‘A Catholic case for same-sex marriage’

[OxygenMan]

Why? Do you think we get morality from god? Surely not.

How do you draw that conclusion? I think you are confusing religion with morality.

How do you draw that conclusion? Why can’t science look at why and how humans have established what we call morality?

Surely yes, I do believe we get morality from God.
I am not confusing religion with morality. Morality comes from religion or philosophy.
I drew that conclusion as I said. Science does not say why things happen nor whether certain actions should be taken or not taken. It only explains how they work.
How do you decide whether something is right or wrong? Do you have a philosophical foundation for that decision, or do you base it on what society tells you?
There is no part of science that says homosexuals should or should not be married. Science alone can’t make that decision.

 

[Lochias]

‘sinful acts’ are what the church calls them, but that does not make the wrong.

God’s authority makes them wrong. We aren’t the declarers of what is right and wrong, God is. We’re just passing along the message. Wrong is wrong, even if everything thinks otherwise. Right is right, even if no-one believes in the Truth.

I can see it will be a long time coming, but I believe in my fellow man, and future generations will be less judgemental

You are right, for all generations will one day call God blessed, and those who chose Him will be with Him.

That seems a very strange thing to say. But as you say I cannot change your mind

You have no argument, other than to say “that seems strange.” You are arguing purely from an emotional point of view, with no logic, no facts, no proof, no theology, and no science to back it up. I think your argument is simply a complaint because things aren’t the way you’d like them to be.

Science is the search for answers and does not pontificate.

The hell it doesn’t. Some people liken itself to a god, knowing all there is to know and slamming those who dare to disagree…until it’s suddenly discovered that science had it wrong all along.

If something turns out to be wrong one of the strengths of science is it can acknowledge that and move on.

Science is not God. God does not make mistakes. We follow what God has told us to follow. Nothing more, nothing less. Science is simply an observation of how the world works. It holds no power, and ultimately dies in the minds of men when they die.

Religion does not does not search for answers or proof - but just makes unverifiable and unsubstantiated claims.

They’re only unverifiable and unsubstantiated to those who refuse to learn. 1 billion Catholics worldwide can’t be wrong.

Your last sentence is funny.

The caliber of this debate shines forth one again. This is becoming ludicrous.

I am trying to listen to what you are saying, but your view just seems bigoted towards homosexuals

If you were really trying to listen, there wouldn’t have been a “but” at all. Listening requires periods of thinking and not responding out of sheer emotion and discomfort.

 

[aprilfloyd]

Surely yes, I do believe we get morality from God.
I am not confusing religion with morality. Morality comes from religion or philosophy.
I drew that conclusion as I said. Science does not say why things happen nor whether certain actions should be taken or not taken. It only explains how they work.
How do you decide whether something is right or wrong? Do you have a philosophical foundation for that decision, or do you base it on what society tells you?
There is no part of science that says homosexuals should or should not be married. Science alone can’t make that decision.

I don’t believe man gets morality from God. That would imply that we are not able to be moral without a god. Of course we can be morality - man had morals before Jesus was born.

Science can and does show us why things happen. There are causes and effects

Right and Wrong is subjective, but human beings are moral by nature and have created laws and codes to live by. We call this natural law as opposed to Christian natural law

It is a matter for governments to enact laws on marriage, just like in the UK where gay marriage is to be made legal as it is in other countries

 

[OxygenMan]

I don’t believe man gets morality from God. That would imply that we are not able to be moral without a god. Of course we can be morality - man had morals before Jesus was born.

Science can and does show us why things happen. There are causes and effects

Right and Wrong is subjective, but human beings are moral by nature and have created laws and codes to live by. We call this natural law as opposed to Christian natural law

It is a matter for governments to enact laws on marriage, just like in the UK where gay marriage is to be made legal as it is in other countries

You are right; without God, right and wrong are entirely subjective. So there is no true morality. Therefore, you can’t say it is “right” for homosexuals to marry, or “wrong” for them to not marry. Nothing can be moral by nature alone, because that implies the existence of good and evil.
If all is subjective, there is no good or evil. What is good for one would be evil for another.

 

[buffalo]

I don’t believe man gets morality from God. That would imply that we are not able to be moral without a god. Of course we can be morality - man had morals before Jesus was born.

Science can and does show us why things happen. There are causes and effects

Right and Wrong is subjective, but human beings are moral by nature and have created laws and codes to live by. We call this natural law as opposed to Christian natural law

It is a matter for governments to enact laws on marriage, just like in the UK where gay marriage is to be made legal as it is in other countries

let’s get down to basics.

I believe it is moral to murder you.

 

[aprilfloyd]

let’s get down to basics.

I believe it is moral to murder you.

Why?

 

[Lochias]

I don’t believe man gets morality from God. That would imply that we are not able to be moral without a god. Of course we can be morality - man had morals before Jesus was born.

And God created man.

Science can and does show us why things happen. There are causes and effects

So?

Right and Wrong is subjective, but human beings are moral by nature and have created laws and codes to live by. We call this natural law as opposed to Christian natural law

If Right and Wrong are subjective, have been and will always will be, why is man moral by nature at all? In a world where Right and Wrong are subjective, morality would be a weakness, not a strength.

It is a matter for governments to enact laws on marriage, just like in the UK where gay marriage is to be made legal as it is in other countries

Only in a world where Right and Wrong are subjective. No such world exists. You are living in a fantasy.

 

[buffalo]

Why?

Because you are in my way. Because I am hungry. Because I just plain don’t like you.

 

[aprilfloyd]

And God created man.

— I think you will find that man created gods

If Right and Wrong are subjective, have been and will always will be, why is man moral by nature at all? In a world where Right and Wrong are subjective, morality would be a weakness, not a strength.

It’s a good scientific question that - Why have we evolved a sense of morality?

You are living in a fantasy - Fantastic

 

[Lochias]

Lochias;10385994:

And God created man.

— I think you will find that man created gods

I think you can’t prove one iota of that sentence, and it’s just something someone else said to you. “O ye of little faith…”

If Right and Wrong are subjective, have been and will always will be, why is man moral by nature at all? In a world where Right and Wrong are subjective, morality would be a weakness, not a strength.

It’s a good scientific question that - Why have we evolved a sense of morality?

Actually, it’s an absurd question, for without morality we would have killed each other millions of years ago. Try again.

You are living in a fantasy - Fantastic

Haven’t seen many that will flat-out cop to it. That’s impressive, if incredibly depressing.

 

[aprilfloyd]

I contend, we have morality and don’t need a god to create it for us.
You have such a pessimistic view about man

 

[OxygenMan]

I contend, we have morality and don’t need a god to create it for us.
You have such a pessimistic view about man

How do you decide what is moral and immoral?

 

[aprilfloyd]

Of the thousands of God’s I can’t think of one that man did not invent

 

[aprilfloyd]

How do you decide what is moral and immoral?

You have that ability, go on try it out

 

[Lochias]

I contend, we have morality and don’t need a god to create it for us.

But you yourself have said that Right and Wrong are subjective. It’s ludicrous to imagine that a society that had a subjective view of Right and Wrong would suddenly develop morality on their own. It wouldn’t happen in a world where Right could be Right one minute, and Wrong the next, depending on who you talk to.

That’s a bigger leap of faith than any Catholic has ever had to make. That’s believing in an impossibility. That’s believing in a square circle, because it’s more comfortable for you to hide from the objective Truth that actually exists.

You have such a pessimistic view about man

I could say the same exactly about you. You’re calling 1 billion people pessimistic bigots, with no proof and no right. Not a lot of faith in your fellow man, eh?

 

[OxygenMan]

You have that ability, go on try it out

There really is no need to treat me like a child. If I alone have the power to decide what is moral and immoral, by the way, that means I could do whatever I so desired. I could murder someone and say “I find this moral”.

 

[buffalo]

Lochias;10385994:

And God created man.

— I think you will find that man created gods

If Right and Wrong are subjective, have been and will always will be, why is man moral by nature at all? In a world where Right and Wrong are subjective, morality would be a weakness, not a strength.

It’s a good scientific question that - Why have we evolved a sense of morality?

You are living in a fantasy - Fantastic

Why didn’t the first atheist murder the second?

 

[Lochias]

Of the thousands of God’s I can’t think of one that man did not invent

That’s because you’ve refused to educate yourself on the matter. A person who lives in a box their whole life doesn’t have much to reason with when it comes to the outside world.

 

[buffalo]

I contend, we have morality and don’t need a god to create it for us.
You have such a pessimistic view about man

There is not a plausible atheist explanation. Now if you want to introduce purpose into the discussion I am game.

 

[Lochias]

You have that ability, go on try it out

Fine. I believe it is moral to enslave you and all of your family and friends, because that is what I think is Right.