Islam? It seems to me that it was a very peaceful religion, and even seems to reach out to the Holy Spirit. It seems to me to be entirely based on the Holy Spirit. What do you think?

zoroastrianism.cc/vohu_manah.html

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism#section_6
I’m more interested in the common root between Zoroastrianism and Vedic Brahmanism (the religion of the Indo-Iranians) myself.
 
I believe that Zoroaster was originally a Hindu priest before his "personal reformation.’ Zoroastrianism was the first religion to explicitly preach about one absolute God, a corporeal agent of evil (similar to Lucifer) and it teaches a final day of the resurrection of the body.
While the Indo-Aryans and the Iranians do share common origins, there was no such thing as a ‘Hinduism’ in Zarathustra’s lifetime. 😉
 
I did fall deeply in love with a Persian girl who was a Zoroastarian - her family fled to the US during the collapse of the Shah’s regime/rise of the Ayatollahs.

There are not many of them in general as there is no drive toward conversion - a similarity the share with many modern forms of Judaism.

They way they have related their story to me is very similar to the statements made above.

1.) Some sort of division occurred in the Indo-Aryan tribes that predominated Central Asia/Persian Plateau/Northwestern India. This division/disagreement resulted in a split between two groups.

If you look at modern day Hinduism and the Indian version of Buddhism, there exists within their belief systems Devas and Asuras. Gods and “Anti-Gods” (not so much demons or devils, rather a different set of beings who are also divine).

This primordial division between God Set 1 and God Set 2 has links all the way to Greece (said to be the terminus point of Indo-Aryan expansion) with its myths of Gods and Titans.

The Vedic religion (that thing before what we call Hinduism existed) interpreted the division in one manner. The group Zoroaster originated from did so in quite another.

2.) As it goes, Zoroaster’s reforms occurred during a time of great chaos in his region of the world. The old order was breaking down for one reason or another and so our little concerned holy man did what essentially become customary for all Semitic/Middle Eastern holy men - he climbed a mountain.

3.) I’m sure you know all the rest - such as Ahura Mazda’s struggle with Angra Mainyu, the coming of the Saoshyant (the virgin-birthed savior who will come to free humanity from its bonds and who after some sort of final apocalyptic confrontation will resurrect himself and the dead), etc. etc.
 
If you look at modern day Hinduism and the Indian version of Buddhism, there exists within their belief systems Devas and Asuras. Gods and “Anti-Gods” (not so much demons or devils, rather a different set of beings who are also divine).
While the distinction between a deva and asura in modern Hinduism is often put in terms of as you mention ‘(low-tier) god’ and ‘antigod’, there was still no such clear distinction in Vedism, where both terms describe divine beings in general. In fact, it would seem that asura was more of a designation for deities who preside over abstract moral and social concepts, while a deva is a deity who presides over natural phenomena. Hence Varuna (the supreme keeper of law and order of the universe), Mitra (the god of honesty, friendship, contracts and meetings - cognate to the Iranian Mithra), or Aryaman (presider over marriage oaths) are often called asuras, while gods like Indra (god of storms and thunder, head of the pantheon and national deity of the Indo-Aryans) or Agni (god of fire and the accepter of sacrifices) are devas. However, the terms are still interchangeable: deities described as ‘asuras’ in one instance are also called ‘devas’ in another place and vice versa (Indra, for example, is also called an asura and is said to have been given the asura power to slay the serpent Vritra at one point in the Rigveda!), so even this description is not totally accurate.
 
It is a beautiful religion indeed. 🙂

Zoroaster made a beautiful prophecy:

“When a thousand two hundred and some years have passed from the inception of the religion of the Arabian, and the overthrow of the kingdom of Iran and the degradation of the followers of My religion, a descendant of the Iranian kings will be raised up as a Prophet.”
(Zoroaster - Dinkird)

This predicted the coming of the Baha’u’llah. Many here would be very interested to see that Zoroaster also predicted, in similar clarity, the coming of the Buddha, Christ, and Muhammad…

You will find some interesting dialogue here, relating to all Faiths in Zoroastrian Scripture:

interfaith.org/forum/zoroaster-preditcs-bahai-2133.html

God bless 🙂

Kam
Too bad Mirza Al Hussain is proven decisively false.
 
It is a beautiful religion indeed. 🙂

Zoroaster made a beautiful prophecy:

“When a thousand two hundred and some years have passed from the inception of the religion of the Arabian, and the overthrow of the kingdom of Iran and the degradation of the followers of My religion, a descendant of the Iranian kings will be raised up as a Prophet.”
(Zoroaster - Dinkird)

This predicted the coming of the Baha’u’llah. Many here would be very interested to see that Zoroaster also predicted, in similar clarity, the coming of the Buddha, Christ, and Muhammad…

You will find some interesting dialogue here, relating to all Faiths in Zoroastrian Scripture:

interfaith.org/forum/zoroaster-preditcs-bahai-2133.html

God bless 🙂

Kam
Do the Baha’i consider him a member of the line of prophets like Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammad?
 
Do the Baha’i consider him a member of the line of prophets like Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammad?
They consider him a pre existant entity like the arrians believed about Jesus and one of many “manifestations” like Jesus, Moses, Krishna and Budha despite the huge contradictions between these religions. Except Jesus and Moses Obviously.
 
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