Zoroastrianism

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IgnatianPhilo said:
Arabic quoting one of the greatest Trinitarian defenders in an dishonest attempt to make it appear as if he believed in the bahai concept is not only immoral but as I said dishonest. Mirza Al hussain distinguishes himself from God, he is not equal to God. The fathers of the church, the Nicene church (which basil Accepted) know the faith.

Are you that arrogant to think you can rewrite the creed? Anachronise new meaning on to it?
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:banghead: :banghead:

I give you your own Scripture, proving there is no contradiction and you accuse me of arrogance and anachronisation???

This is the very reason why I choose the Baha’is over the Catholics as the last hope for a declining and crumbling human race.

I refer you to this thread for some further exploration of yourself 🙂

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=701578

:sad_bye:
 
arabic99 said:
:banghead: :banghead:

I give you your own Scripture, proving there is no contradiction and you accuse me of arrogance and anachronisation???

This is the very reason why I choose the Baha’is over the Catholics as the last hope for a declining and crumbling human race.

I refer you to this thread for some further exploration of yourself 🙂

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=701578

:sad_bye:
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Saint Basil isn’t scripture and Saint Basil was a trinitarian who ACCEPTED THE NICENE COUNCIL. We know this. THe bahai cannot accept the Nicene council. Put two and two together sir. Don’t anachronistically try to read something into things.
 
"But the prophecy in the Qur’an in my view also has little to do with the Nicene creed… It had to do with the triumph of Rum or the Byzantines over the Sassanid empire… and yes I think the early Muslims did feel a kinship with the people of the Book as evidenced by taking refuge with the Negus of Aethiopia from the Meccan pagans at the time who wanted to obliterate the new religion.

The Nicene creed or position hasn’t destroyed the Qur’an or the Baha’i Faith… It has to do with Christianity which has seen more divisions than any religion I know of including Islam."

The point in my argument (which thankfully you have backed up by declaring the Nicene position as antithetical to Bahai which arabic just doesn’t at all seem to get) (Denial much?).

Is that the quran specifically tells us those whom would be victorius are the true Christians. The nicenes were victorius ergo they are the true Christians to the quranic author, as classical islamic commentators have made note of. Of course the implicit problem is obvious. How can the Nicenes who according to Muslims and Bahai did not correctly determine who God is be the true followers of Christ? The identity is not a social teaching but an absolute important teaching. Surely you would agree that the identity of God is no mere social issue in bahai?
 
Hi Ignatian,

I think the silence of other Catholics on this forum in your defence is a testament to this futile perspective you have.

Your post above demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of Baha’i theology and an extreme overgeneralization of the princ(name removed by moderator)les it engenders.

As I said before:

:sad_bye:
 
arabic99 said:
Hi Ignatian,

I think the silence of other Catholics on this forum in your defence is a testament to this futile perspective you have.

Your post above demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of Baha’i theology and an extreme overgeneralization of the princ(name removed by moderator)les it engenders.

As I said before:

:sad_bye:
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Or perhaps they are following the faith and not speaking when they know not how to. I’m sure every educated roman catholic here would fully agree with me on Saint Basil and that you are desperately trying to twist him and anacrhonistically make him a bahai.

I’m no expert on Saint basil. So I won’t dare try to find a proof text which I think will support me. I only look at him from the historical context I know and that was one who supported the Nicene definition, eventually. a Definition antithetical to Islam. And the church who has read him and admired him for 1700 years enough to delcare him one of the GREATEST defenders of the trinity. And for you to simply find something that appears to be “bahai” at but a first glance.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Or perhaps they are following the faith and not speaking when they know not how to. I’m sure every educated roman catholic here would fully agree with me on Saint Basil and that you are desperately trying to twist him and anacrhonistically make him a bahai.

I’m no expert on Saint basil. So I won’t dare try to find a proof text which I think will support me. I only look at him from the historical context I know and that was one who supported the Nicene definition, eventually. a Definition antithetical to Islam. And the church who has read him and admired him for 1700 years enough to delcare him one of the GREATEST defenders of the trinity. And for you to simply find something that appears to be “bahai” at but a first glance.
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Ive been looking at this thread just for interest only. As far as I am concerned since the Bahai faith coming only in the 1800s, think they know about St. Basil good luck with that. :rolleyes:

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Ive been looking at this thread just for interest only. As far as I am concerned since the Bahai faith coming only in the 1800s, think they know about St. Basil good luck with that. :rolleyes:

MJ
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I’d like to see one quote, just one MJ, where the Baha’is said that they KNOW about St. Basil??

:rolleyes:

I see no integrity, and I see no love…anyone can just click on a smilie :rolleyes:
Think about the spiritual qualities it communicates from its sender.

So I look forward to one quote please MJ 🙂
 
Stay on the topic of the OP.
Post with charity, with no snide remarks as per the forum rules.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Or perhaps they are following the faith and not speaking when they know not how to. I’m sure every educated roman catholic here would fully agree with me on Saint Basil and that you are desperately trying to twist him and anacrhonistically make him a bahai.

I’m no expert on Saint basil. So I won’t dare try to find a proof text which I think will support me. I only look at him from the historical context I know and that was one who supported the Nicene definition, eventually. a Definition antithetical to Islam. And the church who has read him and admired him for 1700 years enough to delcare him one of the GREATEST defenders of the trinity. And for you to simply find something that appears to be “bahai” at but a first glance.
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No, I’m not trying to twist anything Ignatian. I certainly am not trying to “make” him a Baha’i. HE IS A BAHA’I !! In spirit we are all Baha’i, all Muslim, all Jewish and all Catholic!

He certainly would not go around proclaiming the Baha’i Faith as a false religion willy-nilly like yourself. Things like that put the Catholic Faith into disrepute. He would never stoop to such levels. The Catholic Church aspires to higher levels of nobility

Ignatian, do you have any idea how much the Catholic Church revers Abdu’l-Baha? This man is highly praised by a Catholic document on the Baha’i Faith that was produced by the Bishops Conference of England and Wales.

You are avoiding the obvious. When St. Basil talks says:

“Let us rather, in a sense befitting the Godhead, perceive a transmission of will, like the reflexion of an object in a mirror, passing without note of time from Father to Son.”

What exactly does he mean here?

I would love you to answer just one of my questions 😃
 
Sooo, back ON TOPIC about Zoroastrians, what exactly does the fire represent in a fire temple, does it ever get snuffed out, or is it constantly kept alive?
 
BListon said:
Sooo, back ON TOPIC about Zoroastrians, what exactly does the fire represent in a fire temple, does it ever get snuffed out, or is it constantly kept alive?
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Per the wikipedia:

A fire temple in Zoroastrianism is the place of worship for Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians revere fire in any form. In the Zoroastrian religion, fire (see Atar), together with clean water (see Aban), are agents of ritual purity. Clean, white “ash for the purification ceremonies [is] regarded as the basis of ritual life,” which, “are essentially the rites proper to the tending of a domestic fire, for the temple [fire] is that of the hearth fire raised to a new solemnity” (Boyce, 1975:455).

…

Maintaining the fire in the temple was part of the responsibility and use of fire in worship service was widespread through the ancient world.
 
Some of Zoroastrianisms beliefs:

"*After death, the urvan (soul) is allowed three days to meditate on his/her past life. The soul is then judged by a troika Mithra, Sraosha and Rashnu. If the good thoughts, words and deeds outweigh the bad, then the soul is taken into heaven. Otherwise, the soul is led to hell.

The universe will go through three eras:

creation;

the present world where good and evil are mixed. People’s good works are seen as gradually transforming the world towards its heavenly ideal;

and a final state after this renovation when good and evil will be separated.

Eventually, everything will be purified. Even the occupants of hell will be released.

A Saoshyant (savior) will be born of a virgin, but of the lineage of the Prophet Zoroaster who will raise the dead and judge everyone in a final judgment."*
 

Fiktur wrote: Zoroastrianism … is still practiced by small groups of people in Iran. Most Muslim schools of theology consider them to be in the same category of “People of the Book” that contains Christianity and Judaism.​

Yes, Zoroastrianism has persisted in Iran, but it is not only those people and the Parsees of India who are part of the supposedly remnant Zoroastrian folk. The Kurds, one of the more tolerant ethnic groups in the Middle East and Central Asia, have numerous Zoroastrians among them, albeit most Kurds are Muslim.

What complicates matters is that the Alawi are Muslims in name only. Alawi Islam is syncretisitic and is a mixture of Zoroastrian and Islamic (even occasionally some Christian) elements. That is one reason why even good Sunni and/or Sufist Kurds observe Newroz and practice fire-leaping (at least at the time of year when the feast of Newroz, Kurdish and Persian New Year, falls). Due to Alawi minority Islam prominent among the Kurds, Turks, and others, Zoroastrianism has a strong echo and living presence among those folk in the Middle East and Central Asia. I have met numerous Alawi and Zoroastrian Kurds; it is vexing that these people are so little known to Westerners. Nothing is so easy as it seems at face value in that part of the world!
 
AT_Cross said:
Ummmm…all of this is nice but doesn’t the fact that this religion is now so obscure that most of the world has never heard of it demonstrate that it lacks the fullness of the truth of God? It sounds like it has some nice statements concerning good and evil and all that but I’m just surprised that no one is making any comments about some obvious differences- like Jesus and the Eucharist as the source and summit of our faith? Learn about the traditions of faith around the world and respect all people but we are called to share the fullness of faith and nothing should be put on he same level as what Jesus established in the New Covenant.
Also- Satan isn’t a “concept” from the Jewish faith- Jeus speaks of our enemy the Devi who prowls about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Jesus encounters a person I the desert- not a “concept.”. There is a adversary in the world who is the father of lies. Maybe other religions were aware of Satan and had a measure of the truth, but I’d like to save my praise of religion celebrating the fullness of faith.
Probably I am totally misunderstanding the point of this thread in the first place.
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If numbers are a reflection of the truth of God, then what does that say about Islam and its 1.2 billion adherents?
 

Robert Burke wrote:* If numbers are a reflection of the truth of God, then what does that say about Islam and its 1.2 billion adherents?*​

Numbers and other triumphalistic arguments are no measure of the truth of religion. 🤷 Of course, the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Christian Churches superceded Zoroastrianism, for the most part, then Islam trounced it too, a few centuries later. However, what does that kind of thinking say about how Islam reduced Christianity in the Middle East and Central Asia to remnant status? And, in any event, as I mentioned in my own earlier posting, Zoroastrianism lives on more vigourously than many people in the West suppose.

One problem that plagues Zoroastrians is the precariousness of how their sacred literature has been transmitted, through so much destruction and attempts to reconstitute the sacred writings. It is difficult to know just what Zoroaster and the early followers really taught and believed.

We Catholics have to have such gratitude at how our faith has persisted and our Scriptures been vouchsafed God`s protective and divine preservation of them.
 
There are still a flourishing minority of Parsees in India, where they are renowned as a very cultured (and rich) race. I believe they were the first ancient religion to tackle good and evil with opposing gods representing each. I believe that an adherent could keep a foot in both camps. Worship Ahura Mazda the good god in the hope that they will be protected from the bad god (can’t remember). They could also placate the bad god with offerings in the hope that he will keep off hassling one’s family.
I grew up in India during the British Raj, had many Parsee friends. They believe fire, water and earth to be sacred and therefore had problems of how to dispose of their dead. So they built “Towers of Silence” which are still to be seen. They are like walled castle keeps, open to the sky with a grating covering the inside at the middle. Corpses are laid on the grating and vultures dispose of them; any bones that are left fall through the grating where wild animals finish them off through small gateways at ground level. Gruesome, but that way they do not defile fire, water or earth.
We Christian boys used to rag our Parsee friends saying they sprinkled cow’s pee on their food. On a recent visit to India an old Parsee friend invited us to dinner. I said, “we accept your kind offer, but please don’t sprinkle that stuff on the pilau.” We two septuagenarians engaged in a playful scuffle, he retaliating with good humour. BTW he told me, “I know as much about Catholicism as you do.” “How’s that?” “Whenever you had catechism lessons, we non-Catholics were given the time off. But we couldn’t go anywhere, we had to sit at the back of the classroom and read, or whatever. But of course, we little boys couldn’t help but listen in. Dead crafty, your Catholic priests!”🙂
 

Ian wrote: We Christian boys used to rag our Parsee friends saying they sprinkled cow’s pee on their food.​

Yes, that kind of Mithraic obsession with bulls that Zoroastrians have is one of their colourful traits. I once in college did some research on funerary practices of the world and gave a speech about it. When I mentioned the towers of silence faces in the audiences faces went white, but they recovered enough to choke when I mentioned that, at their weddings, the bride and the groom quaff down a steaming beaker of bulls urine :eek: as a customary part of the festivities.

More charming is the Zoroastrian love of dogs. These folk have an high regard for the hounds. In Zoroastrianism, anyone who mistreats dogs is looked down as being a particularly scurrilous example of human low-life. Zoroastrians love and esteem their dogs!

A particularly famous Parsee whose name many would recognise is Zubin Mehta, 👍 the very famous opera and concert music conductor.
 
Jerry_Parker said:

Ian wrote: We Christian boys used to rag our Parsee friends saying they sprinkled cow’s pee on their food.​

Yes, that kind of Mithraic obsession with bulls that Zoroastrians have is one of their colourful traits. I once in college did some research on funerary practices of the world and gave a speech about it. When I mentioned the towers of silence faces in the audiences faces went white, but they recovered enough to choke when I mentioned that, at their weddings, the bride and the groom quaff down a steaming beaker of bulls urine :eek: as a customary part of the festivities.
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Well, the Greco-Roman Mithras is derived from the Iranian deity (yazata) Mithra, related to the Vedic (Indo-Aryan) god Mitrá and ultimately deriving from the Indo-Iranian divinity *Mitras. (I could go on about the Vedic religion but I’d stop here. 😊)
 
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