Zygotes and heaven?

[phantasm]

What? Life? Of course there is.

l, especially the supernatural nature of the human soul, that is something we do indeed accept as an article of faith.

Your being deliberately obtuse.

Of course I’m talking about the soul. There is no evidence that a supernatural soul exists and it can only believed on faith, as there is no evidence that such a thing exists.

 

[phantasm]

But there are a lot of zygotes that abort spontaneously, without medical intervention,

This is your Gods will.

I don’t think that women should have medical abortions, unless there are serious circumstances that warrant them

Yet you remain a member of a Church that states abortion under any circumstance is wrong

 

[John7]

zygote goes morula

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Your life isn’t over.

At the last second of natural life you may ask forgiveness. That is enough to save you.

You forget that God is omniscient and that he created me, knowing full well that I would turn from him, reject his Church and his son Jesus.

Yet, knowing all of this and knowing that at my death, I will spend eternity separated from him in hell, he chose to create me anyway.

How loving and wonderful of your Lord.

Most Christians haven’t a clue as to what omniscience entails, as it has NOTHING to do with free will.

It means that God knows what I am going to do with my free will, before I even do it. So, God knew a trillion trillion trillion X a trillion years ago that I would reject him and end up in hell, but God created me anyway.

I’m probably still going to hear from some dense Christian who’ll ignore everything I’ve written and simply respond with their favourite mantra ’ God gives you the choice, free will’

 

[Leopard]

Your being deliberately obtuse…

And yer Mama chews terbacker!

Okay, now that we’re done calling each other names, let’s get back to the subject under discussion.

…Of course I’m talking about the soul. There is no evidence that a supernatural soul exists and it can only believed on faith, as there is no evidence that such a thing exists.

Of course there is no scientific evidence concerning the supernatural properties of the soul. By its own nature, the scope of science is limited to observable natural phenomena. No one ever suggested otherwise. But it can not be construed to say that because something lies outside the boundaries of science that it can not exist or that we can not know anything about it.

 

[Dauphin]

You forget that God is omniscient and that he created me, knowing full well that I would turn from him, reject his Church and his son Jesus.

Yet, knowing all of this and knowing that at my death, I will spend eternity separated from him in hell, he chose to create me anyway.

How loving and wonderful of your Lord.

Most Christians haven’t a clue as to what omniscience entails, as it has NOTHING to do with free will.

It means that God knows what I am going to do with my free will, before I even do it. So, God knew a trillion trillion trillion X a trillion years ago that I would reject him and end up in hell, but God created me anyway.

I’m probably still going to hear from some dense Christian who’ll ignore everything I’ve written and simply respond with their favourite mantra ’ God gives you the choice, free will’

I don’t see the problem. God created man for His own glory. If some of us refuse God’s grace and violate His will, it is eminently just that we should be damned. It isn’t evidence of cruelty that God creates beings He knows will deny Him. This is an anthropocentric, selfish view which permeates everything you’ve said. Instead, this mystery is an opportunity to reflect on the manner in which God draws good even from evil. It’s also an opportunity to understand that God isn’t going to just wheel out some happy ending at the end of time. God made man as a creature with great dignity, but also with great responsibility and consequence. He doesn’t treat us like children, sparing us the consequences of our actions.

 

[Abbadon]

I think where you run into trouble with your understanding is that you might not understand what a “soul” actually is.

The Church teaches that the soul is the animating principle of life- everything that is living has a soul. Human beings have an immortal soul, animals and other life have mortal souls.

Something that is alive must, by the very fact that it is alive, have a soul.
Therefore, if you believe that unborn humans don’t have souls, then you must also believe that human beings are not alive until they are born.

If by that logic mitochondria then have mortal souls (whatever that means) or immortal ones? So how many souls does one human then have?

Other than pure fiction where does all this knowledge come from?

 

[Dauphin]

If by that logic mitochondria then have mortal souls (whatever that means) or immortal ones? So how many souls does one human then have?

If you count up all the microorganisms on your skin and in your body, it would amount to many trillions, but their souls are considered mortal, not immortal. In your intestines alone, there are about 100 trillion little buggers doing their work right now

The idea that all living things have at least material souls isn’t dogma, but it’s been almost universally held since at least the middle ages, when St. Thomas Aquinas clearly identified the soul as being that which animates.

 

[phantasm]

Other than pure fiction where does all this knowledge come from?

Through the ages, various men pondered, speculated and then, ultimately, made it all up.

 

[Abbadon]

If you count up all the microorganisms on your skin and in your body, it would amount to many trillions, but their souls are considered mortal, not immortal. In your intestines alone, there are about 100 trillion little buggers doing their work right now

The idea that all living things have at least material souls isn’t dogma, but it’s been almost universally held since at least the middle ages, when St. Thomas Aquinas clearly identified the soul as being that which animates.

No but this is a soul within your cell… It is not like something outside of you that makes you work. It is core to the very fiber of your being. It is you.

And how did St Thomas Aquinas identify this so clearly when we don’t even know what a soul is.

 

[Abbadon]

Through the ages, various men pondered, speculated and then, ultimately, made it all up.

Yes but how do they make it seem as if they actually know? And why do people believe them as if what they say is real?

 

[cerad]

Yes but how do they make it seem as if they actually know? And why do people believe them as if what they say is real?

I think you will notice that most of these people wear funny looking hats. I suspect that is the key to their respectability. And many of them burn incense as well.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Those who believe recognize Truth because He who is Truth has revealed it to them. They were not “convinced” as we would think as a human debate or argument. The Truth was revealed and they accepted the Truth.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Yes but how do they make it seem as if they actually know? And why do people believe them as if what they say is real?

Your issue here isn’t as profound as you might think it is.

Human beings have struggled with how and what is knowable since the moment that we realized that no one can conclusively prove that they know anything. The world you experience is mediated by your senses, that information communicated from one person to another is mediated by language, and that information is interpreted by the recipient in the light of their particular experiences and understanding of the world.

The bottom line is that most people don’t even realize that everything they think they know is essentially taken on faith- our understanding of the soul is no different.

 

[Abbadon]

I think you will notice that most of these people wear funny looking hats. I suspect that is the key to their respectability. And many of them burn incense as well.

Interesting. I believe there could be an experiment in this. Correlation of belief in others of person X relative to the pointedness of person X’s hat and the general level of incense. Perhaps there are elements which create an increased level of Oxytocin.

 

[Abbadon]

Your issue here isn’t as profound as you might think it is.

Human beings have struggled with how and what is knowable since the moment that we realized that no one can conclusively prove that they know anything. The world you experience is mediated by your senses, that information communicated from one person to another is mediated by language, and that information is interpreted by the recipient in the light of their particular experiences and understanding of the world.

The bottom line is that most people don’t even realize that everything they think they know is essentially taken on faith- our understanding of the soul is no different.

Well now your discussing reality. Within this reality there can be seen correlative data. Even if our senses are being deceived the data we collect is only applied to the world we perceive. I do not assume that this world is real, but I do understand the data we have about this world applies to this world.

The only thing we can truly know is “I think therefore I am” . Everything after that is assumption, since I do not like assumptions that are to bold I will never state that this reality is real. But it is the reality I and those that appear to be here with me perceive. And what we know about this reality only applies to this reality. And in this reality we know nothing about a soul as we have no evidence of a soul in this perceived reality.

I try to avoid taking anything on faith. I like reason behind my beliefs rather than just believing. Also argument from authority has never done it for me.

Actually that could be it. Religious leaders are seen as authority and the religious accept truth based on authority. Since faith is all about believing without/despite evidence. It shouldn’t be to difficult to dictate a fact about some unknown without evidence and simply have people believe in it.

 

[phantasm]

It shouldn’t be to difficult to dictate a fact about some unknown without evidence and simply have people believe in it.

Correct. Mary’s assumption comes to mind, as it a belief that one day, was simply declared a belief and just like that, it became a core belief of Catholicism.

 

[jmcrae]

You forget that God is omniscient and that he created me, knowing full well that I would turn from him, reject his Church and his son Jesus.

Yet, knowing all of this and knowing that at my death, I will spend eternity separated from him in hell, he chose to create me anyway.

Unless God actually creates you, He cannot know how you will choose to spend your eternity. Before He created you, He made no predictions at all about your life, because you didn’t exist, yet, and there was nothing for Him to watch you doing.

Keep in mind, we are not created in time - we are created in that Eternal instant of the Creation. It was only after everything (including you) was created, that God could “watch the video” so to speak, and see how everything turned out. By that time, it was far too late to unmake you.

It means that God knows what I am going to do with my free will, before I even do it.

Yes - but not before He creates you. Before He creates you, you don’t exist, and there is, therefore, nothing for God to watch your future self doing, and “foresee” that you will do it.

From God’s point of view, time has already ended. He already knows what you will do in the future, not because He is “predicting” something, but because He watched/will watch you do it, at that future time when you did/will do it. But if God had not created you, there would have been nothing for Him to watch, and thus, nothing for Him to “predict” or to prevent by not creating you.

 

[phantasm]

Unless God actually creates you, He cannot know how you will choose to spend your eternity. Before He created you, He made no predictions at all about your life, because you didn’t exist, yet, and there was nothing for Him to watch you doing.

Keep in mind, we are not created in time - we are created in that Eternal instant of the Creation. It was only after everything (including you) was created, that God could “watch the video” so to speak, and see how everything turned out. By that time, it was far too late to unmake you.

Fascinating, so your saying that your God is limited in his power and doesn’t know all and see all. Interesting, your one of the few Christians who denies that God is all powerful and all knowing.

God not being able to change something, means his power is limited, which means that God either does not exist or God is not all powerful.

God not knowing and seeing all, means that God is not omniscient. If God had not known a trillion trillion trillion human years ago that I was going to write this sentence, then that means that God is not omnsicient.

It’s not God making predications, it is GOD KNOWING EVERYTHING THAT HAS OR EVER WILL HAPPEN. That is the Christian God, I’m honestly not sure that you comprehend what omniscience and omnipotence actually mean.

If God is not all powerful and all knowing, ( As most Catholics and Protestants believe, I know your an exception) then why worship a Deity that is limited in power and blind in foreknowledge?

That, or you don’t know what the heck your talking about.

 

[jmcrae]

Fascinating, so your saying that your God is limited in his power and doesn’t know all and see all. Interesting, your one of the few Christians who denies that God is all powerful and all knowing.

He knows what there is to be known. He does not speculate on what might happen, given different circumstances, other than when presenting us with choices, and telling us, “Today I set before you life and death. Therefore, choose life.”

God not being able to change something, means his power is limited, which means that God either does not exist or God is not all powerful.

He does not change what is, to what is not. He gives us miracles from time to time, but not in order to “change” things, but rather, to make them to be as they are.

God not knowing and seeing all, means that God is not omniscient. If God had not known a trillion trillion trillion human years ago that I was going to write this sentence, then that means that God is not omnsicient.

He did. A trillion trillion human years ago, He was sitting on your shoulder in the here and now, watching you write it. He did not “predict” it - He knew it because He was watching you do it at the moment that you did it, and then He returned to the moment of time that is a trillion trillion years ago, and remembered seeing you do it in the now.

If God is not all powerful, ( As most Catholics and Protestants believe, I know your an exception) then why worship a Deity that hasn’t the power to undo his creation?

He certainly has the power to do so. He simply chooses not to. But if He uncreated you, then He would have to uncreate everything that you have ever affected, as well. Some of which might be part of His divine plan. So then, He chooses not to.

Not that we would ever know, because if God were to unmake something, it would simply disappear from all existence - past, present, and future - and we would never know that it had ever existed.

If God were to uncreate you right now, you would simply cease ever to have existed. Everything you ever touched or affected would also be gone, too. Nobody would miss you, or any of the things that you had affected, because nobody would be aware that you or they had ever been around. We would simply live in a different world than we do now, without ever knowing the difference.