Zygotes and heaven?

[phantasm]

We all know that the RC considers Zygotes human life and therefor, when aborted, they get to go to heaven.

Now, it is estimated that between 20% and 50% of all pregnancies end in spontaneous and natural abortion of the zygote.

In the history of man, that’s hundreds of billions of zygotes that have aborted without mans intervention.

It must be believed that God chose to create life in the form of a zygote, knowing that said life would be aborted spontaneously in a few weeks.

When the zygotes are in heaven, what form do they take? Do they remain zygotes and just float around?

If the zygotes do take the form of a young man or woman, what are their minds filled with? They have no earthly memories, no relationships, they in fact never had an actual brains.

Everyone talks about re-uniting with loved ones in heaven, but these zygotes never knew anyone, so who would they reunite with? Many woman who have spontaneous abortions never even knew they were pregnant.

I can just imagine a zygote going up to his or her mother and introducing themselves and it being a really awkward reunion, because the mom never new the zygote existed.

Would they just take the form of mindless young bodies that float around?

What is the theological belief by the Roman Catholics on this obviously valid question.

Jesus himself said that not many people will make it to heaven, so is heaven filled with just a few people and hundreds of billions of zygotes?

Allot of these zygotes were spontaneously aborted due to genetic complications and these zygotes were incapable of growing into babies. So, if in heaven, they did take the form of their older selves, would they appear as their genetically damaged selves?

Also, why would God choose to create the zygote with genetic damage and then have that zygote spontaneously aborted a few weeks later, without the mother ever knowing that she was pregnant? Fascinating question. Why wouldn’t God just save the few weeks of life as a Zygote and fast track the zygote right to heaven?

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

 

[Eucharisted]

Mother Church dosen’t say where aborted children go. But she entrusts them to the Mercy of God.

And no one knows what Heaven is like, so all anyone can do is speculate.

 

[cerad]

Mother Church dosen’t say where aborted children go. But she entrusts them to the Mercy of God.

And no one knows what Heaven is like, so all anyone can do is speculate.

So this whole thing about saints and such is just pure speculation?

It really seems like the zygote question deserves a better answer than that.

 

[Snerticus]

Don’t worry about things that you could not possibly comprehend.

If you were a spiritual person, you may not understand fully, but you’d understand enough not to worry about the things you don’t.

 

[Leopard]

…I can just imagine a zygote going up to his or her mother and introducing themselves and it being a really awkward reunion, because the mom never new the zygote existed…

Why would this be awkward? I should think it would be one of the joys of heaven for a mother to learn that she was the mother of another saint.

 

[mmm1]

Hey, phantasm, lots of questions & I have to leave in a few minutes, so excuse this quick, disjointed response.

Can answer a few, but some things only God knows. With aborted & miscarried babies, the concern is they probably have original sin but aren’t baptized. The Church used to believe the babies went to Limbo, I believe they are studying that teaching. The Church knows for sure that we entrust these little ones to the mercy of God. From what I know of God’s mercy, I know for certain my baby that I lost at the start of my 2nd semester is with Him in heaven. Our reunion will be joyous & not a bit awkward. For those who never knew they were pregnant, same idea. We all will have eternity to get to know each other!

We don’t know all the details, but our bodies will be glorified in heaven, no more suffering or pain. People with disabilities will have everything need in heaven. Sometimes God does allow zygotes, fetuses & babies to die very young, but He has created an eternal life that can live in joy for eternity with family members & all other souls. It’s not hard to make knew friends in heaven & we may even have infused knowledge to know all souls.

God’s not always literal, so “few” & “many” to Him may mean different things. We should not put human limitations on God. Lots of surprises when we get to heaven, phantasm, no worries. God has everything figured out! Gots to go…

 

[Snerticus]

Not to mention there are no “forms” in heaven. It’s purely spiritual and therefore takes up no space. But then I realize in saying that, it would lead to more questions. But I gotta go soon too. Time for Mass.

But before I go: there will be no such thing as zygotes, embryos, fetal mass, etc. There will only be humans. Formless humans, but humans nonetheless. The New Earth will be a different story I suppose, but for our particular discussion, spiritual things are formless and take up no space and do not exist in time.

Things have to be put in human terms in order for us to understand, therefore there is no humanly possible way to understand the purely spiritual world until we get there. Rest assured, one day you will understand.

 

[phantasm]

It certainly sounds like their will be more zygotes in heaven than fully developed people.

It makes one wonder why pro life even fight over abortion, as they are assuring that a zygote may lose it’s place in heaven, if after it is born, it becomes an Atheist or Scientogist.

It is difficult to hear, but zygotes are guaranteed a place in heaven, where as fully formed people have thousands of ways to find their way to hell.

I understand it is hard to think about these things, but why would pro-lifers steal heaven away from zygotes?

The best chance people have to get to heaven sounds like it is when they are zygotes.

Rather than dismissing me outright, perhaps try to set me right in what I perceive to be correct application of Catholic theological views?

 

[Leopard]

It certainly sounds like their will be more zygotes in heaven than fully developed people…

Do you think that the souls of persons who have died at the zygote stage of bodily development are undeveloped or that the glorified bodies they will receive will be undeveloped? Why?

 

[Snerticus]

What I don’t understand is why one even thinks there will be zygotes in heaven.

 

[phantasm]

What I don’t understand is why one even thinks there will be zygotes in heaven.

Then why does the Catholic Church believe that humans have a soul the moment that theRE is life, which is in fact the zygote?

If the zygote is human life, the zygote has a soul, if the zygote dies, then where does the soul go?

Snerticus, your the Catholic, not me. This is your faith that teaches this, not me. Why does this baffle you? Perhaps you have never thought of it. It is a teaching of your faith, my question is not foolish or stupid.

What say you?

 

[phantasm]

Do you think that the souls of persons who have died at the zygote stage of bodily development are undeveloped or that the glorified bodies they will receive will be undeveloped? Why?

What stage will the zygote be developed? This is your faith, not mine. It is my question and your answering my question with another question.

Why does your God create a life in the zygote, but does allow for correct genetic formation of that life, then that life,which is the zygote, is spontaneously aborted before the mother is even aware that she was pregnant?

Seems weird that God would not create the life properly in the first place, rather than create a zygote with genetic abnormalities that will result in a spontaneous abortion.

 

[jmcrae]

We all know that the RC considers Zygotes human life and therefor, when aborted, they get to go to heaven.

We entrust them to God’s mercy, and don’t know for a fact that they are in Heaven, but it seems like a reasonable supposition.

Now, it is estimated that between 20% and 50% of all pregnancies end in spontaneous and natural abortion of the zygote.

That’s quite true.

In the history of man, that’s hundreds of billions of zygotes that have aborted without mans intervention.

Right.

It must be believed that God chose to create life in the form of a zygote, knowing that said life would be aborted spontaneously in a few weeks.

He knew what was going to happen to them, for sure. Indeed, when one contemplates the number of things that go wrong in the “safety” of the womb, it’s a wonder any of us get out of there alive. Furthermore, what we consider a “normal” life of conception to old age is, in reality, extremely rare. The vast majority of human beings die between conception and the age of five. Another huge percentage die in various different kinds of accidents between the ages of 5 and 25.

When the zygotes are in heaven, what form do they take? Do they remain zygotes and just float around?

I have no idea. St. Augustine once speculated that everyone in Heaven is the biological equivalent of 33 years old, because that is the age that Jesus died for us on the Cross.

If the zygotes do take the form of a young man or woman, what are their minds filled with? They have no earthly memories, no relationships, they in fact never had an actual brains.

Perhaps there is enough in Heaven to keep them interested. Certainly, they would meet those of their ancestors who are in Heaven, and would be told stories about their heritage.

I can just imagine a zygote going up to his or her mother and introducing themselves and it being a really awkward reunion, because the mom never new the zygote existed.

Once we get to Heaven, there will be no more awkwardness, since we will all be filled with perfect, unconditional love for one another.

Jesus himself said that not many people will make it to heaven, so is heaven filled with just a few people and hundreds of billions of zygotes?

I have no idea.

Allot of these zygotes were spontaneously aborted due to genetic complications and these zygotes were incapable of growing into babies. So, if in heaven, they did take the form of their older selves, would they appear as their genetically damaged selves?

All diseases, including genetic diseases, are cured in Heaven, so if they are in Heaven, they will be in healed, perfect bodies.

Also, why would God choose to create the zygote with genetic damage and then have that zygote spontaneously aborted a few weeks later, without the mother ever knowing that she was pregnant?

In order to fulfill that person’s role as assigned to him or her by God, in the great tapestry of life. Some threads are short; others are long; some are bright, and some are dark. We all have an essential part to play, how ever small or large.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

A sobering thought, for sure.

 

[Snerticus]

Then why does the Catholic Church believe that humans have a soul the moment that theRE is life, which is in fact the zygote?

If the zygote is human life, the zygote has a soul, if the zygote dies, then where does the soul go?

Snerticus, your the Catholic, not me. This is your faith that teaches this, not me. Why does this baffle you? Perhaps you have never thought of it. It is a teaching of your faith, my question is not foolish or stupid.

What say you?

What say I? I already said. There is no such thing as a zygote in heaven. We are all humans. There is no formed “body” in heaven, as we will be spiritual. Whether the person is a zygote, an embryo, an infant or a fully formed human, the spirit will be “human” in heaven - just as there are now angels in heaven that are purely spirit. The soul will be developed as much as it will ever be in whatever form a spirit takes (which I previously said, looks like nothing to us here on earth because we can’t percieve it in our physical human form).

It’s not our doctrine that says there are zygotes in heaven, it’s what you read into our doctrine that says so. You keep saying it’s our doctrine but it’s not. Souls are in heaven, not bodies, so it doesn’t matter how developed or not they are here. All souls will be fully formed in heaven.

I’m baffled myself as to why you don’t see this.

As I said before, it’s a spiritual thing. If you aren’t a spiritual person, you won’t comprehend it fully. Even if you are spiritual, you won’t comprehend it fully, but you won’'t be worried about it either. I’m not, and I don’t think the other Catholics that have responded to your question are either.

 

[phantasm]

What say I? I already said. There is no such thing as a zygote in heaven. We are all humans. There is no formed “body” in heaven, as we will be spiritual. Whether the person is a zygote, an embryo, an infant or a fully formed human, the spirit will be “human” in heaven - just as there are now angels in heaven that are purely spirit. The soul will be developed as much as it will ever be in whatever form a spirit takes (which I previously said, looks like nothing to us here on earth because we can’t percieve it in our physical human form).

Im not sure your Bible agrees with your speculation.

Luke 24:39 ( Your Jesus has been resurrected)

Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have."
And as he said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

Luke 16 ( Your Jesus is telling a parable about the afterlife, and he clearly speaks of one man being carried into heaven by angels…why would angles carry pure spirit?)

Anyway, Jesus clearly spoke of the rich man being dead, yet still having eyes.

The rich man also died and was buried,
and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Im not sure your Church agrees with your speculation.

It is taught that Mary`s body was assumed into heaven.

I’m not sure how your going to take this, but it is my opinion that you need to look into this a little bit more. Your speculation appears to be off base, both with what your scripture alludes to and what your Church seems to preach.

 

[RobbyS]

It certainly sounds like their will be more zygotes in heaven than fully developed people.

It makes one wonder why pro life even fight over abortion, as they are assuring that a zygote may lose it’s place in heaven, if after it is born, it becomes an Atheist or Scientogist.

It is difficult to hear, but zygotes are guaranteed a place in heaven, where as fully formed people have thousands of ways to find their way to hell.

I understand it is hard to think about these things, but why would pro-lifers steal heaven away from zygotes?

The best chance people have to get to heaven sounds like it is when they are zygotes.

Rather than dismissing me outright, perhaps try to set me right in what I perceive to be correct application of Catholic theological views?

If God is the Creator, he had given being to everything. But there is a hierarchy of Being. There is also a hierarchy of sanctity. Not everyone in heaven is equal. That is the basis of the picture Dante draws in his “Divine Comedy.” If we don’t place “Limbo,” in hell, as he did, as innocent beings deprived of the Beatific Vision, but put it in heaven.
thenwe have billions of souls on the “lowest rung,” and --in a sense–unjustly denied their chance to gain a higher rank. But they are still in heaven.

But Dante, is of course, simply drawing a picture of what he thinks the moral universe looks like. Not the real thing, of course, but a poetic image of it, and true to the extent that he captures a theological image. that is a true likeness to it, I mean that of St. Thomas. That universe is the universe of human beings and their relationships. Where do these nascent beings fit into the picture, how can we know? How can we know even those human beings we do not know, even by name? We are faced with great mystery, a veil that is pierced only by lights at some points, some streams seemingly to give us a glimpse of what is behind it, some lights so brilliant that they blind us when we gaze too long at them. I do not dismiss your question, but is this, really, one that we ought to be considering. Should we not just start with ourselves, and try to discern from our own experiences and those of our friends, where we stand? We and those of whom we knew a little. Every moment millions of human beings perish. What is the standing of these people as they go to God? Truth be told we are except for conjectures as ignorant of them as we are of the wee ones who never see the light of day.

 

[Leopard]

Not to get off on a tangent, phantasm, but why do you consider this a social justice issue?

 

[Dauphin]

In the zygote, the biological identity of the human person is already entirely constituted. The program is entirely fixed as to what this living being will become if its life is allowed to continue. God, in his omniscience, would be able to determine the form which the body is ultimately to take.

Concerning salvation, the Church teaches that all those who perish still retaining the stain of original sin will descend into hell, but will not necessarily suffer active punishment if they are not guilty of personal sin. Some (not me) argue that original sin is remitted in some extraordinary way which allows unbaptized infants and others to be saved. This is a subject open to discussion.

I personally think that this more recent opinion effectively neutralizes the faith. The OP is right in saying that everyone would then be better off having died as a zygote. Abortion would become a means of salvation, like some sort of perverted sacrament.

 

[Snerticus]

Im not sure your Bible agrees with your speculation.

Luke 24:39 ( Your Jesus has been resurrected)

Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have."
And as he said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

Luke 16 ( Your Jesus is telling a parable about the afterlife, and he clearly speaks of one man being carried into heaven by angels…why would angles carry pure spirit?)

Anyway, Jesus clearly spoke of the rich man being dead, yet still having eyes.

The rich man also died and was buried,
and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Im not sure your Church agrees with your speculation.

It is taught that Mary`s body was assumed into heaven.

I’m not sure how your going to take this, but it is my opinion that you need to look into this a little bit more. Your speculation appears to be off base, both with what your scripture alludes to and what your Church seems to preach.

Phantasm, I don’t need to look into scripture more. By the way you misunderstand Catholic teaching, it’s no wonder you’re not Catholic anymore.

You are not talking about heaven, you’re talking about the general resurrection when the body will be reunited with the soul. At that point, everyone’s body will be glorified in Christ. I don’t know how that will “look”, but a past poster suggested everyone will possibly look like they did at 33. But that’s just speculation. For now, there are no bodies in heaven. Mary was assumed, yes, but if you recall, no other human being was ever assumed into heaven. Who knows how God adapted her body once she got into Heaven? And from what I’ve heard described from priests, angels have the ability to manipulate matter (but NOT create it).

But you are diverging from your original question, which was about zygotes. You mentioned the word “zygote” in your post at least 16 times. I wonder why this fascination with zygotes?

I told you that you wouldn’t understand. You left the faith precisely because you didn’t. Your OP showed how much you still don’t understand.

That said, I’m not a scholar. I can and probably am wrong in my description in some spots, however I don’t think I am generally. For now, and until the general ressurection, we will be spirits in Heaven. That means Jesus too. He wasn’t in heaven when he showed Thomas those wounds. He was on earth.

There is so much you need to understand about Catholic faith, that writing 10 long paragraphs in a forum wouldn’t even scratch the surface about what you are missing in order to understand why there are no “zygotes” in heaven and why there will be no “zygotes” at the general resurrection.

997 What is “rising”? In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body. God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus’ Resurrection.
998 Who will rise? All the dead will rise, “those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.”
999 How? Christ is raised with his own body: “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself”; but he did not return to an earthly life. So, in him, “all of them will rise again with their own bodies which they now bear,” but Christ “will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body,” into a “spiritual body”:
But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel …What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable… The dead will be raised imperishable… For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
1000 This “how” exceeds our imagination and understanding; it is accessible only to faith. Yet our participation in the Eucharist already gives us a foretaste of Christ’s transfiguration of our bodies:
Just as bread that comes from the earth, after God’s blessing has been invoked upon it, is no longer ordinary bread, but Eucharist, formed of two things, the one earthly and the other heavenly: so too our bodies, which partake of the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, but possess the hope of resurrection.
1001 When? Definitively “at the last day,” "at the end of the world."Indeed, the resurrection of the dead is closely associated with Christ’s Parousia:
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[Daedelus76]

In the middle ages in Europe, people sometimes believed that the souls of the unborn or stillborn could wander around like ghosts or wisps and cause mischief. In Asia there are actually similar beliefs, they believe the spirit of an unborn child has the ability to cause misfortune, so they have rituals to apologize to this spirit, give it a death name, and entrust it to supernatural beings to take care of it in the afterlife or underworld. Unlike in Christianity, they believe it is possible the spirit will either be reborn on Earth again in time, or reborn in a “Heaven” of sorts as an adult.