‘A Catholic case for same-sex marriage’

[coachkfan1]

Rubbish.

Could you choose to become homosexual? You could wilfully act in such a way but it would not be something you would be comfortable with and you would not perceive any sexual attraction to persons of your own gender.

I don’t think that practicing homosexuals feel comfortable with what they are doing deep down inside. They know it’s wrong but for psychological reasons usually steeped in some sort of sexual abuse, they continue to act out the very sin that they detest.

 

[aprilfloyd]

April

** but to go as far as some on this forum to ‘declare’ it abnormal or against god **is verging on if not is bigotry

Did you know that the God of Christianity is a proper noun and therefore should be capitalized?

god is capitalised as God, by a lot of christians as they do not have a popular name for their god - some use Jehovah and so capital J. There is no requirement to capitlise god as it is a generic term e,g, norse gods, greek gods etc,. I have mentioned earlier in posts that it can be confusing because catholics and other religons use ‘God’ as in a name .e.g.John.

It’s a bit like calling my dog - Dog - so I would use a capital in the second case. When I refer to god, I mean whatever the poster thinks of as their god and not the name God for a specific god. I hope that makes sense I have always though that religions should just preface their god with their religion - so Catholic God, makes it obvious which god is being discussed.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I was raised catholic and may see a lot of what it promoted as wrong or disagree with it, but I never saw it as a church that did not encourage debate or the seeking of truth. I am just looking for answers and conversation about the most basic questions humans ask. If I was born in a different country or to a different family, I may be in a hindu, or jewish forum. But as it stands my search for truth is always going to be rooted in Catholicism and in that respect I consider myself to be in the ‘right’ forum.

As far as debating and questioning goes, that’s fine. Some of the problem some of us have with some of your posts, however, is that you don’t actually debate or ask - you just simply state that Catholic teaching is wrong, and come across as though you’re saying that we must be silly for believing it (whether that is your intention or not).

We respect that you disagree with us, as do many non-Catholics on this site, but you have a certain “everything you believe is nonsense” air about how you comment at times which gets up our noses.

You may believe that the Catholic representation of god determines sin, but you must concede that that is debatable and is a matter of opinion. In the UK gay marriage is to become legal and in my opinion not sinful. It would be interesting to see some proof of what you propose

I think you grossly misunderstand what sin is. If there is no God, there is no sin. If God does exist, then sin is anything that offends Him, and this is a fixed set of things.

In other words, you “opinion” on the matter is meaningless. What you can do is attempt to show that revelation does not condemn homosexual activity and also that such activity is not against the natural law (you would have to do both). But the fact that you think that it’s not nice to condemn something that some people really, really want to do really doesn’t matter at all.

Of course, if you don’t believe in revelation, then you could settle for the natural law approach as a good place to start.

But again. Sin is not a matter of opinion. An action is either prohibited, or not. Our “opinions” are irrelevant, so if you wish to debate the issue, you’ll have to go deeper than that.

 

[stormcloud]

Sexual orientation may or may not be a choice, but acting on it is. By your logic, one might say that cancer is genetic and normal too, as it occurs naturally and without human intervention.

Homosexuals receive every right that heterosexuals do: To marry appropriately, with someone of the opposite sex, and thus ensure that they are not damaging themselves or any others by way of unnatural unions and aberrant acts.

Your statement is comparable to asking for the right to murder, or steal, or lie in court; these things aren’t rights at all, and neither is homosexual “marriage”. It is disordered and unnatural.

 

[bitznbitez]

Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?

Its in the commandment on coveting. It says thou shalt not coven they neighbors a**.

 

[DexUK]

I don’t think that practicing homosexuals feel comfortable with what they are doing deep down inside. They know it’s wrong but for psychological reasons usually steeped in some sort of sexual abuse, they continue to act out the very sin that they detest.

That’s some sweeping generalisation going on there.

I know several homosexuals. Not one of them has been sexually abused.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

god is capitalised as God, by a lot of christians as they do not have a popular name for their god - some use Jehovah and so capital J. There is no requirement to capitlise god as it is a generic term e,g, norse gods, greek gods etc,. I have mentioned earlier in posts that it can be confusing because catholics and other religons use ‘God’ as in a name .e.g.John.

Incorrect. A “god” in the sense of most mythologies is just some other being that is characterized as having supernatural powers and more or less in charge of people to some extent.

We don’t believe that any such being exists. God, as believed in by Christians is not just some noisy mythological creature, one being above others who happens to be the biggest and the strongest.

Rather God is the most fundamental answer to the question “why” and “where from,” or, if you prefer, that which cannot and does not need to be defined in terms of something else. He is not a thing which exists, but the “sheer act of to be itself,” not a being at all in normal terms, but being as a verb. God is “He who Is”.

In this sense of the word, there can only be one God, one source of absolutely everything, and the description and the name are identical. He is not one among many - God is not a “anything”.

And if you don’t buy it, that’s fine, but please, when you are referring to God as Christians believe in Him, show some respect while you’re here. The shift key isn’t that hard to press.

 

[aprilfloyd]

As far as debating and questioning goes, that’s fine. Some of the problem some of us have with some of your posts, however, is that you don’t actually debate or ask - you just simply state that Catholic teaching is wrong, and come across as though you’re saying that we must be silly for believing it (whether that is your intention or not).

We respect that you disagree with us, as do many non-Catholics on this site, but you have a certain “everything you believe is nonsense” air about how you comment at times which gets up our noses.

I think you grossly misunderstand what sin is. If there is no God, there is no sin. If God does exist, then sin is anything that offends Him, and this is a fixed set of things.

In other words, you “opinion” on the matter is meaningless. What you can do is attempt to show that revelation does not condemn homosexual activity and also that such activity is not against the natural law (you would have to do both). But the fact that you think that it’s not nice to condemn something that some people really, really want to do really doesn’t matter at all.

Of course, if you don’t believe in revelation, then you could settle for the natural law approach as a good place to start.

But again. Sin is not a matter of opinion. An action is either prohibited, or not. Our “opinions” are irrelevant, so if you wish to debate the issue, you’ll have to go deeper than that.

I apologise for seeming abrasive, I think if you think something is wrong there is the tendency to just come out and say it.

I see the same in reverse and I think I am just ‘reacting’ to that. For example your own post just says things as though they are objectively true and to me they seem twisted around - the argument that homosexuality is against natural law would need to be shown - not the other way round. Homosexuality pre-dates the catholic church.

To say that sin is not a matter of opinion, I don’t understand as religious sins are not automatically enacted in law.

If something is prohibited we have made a law against it and some ‘sins’ are laws e.g. murder . But not all ‘sins’. A sin to my knowledge is something that goes against ‘divine law’ so apostasy in terms of islam is a sin from god to the muslim world, but that clashes with the catholic view - as a catholic cannot be a muslim - which is the correct sin. As I see it sin is open to interpretation and what one accepts

 

[aprilfloyd]

:Your statement is comparable to asking for the right to murder, or steal, or lie in court; these things aren’t rights at all, and neither is homosexual “marriage”. It is disordered and unnatural.

Do you have any proof of this? How can homosexuality or homosexual marriage be unnatural - homosexuality is part of nature - that is irrefutable.

How can you equate homosexuality rights with a ‘right to murder’ love to see that connection explained

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I apologise for seeming abrasive, I think if you think something is wrong there is the tendency to just come out and say it.

I see the same in reverse and I think I am just ‘reacting’ to that. For example your own post just says things as though they are objectively true and to me they seem twisted around - the argument that homosexuality is against natural law would need to be shown - not the other way round. Homosexuality pre-dates the catholic church.

To say that sin is not a matter of opinion, I don’t understand as religious sins are not automatically enacted in law.

If something is prohibited we have made a law against it and some ‘sins’ are laws e.g. murder . But not all ‘sins’. A sin to my knowledge is something that goes against ‘divine law’ so apostasy in terms of islam is a sin from god to the muslim world, but that clashes with the catholic view - as a catholic cannot be a muslim - which is the correct sin. As I see it sin is open to interpretation and what one accepts

The natural law argument can be found here: catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality, and in more detail in other places. What I meant to imply was that there was an argument which Catholics hold to be correct, and some of us will debate it with you if you desire, but that to debate this issue with us requires approach along one of those lines to be very lively (or perhaps from some other direction I haven’t thought of, but it usually boils down to one of those).

Often we will state Church teaching as fact here, because as Catholics, we believe it to be so and the fact that the Church teaches it is an argument among Catholics. It is the default Catholic position that what the Church teaches is correct. We will be happy to debate the whys and hows, but when just answering a question what we will tend to do is say what the Church says, with the understanding that the argument for its correctness is based on the authority of the Church (which we will also be happy to debate, where it should be appropriate). However, we will often debate the issue if an objection is raised, or some reason is given as to why a poster thinks it is incorrect.

Sin is not equivalent to civil law. Not all sins should be outlawed, and not all things which are outlawed are necessarily sins in themselves when the civil law is not considered (driving over 35 on a certain road, for example). There are relationships that should exist - if a thing is truly wrong, then perhaps that particular thing should not be prohibited by the civil power, but it is prohibited by God, and the civil power should not encourage it or call it good. But the fact that laws can be passed one way or the other does not say much for what is and is not sin (though what is and is not sin does say something for which laws should be passed).

The fact that many people disagree over what sin is does not relegate it to a matter of opinion, no more than the fact that in the recent past physicists were not sure whether the universe would expand forever, or contract again to a single point made that a matter of opinion. One of the two (or something else) will happen, whatever we think. We can try to discover which is true, but it is not something we decide, it is not a preference.

Many people try to approach the question of what is sinful and what is not in different ways, and many people get different answers - but all that means is that many people are wrong, not that the question is on the level of “is dark chocolate or milk chocolate better”. (Milk of course because… ahem.)

But as far as Catholic goes, we get our answers from Church tradition, scripture, and natural law, and to debate a position that Catholicism holds on sin requires an approach from one of these angles.

In general, though, natural law is a good place to start for those who don’t believe in revelation through scripture and tradition, as we tend to think that the natural law contains all of basic morality.

 

[stormcloud]

Do you have any proof of this? How can homosexuality or homosexual marriage be unnatural - homosexuality is part of nature - that is irrefutable

Homosexuality happens in nature, but it’s disordered because it’s incapable of procreation. A simple look at the “plumbing” says it all. No one can control their sexual orientation, but they can control what they do with it. In this case, it’s better to accept it as a cross for the sake of the Kingdom than to act on it and put your eternal soul in grave danger.

 

[doormouse73]

I was raised catholic and may see a lot of what it promoted as wrong or disagree with it, but I never saw it as a church that did not encourage debate or the seeking of truth. I am just looking for answers and conversation about the most basic questions humans ask. If I was born in a different country or to a different family, I may be in a hindu, or jewish forum. But as it stands my search for truth is always going to be rooted in Catholicism and in that respect I consider myself to be in the ‘right’ forum.

You may believe that the Catholic representation of god determines sin, but you must concede that that is debatable and is a matter of opinion. In the UK gay marriage is to become legal and in my opinion not sinful. It would be interesting to see some proof of what you propose

I was raised catholic

and may see a lot of what it promoted as wrong or disagree with it, but I never saw it as a church that did not encourage debate or the seeking of truth. I am just looking for answers and conversation about the most basic questions humans ask. If I was born in a different country or to a different family, I may be in a hindu, or jewish forum. But as it stands my search for truth is always going to be rooted in Catholicism and in that respect I consider myself to be in the ‘right’ forum.

then if you were raised Catholic shouldnt you know what the Catholic Church teaches and stands by??

You may believe that the Catholic representation of god determines sin, but you must concede that that is debatable and is a matter of opinion.

In the UK gay marriage is to become legal

and in my opinion not sinful. It would be interesting to see some proof of what you propose.

who says so? it has not been passed yet.

Originally Posted by aprilfloyd
Homosexuality is OK, it’s just that some christians and non-christians insist on denying them equal rights in society and proclaiming it is somehow wrong - sexuality is not a choice it is genetic and normal

the priests that have been in the child abuse cases are 90%+ homosexual…so ive been told on another thread… could you please answer me why they are doing this to young boys? like you said you are gay from the start.so you are gay then become a priest…not become a priest and become gay,thats right isnt it?

 

[doormouse73]

…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

april

the argument that homosexuality is against natural law would need to be shown - not the other way round. Homosexuality pre-dates the catholic church.

You seem to be laboring under the illusion that because a thing is practiced, it is automatically natural.

Do you think that becasue slavery was practiced pre-dating the Catholic Church, it must therefore be natural?

And do I really have to point out to you that slavery has always been considered unnatural except by those who practiced it and therefore need to justify it as natural?

 

[Bookcat]

No there is not a Catholic case for attempted “same -sex marriage”.

Anymore then there is a mathematical case for a square circle.

Period.

 

[buffalo]

Rubbish.

Could you choose to become homosexual? You could wilfully act in such a way but it would not be something you would be comfortable with and you would not perceive any sexual attraction to persons of your own gender.

There is no gay gene. The key is found in early childhood and trauma.

Dr. Nicolosi

 

[fix]

According to this article, there is little scriptural basis for opposing same-sex marriage.

lifesitenews.com/news/renegade-nun-priest-present-a-catholic-case-for-same-sex-marriage/

Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?

What passages, if any, in scripture would support or oppose the view of the authors?

Those two still pushing dissent.

 

[aprilfloyd]

Thanks for the reply.

I read the piece but it did not cite much if any proof. It reads as a list of unsubstantiated claims and is rather bigoted and prejudiced

The article does indicate that the church teaches that violations are always violations of divine law and natural law. I assume by divine law it means the catholic interpretation of it.

Natural law is very subjective and a homosexual will ‘perceive intuitively’ that his partner is another man not a woman and in accordance with natural law

The section equating homosexuality with bestiality is repugnant and it is hard to imagine a loving god holding such a view. That passage appears to me written by a homophobic person with an axe to grind.

The section ‘I was born this way’ is difficult to make any sense of at all. Homosexuals are developed and born into the world in the same ‘natural’ way as any one else.
How can it be anything other than natural, to be homosexual?

It read like a Nazi pseudo science document. Quite shocking - the dark side of catholicism on display

My opinion is this type of thing is where catholicism diverges from anything one would consider godly

---

I forgot to mention, in my previous post I was referring to criminal law and not civil law - thanks

 

[Steveabrous]

I was raised catholic and may see a lot of what it promoted as wrong or disagree with it, but I never saw it as a church that did not encourage debate or the seeking of truth. I am just looking for answers and conversation about the most basic questions humans ask. If I was born in a different country or to a different family, I may be in a hindu, or jewish forum. But as it stands my search for truth is always going to be rooted in Catholicism and in that respect I consider myself to be in the ‘right’ forum.

You may believe that the Catholic representation of god determines sin, but you must concede that that is debatable and is a matter of opinion. In the UK gay marriage is to become legal and in my opinion not sinful. It would be interesting to see some proof of what you propose

Part, And the biggest, of being Catholic is submitting your opinion to the Magisterium. Because the basic belief in Catholicism is that the Holy spirit guides it to truth. And no when the Magisterium speaks infalibly on a matter, as it has on this matter, it is not a matter of opinion or debatable. It is settled. If you believe it is just a matter of opinion, then you reject one of the basic beliefs in Catholicism. That the holy spirit guides the church to truth. Which is o.k for you if that’s how you want to believe. But don’t expect faithful Catholics to agree with that.

." In the UK gay marriage is to become legal" and? the civil authorities do not speak God’s truth the church does.

“It would be interesting to see some proof of what you propose” What do you mean? that the Magisterium is guided to truth by the holy spirit and has spoken on this matter? if you mean that that is not what the Catholic church believes then read your Catechism or the many tracts on this site. If you mean that it is not true that God guides the church to truth. the truth of Catholic doctrine is not open for debate on this forum. It is presummed to be true. Read the rules of the forum. That is why I said Maybe you are on the wrong forum

 

[fix]

Homosexuality is no more a sin that heterosexuality - it depends on one’s viewpoint - but to go as far as some on this forum to ‘declare’ it abnormal or against god is verging on if not is bigotry

People rebel against the truth because they want validation. They hate to be reminded that their acts are contrary to nature. They want to silence those that still speak about moral truth thinking it will calm their conscience.