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aprilfloyd
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Hi I didn’t see that part - sorry - but there are many people of different religious persusasions so how can they accept catholic doctrine to be true or presume it. I am confused
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adrift
Guest
It is contrary to natural law. In nature you will find homosexual behavior, only when the opposite sex is not available. I have seen a turkey try to mate with a chicken but bring on the female turkey and there is no competition. This argument is moot since the proper terminology is not nature but natural.
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Steveabrous
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I supposed apologetics is the way to go. Apologetics doesn’t mean “I’m sorry that my position offends you.” it means “I’m sorry you’ve been wrong all this time”. We are to give people the truth. They either accept or reject it.Hi I didn’t see that part - sorry - but there are many people of different religious persusasions so how can they accept catholic doctrine to be true or presume it. I am confused
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fix
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Being found in the natural world is not evidence it is consistent with man’s nature. Eating one’s young is found in nature.
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
It’s not the most detailed, I’ll agree, but it hits the highlights.
Well yes, but where definitive Church teaching exists, we believe there is no difference. Non-Catholics obviously disagree, so this is why I suggest (unless you want to go to the base and debate Catholicism as a whole) that the natural law angle be used, since natural law is that portion of divine law which is accessible to reason alone without recourse to revelation, and so you don’t run into the issue of impasse of “God said it,” “No He didn’t.”
It’s not subjective, people just disagree over it. Either an argument is reasonable, or it’s not, and either I think it is or I don’t. Disagreement reflects on the people who disagree, not on the nature of the answer itself.
The question is: why do you find it repugnant? I suspect the answer is because you find bestiality repugnant, and you don’t find homosexual behavior repugnant.
But this is only based on what makes you uncomfortable, not on any rational argument. The question is: are they at all similar?
And the answer is, whether we like it or not, that yes they are. In simple terms, they both take an action whose purpose is procreation, discard this purpose, and use it for pleasure and emotional reasons only.
As for a loving God not making that comparison: well, I’m not going to comment on whether they’re equally bad. I would think not, but that isn’t the key point. The point is that, from God’s perspective, He has given us a gift and in both cases we misuse it, strip it of its purpose and hence prime goodness and turn it to be used for ourselves only. It is an insult to God to misuse the gifts He gives us. Whether or not it makes us happy does not come into play at this level.
Which is not to say that God does not have sympathy (and certainly not to say that we should not have sympathy) for those with disordered desires and who act on them (ie. everyone, though not often that desire). People and their actions are separate things. But the actions themselves - bad.
First, natural is much closer to meaning “logical consequence of ideal situation” than “happens”. Cancer, for example, happens. But it is a disease, something that should not exist, a damaging thing. So when we say homosexuality is not natural, that is not the same as saying that it is synthetic, so to speak, only that it would not occur in an undamaged universe.
There are two points to that section:
- Homosexuality could be involuntary, but still be caused by other environmental factors, so saying “I did not choose it” is not the same as saying “it is built in to my very nature”.
- Even if the desire to do something is something we are born with, that does not mean that the doing of the thing is ok.
And my question to you would be "where do you get the idea of what you think should be considered godly?
By civil law, I meant law created by a government, including criminal law. So a nation may not make an action illegal that is wrong, and this may be good, or a nation may make actions illegal which are necessary, and that is bad, etc.
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Charlemagne_II
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Cavalierly killing one’s unborn child also is found in nature. Does that mean it is natural?
Why is this principle so difficult to grasp? If everything that is, is natural, and we should accept it and tolerate it and even validate it by law, then wait until the next Hitler comes along.
Why is this principle so difficult to grasp? If everything that is, is natural, and we should accept it and tolerate it and even validate it by law, then wait until the next Hitler comes along.
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edwest2
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mountee
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A Catholic point of view in this discussion refers to the teachings and doctrine of the Catholic Church, not a personal opinion. A person may be, and many are, a practicing, homosexual Catholic in full communion with the Church and Her laws. But, they are celibate if they are following the Church’s laws.
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aprilfloyd
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Thanks for the long reply to my points, I enjoy reading them.
What is confusing to me is how - you can equate bestiality to homosexuality - at all.
If you equate them that way, then you also equate heterosexuality with bestiality. I hope I am misunderstanding you. Where is the love for your fellow man - irrespective of his homosexuality.
I don’t understand why cancer should not exist? Nor how the leaps are being made to condemn homosexuality, but not heterosexuality. If I swapped the words and used
homosexuality where you use heterosexuality, you would rightly suggest that my arguments are irrational. Why do you segregate human sexuality this way.
I use the term in the sense of good .e. that is honest, fair, reasonable, tolerant, upstanding, decent-that type of thing as opposed to the narrow
religious sense of the word. We get these ideas from parents, educators and experience.
Charlemagne - I watched a documentary where hungry polar bears would eat young polar bears - nature is raw in tooth and claw and natural
What is confusing to me is how - you can equate bestiality to homosexuality - at all.
If you equate them that way, then you also equate heterosexuality with bestiality. I hope I am misunderstanding you. Where is the love for your fellow man - irrespective of his homosexuality.
I don’t understand why cancer should not exist? Nor how the leaps are being made to condemn homosexuality, but not heterosexuality. If I swapped the words and used
homosexuality where you use heterosexuality, you would rightly suggest that my arguments are irrational. Why do you segregate human sexuality this way.
I use the term in the sense of good .e. that is honest, fair, reasonable, tolerant, upstanding, decent-that type of thing as opposed to the narrow
religious sense of the word. We get these ideas from parents, educators and experience.
Charlemagne - I watched a documentary where hungry polar bears would eat young polar bears - nature is raw in tooth and claw and natural
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buffalo
Guest
Creation is now in a fallen state.
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adrift
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Natural Law requites a male and female. Having both sexes goes against natural law. It is natural to have a Mother and Father. You can’t produce a child without both. Sex in nature is about continuing a species. You can’t produce with two of the same sex. Don’t confuse nature with natural.
I couldn’t find the section you are writing about??? Where is it?
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Charlemagne_II
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april
**Charlemagne - I watched a documentary where hungry polar bears would eat young polar bears - nature is raw in tooth and claw and natural **
We are not polar bears. If hungry, would you eat your child?
And would you consider it natural to do so?
**Charlemagne - I watched a documentary where hungry polar bears would eat young polar bears - nature is raw in tooth and claw and natural **
We are not polar bears. If hungry, would you eat your child?
And would you consider it natural to do so?
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Bookcat
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Confusing “what happens in nature” and “the natural moral law”april
**Charlemagne - I watched a documentary where hungry polar bears would eat young polar bears - nature is raw in tooth and claw and natural **
We are not polar bears. If hungry, would you eat your child?
And would you consider it natural to do so?
Two very different realities.
No polar bears involved in the latter.
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Bookcat
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Confusing “what happens in nature” and “the natural moral law”
Two very different realities.
No polar bears involved in the latter.
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aprilfloyd
Guest
Where can I get a copy of the ‘natural moral law’
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
Cancer should not exist because it damages people and causes them to cease to focus as they should. It’s a disease. It’s a bad thing. It occurs in nature, but man in his “natural state” does not have cancer.
I’m just going to reiterate: “natural” is not what happens in the jungle in this sense. “Natural” is, more or less, the ideal state for everything to function. Homosexuality impedes the function of sex, procreation, whereas heterosexuality does not. Which is not to say that there are not disorders within heterosexuality (unbalances and the like), only that heterosexuality is not itself disordered. Likewise, acts of bestiality take sexuality out of its natural environs (more or less, the place where it “works” under ideal circumstances) and puts it somewhere else for pleasure and emotional motivations of the person.
So it is natural to have 2 arms and 2 legs. A human being naturally has 2 arms and 2 legs. A person born missing an arm is born with a deformity, and unfortunate condition that means that while he is certainly a human, and while his affliction may have happened because of natural causes (or perhaps not, it doesn’t really matter), his state is not the natural human state.
Of course, it is not sinful to only have one arm, though I think it would be sinful to stick your arm in a meat grinder for no apparent reason. But neither are we saying that it is sinful to have homosexual desires, though we do say it would be sinful to foster them or act on them.
It is natural to have 2 arms. It is natural to want to use one’s sexuality in a way ordered towards reproduction.
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Charlemagne_II
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april
Here is what you asked for as it is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church
THE NATURAL MORAL LAW
1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:
1955 The “divine and natural” law6 shows man the way to follow so as to practice the good and attain his end. The natural law states the first and essential precepts which govern the moral life. It hinges upon the desire for God and submission to him, who is the source and judge of all that is good, as well as upon the sense that the other is one’s equal. Its principal precepts are expressed in the Decalogue. This law is called “natural,” not in reference to the nature of irrational beings, but because reason which decrees it properly belongs to human nature:
1956 The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:
1957 Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles.
1958 The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:
1959 The natural law, the Creator’s very good work, provides the solid foundation on which man can build the structure of moral rules to guide his choices. It also provides the indispensable moral foundation for building the human community. Finally, it provides the necessary basis for the civil law with which it is connected, whether by a reflection that draws conclusions from its principles, or by additions of a positive and juridical nature.
1960 The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known "by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error."12 The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit.
This also from the Catechism:
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Here is what you asked for as it is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church
THE NATURAL MORAL LAW
1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:
Code:
The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted.5
Code:
Where then are these rules written, if not in the book of that light we call the truth? In it is written every just law; from it the law passes into the heart of the man who does justice, not that it migrates into it, but that it places its imprint on it, like a seal on a ring that passes onto wax, without leaving the ring.7 The natural law is nothing other than the light of understanding placed in us by God; through it we know what we must do and what we must avoid. God has given this light or law at the creation.8
Code:
For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense . . . . To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely.91958 The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:
Code:
Theft is surely punished by your law, O Lord, and by the law that is written in the human heart, the law that iniquity itself does not efface.111960 The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known "by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error."12 The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit.
This also from the Catechism:
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
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aprilfloyd
Guest
Iron Donkey, I don’t follow the above - ‘cancer should not exist because it damages people’’ I am no pathologist, but can’t see how a disease can be ‘bad’. My sister was a ‘natural’ human being who died of cancer, she was not during her illness in an ‘unnatural state’
Homosexuality as far as I can see does not impede procreation at all. Heterosexuals can procreate and so can homosexuals. Homosexuality has never stopped humans procreating and human evolution continuing and populations growing.
Before laws where enacted many homosexuals - lived in ‘traditional families’ and had children
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aprilfloyd
Guest
Sorry my mistake, I was thinking of natural law in the wider sense and forgot that this forum - would have answers from the narrower catholic perspective.
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