‘Callous, cold-hearted’: Pope’s commissioner says George Pell has to go

  • Thread starter Thread starter Peebo
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Pell is also a known traditionalist who is fond of the Traditional Latin Mass. Another No-no.
 
From the link in the OP:
In 2002, Anthony and Chrissie Foster said they had approached Pell, then-Archbishop of Melbourne, about the repeated sexual abuse of their daughters’ Emma and Katie by their school priest. Emma later took her own life.
The couple showed Pell a photo of Emma on her confirmation day and one after she had self-harmed, and he reportedly said: “She’s changed, hasn’t she?”
Pell denied having seen the photo in 2002, but in 2013 he said he probably had, and simply hadn’t had “a chance for a considered response”.
“Those photographs, they are not something that you would forget,” said Saunders, calling Pell a “massive thorn in the side” of the Pope.
It seems that Cardinal has had problems with memory before: youtube.com/watch?v=ZULqryNKpME
 
I have found details of the Foster’s complaint. (PDF). I have spent 30 minutes perusing the document and I’m feeling physically sick. The relevant parts are copied below.

VERY DISTURBING CONTENT BELOW THIS LINE, PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK
TRANSCRIPT
FAMILY AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE
Inquiry into the handling of child abuse by religious and other organisations
Melbourne — 23 November 2012
Members
Mrs A. Coote Ms B. Halfpenny
Ms G. Crozier Mr F. McGuire
Mr D. O’Brien Mr N. Wakeling
Chair: Ms G. Crozier
Deputy Chair: Mr F. McGuire
Staff
Executive Officer: Dr J. Bush
Research Officer: Ms V. Finn
Witnesses
Mr A. Foster,
Mrs C. Foster,
Ms K. Foster, and
Ms A. Foster.
In March 1996, when in an adolescent psychiatric unit, Emma, aged 14, disclosed that Father O’Donnell had sexually assaulted her. Fifteen months later Katie also disclosed sexual assaults by Father O’Donnell. Less than two years later, in 1999, Katie began binge drinking to obtain respite from memories of her assaults and was hit by a car while crossing a road. She was drunk at the time. She spent 12 months in hospital and still receives 24-hour care. Emma took drugs in an attempt to escape her memories of the abuse, but took her own life at 26 years of age in 2008. She had led a life of torment and self-destruction.
When the meeting was almost finished, Anthony passed to Archbishop Pell the confirmation picture, to which he commented:
‘That’s nice’.
Then Anthony gave him the image of Emma with bloodied wrists and arms —
distressed, sitting on a bench in our backyard.
I held my breath, hopeful that we could reach this man on a deeper level and he could offer us some sympathy, or a display of surprise perhaps, something, anything.
Archbishop Pell, however, peered at it for a moment and with an unchanged expression said casually: ‘Mm, she’s changed, hasn’t she?’. He handed the picture back to us. We couldn’t believe his response. He was the first person we’d shown the image to. It was
too distressing for anyone we knew to see. But it did not disturb the archbishop. Not a grimace or a frown.
After Archbishop George Pell’s introduction of the Melbourne Response in 1996, Peter O’Callaghan determined that Emma had been assaulted by O’Donnell. After Chrissie and I appeared at the compensation panel, George Pell’s solicitors offered her a $50 000 ex gratia payment. The only other option was to take legal action, which in the words of the then and current Church lawyer, Richard Leder, would be strenuously defended. Archbishop Denis Hart’s lawyers later claimed that the assaults on Emma and Katie had never occurred.
However, the pain and suffering for Emma continued. The 10-year legal battle had taken a toll on all of us, and she continued to self-harm and take whatever drugs helped numb the thoughts of what had happened. In 2007 she admitted herself to a St John of God rehabilitation centre in Dandenong, where an unqualified counsellor, a nun, and other staff convinced Emma that she and Chrissie were to blame for the sexual assaults. Emma was discharged on 3 January 2008. She died by her own hand the next day.
Mr O’BRIEN — Thank you for that extra information. The last one is a matter that you have touched on in your evidence today, which is: why did Cardinal Pell on 60 Minutes claim to not remember you providing him with the photograph of your daughter, Emma, with her wrists slashed? I had read about it, but I must say I think for all of us, and I think I can speak for anyone who sees that photo, it is not something you can easily forget. It is very disturbing and obviously very sad for you, and you have not had a satisfactory answer to that.
Mrs FOSTER — Yes.
Mr O’BRIEN — Tell me if you have. That is why I am asking you now before we take it further.
Mrs FOSTER — After I had written the book, a journalist in NSW, up in Sydney, Linda Morris, interviewed George Pell. In that interview she asked him about the photo, and he admitted that he remembered seeing it. So that was eight years after he nationally denied seeing it, on 60 Minutes. He admitted in that newspaper that he had seen it. I almost brought it in today, but I did not. Yes, he has admitted, eight years later, that he remembers the photo.
 
I have read Cardinal Pell’s resonse. I must say i find the timing of this to be curious considering the Cardinals conservative stance in regards to the upcoming synod. There are forces at work here, and the entire situation leaves me feeling cold.
 
I have read Cardinal Pell’s resonse.
Me too. I found it convincing.

There is now a string of complainants against Cardinal Pell, with similar stories over many years, and also a string of convincing denials from His Eminence.

There also has been at least one occasion when his memory has been found to be faulty.

The Royal Commission will, I expect, summon him again, and get to the truth of the matter.
 
I have read Cardinal Pell’s resonse. I must say i find the timing of this to be curious considering the Cardinals conservative stance in regards to the upcoming synod. There are forces at work here, and the entire situation leaves me feeling cold.
So maybe if the Cardinal was a progressive you would feel more comfortable with the timing…maybe the forces at work here is the Holy Spirit bringing the truth to light and nothing to do with the upcoming synod…after all…Pope Francis only last year appointed Cardinal Pell to head up the Secretariat of the Economy…one of the most poweful positions in the Vatican…knowing full well the Cardinals conservative stance…I say that just in case some conservative Catholics are implying that Pope Francis is deliberately removing conservative Cardinals from the synod…which they are implying by the way…and no…I’m not a progressive Catholic
 
Excerpts:
In a statement Cardinal Pell’s spokesman said: “The false and misleading claims made against His Eminence are outrageous.
“From his earliest actions as an archbishop, Cardinal Pell has taken a strong stand against child sexual abuse and put in place processes to enable complaints to be brought forward and independently investigated.
“Cardinal Pell has never met Mr Saunders, who seems to have formed his strong opinions without ever having spoken to His Eminence.
“In light of all of the available material, including evidence from the cardinal under oath, there is no excuse for broadcasting incorrect and prejudicial material.
“In the circumstances, the cardinal is left no alternative but to consult with his legal advisers.”
catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/06/01/cardinal-pell-consults-lawyers-after-vatican-adviser-calls-him-almost-sociopathic/
In the response, posted on the 60 Minutes website, the spokesperson for Cardinal Pell said: "From the promotional material issued by 60 Minutes, it seems clear Mr Saunders is not well informed about the claims made against Cardinal Pell in the Ballarat hearings of the Royal Commission and the fact that no new material emerged during recent hearings.
"Many of the issues were addressed in the final report of the 2013 Victorian Parliamentary Inquiry where there are no adverse findings against Cardinal Pell. These old and repeated allegations have been addressed many times by the Cardinal since 2002.
“As was pointed out in a recent statement by the Cardinal, he has never condoned or protected offenders, has never condoned or participated in moving known offenders, and did not at any time attempt to bribe David Ridsdale, whose story has varied many times over the years.”
cathnews.com/cathnews/21573-pope-s-adviser-says-cardinal-pell-s-position-untenable
 
Full statement from Cardinal George Pell
Like everyone who has been following the Royal Commission’s hearings in Ballarat this week, I have been horrified once again by survivors’ accounts of the abuse they have suffered. Also the terrible impact it has had on their lives and families and the Catholic community of Ballarat. The suicide of so many victims is an enormous tragedy. The crimes committed against them by priests and brothers are profoundly evil and completely repugnant to me.
A number of claims have been made concerning my own response during these years. Many of the issues have already been addressed by me in the Victorian Parliamentary Inquiry in 2013, and my submission to that inquiry, and a transcript of my evidence, are available on the Victorian Parliament’s website. I stand by the statements I made to the Victorian Parliament.
I also note that under its terms of reference the Royal Commission can access all material from previous inquiries, including the Victorian Inquiry, which dealt with these matters extensively.
The Commission stated today that it will request a statement from me.
Over the last 24 hours I have been accused of being complicit in the moving of a known paedophile, of ignoring a victim’s complaint, and of bribery. These matters again require an immediate response and it is important to correct the record particularly given the false and misleading headlines.
Firstly, while out of the greatest respect for Mr Green, as I have stated previously, I have no recollection of a conversation with Mr Green in 1974, more than 40 years ago. Having recently read his statement to the Commission I still cannot remember Mr. Green or the conversation. To the best of my belief, this conversation did not happen. I stand by my previous statements.
Secondly, I never moved Ridsdale out of Mortlake Parish. I never moved him anywhere. I would never have condoned or participated in a decision to transfer Ridsdale in the knowledge that he had abused children, and I did not do so. I was a member of the College of Consultors for Ballarat from 1977 until I left Ballarat in 1984. Membership of the Consultors gave me no authority over Gerald Ridsdale or any other priest in Ballarat.
My recollection is that Bishop Mulkearns did not raise any paedophilia allegations against Ridsdale at the Consultors meetings I attended, or at any time before or after such meetings.
Contrary to some media reports, minutes of the meetings of the Consultors are not “secret” and were produced to the Victorian Parliamentary Inquiry which did not raise them in the hearings or in their final report. Indeed, I addressed these meetings in my submission to the Victorian Inquiry.
Finally, I was and remain extremely sympathetic to David Ridsdale who because of his uncle suffered horrible abuse. I continue to regret the misunderstanding between us. At no time did I attempt to bribe David Ridsdale or his family or offer any financial inducements for him to be silent. At the time of our discussion the police were already aware of allegations against Gerald Ridsdale and were investigating. Then, and now, I supported these police investigations. I have previously made a sworn denial of these allegations and I reiterate that denial.
I am committed to complete cooperation with the Royal Commission. I will address in full all matters it wishes to raise in any statement requested from me before I make any further comment.
I have the deepest sympathy for the victims of abuse, their families and the community of Ballarat for what they have suffered. Once again, I will answer allegations and criticisms of my behaviour openly and honestly.
catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/05/21/cardinal-pell-i-did-not-try-to-bribe-child-abuse-victim/#.VWw4uqrlJaA.twitter
 
Since when did it become a sign of deceit to honestly admit you can’t recall? (Events from 1974)

Does anyone want George Pell to perjure himself by guessing or ‘making up’ testimony which could help his own reputation?

Telling the truth and admitting he can’t recall harms his reputation. So why would he do that? And yet he will tell the truth nonetheless because he is a man of God.
 
I have read Cardinal Pell’s resonse. I must say i find the timing of this to be curious considering the Cardinals conservative stance in regards to the upcoming synod. There are forces at work here, and the entire situation leaves me feeling cold.
This has nothing to do with Pell’s comments regarding abuse. If they were that hard-core, this person would not be a Bishop.

nytimes.com/2015/03/22/world/americas/angry-protest-over-bishop-juan-barros-in-chile.html

Pell was rather… outspoken… about the shenanigans at last year’s synod. If I were a betting man, this would be a way to send a message.
 
Please note that there are 3 separate issues here:
  1. Whether Cdl Pell is personally liable for covering up Gerard Ridsdale when he was an active pedo.
It seems that there is no hard evidence to implicate Cdl Pell. That said, Ricksdale himself said that his pedophilic activities were known to Bp Mulkearns, who consulted with Pell, and Pell and Ridsdale were at one point living at the same parish. This is enough to assert guilt by association, regardless of Pell’s actual involvement in cover-up or lack thereof. The situation is made worse by the fact that then-bishop Pell allowed himself to be photographed accompanying Ridsdale to court:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
  1. Whether Cdl Pell attempted to bribe David Ricksdale.
Again, there is no hard proof, because there is no recording of conversation. However, this would fit with Pell’s later modus operandi in handling victims (see below). Plus, in TV interview, Ricksdale comes across as reliable, while Pell is caugh, ahem, having memory issues:

youtube.com/watch?v=ajWT4BERoHc
  1. Whether Cdl Pell is ‘callous’
Mr. Saunder’s claim of Cdl Pell as ‘callous’ refers to the testimony of the parents of Emma Foster, which I have linked above. The point of contention between Fosters and Pell was the amount of compensation. Pell offered them $50,000, while the Fosters wanted more (the parties eventually settled for $500,000). However, the description of interaction between Fosters and Pell is really chilling. According to Fosters, Pell was shown a photo of Emma after a suicide attempt and reacted with “a sociopathic lack of empathy”.

Plus, when the diocese was sued by one John Ellis in a similar situation, Cdl Pell’s lawyers used a legal strategy later known as Ellis defense, which, despite being ultimately successful, appears to be morally questionable, as Pell’s lawyers essentially argued that the Catholic Church… does not exist:
"In its appeal the trust conceded that an arguable case had been established that the abuse had occurred. However, it alleged that the Catholic Church did not exist in New South Wales as a legal entity. The trust told the court that although it holds all of the Church’s property—and had so at the time that Mr Ellis’ alleged he was abused—that it was not responsible for the conduct of any member of the clergy…The trust submitted that, in effect, the church could not be sued as, in law, it did not exist.”
It appears that the Pope’s commissioner is saying that Cdl Pell creates a PR problem, so to say.
 
So maybe if the Cardinal was a progressive you would feel more comfortable with the timing…maybe the forces at work here is the Holy Spirit bringing the truth to light and nothing to do with the upcoming synod…after all…Pope Francis only last year appointed Cardinal Pell to head up the Secretariat of the Economy…one of the most poweful positions in the Vatican…knowing full well the Cardinals conservative stance…I say that just in case some conservative Catholics are implying that Pope Francis is deliberately removing conservative Cardinals from the synod…which they are implying by the way…and no…I’m not a progressive Catholic
I stand by my statement. Over 13 million us dollars were sent to insure homosexual marriage passed in Ireland. Many progressive elements are busy doing satans work to destroy the world. That this issue is coming to the front now is no coincidence. I expect more of this going forward. Look at the forces lining up against Archbishop Cordileone. Conservative Bishops and Priests are in the cross hairs of the enemy. Faithful Catholics need to wake up and pray. Allot.
] For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places. [13] Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect.
 
Let’s revisit the 2002 interview with the Cardinal: youtube.com/watch?v=ajWT4BERoHc . At 10:50:

INTERVIEWER: Did you offer them 50 thousand dollars to shut up?
PELL: I offered them nothing. …]
INTERVIEWER: [Shows paperwork] You offered them 50 grand to be quiet.
PELL: I offered them 50 grand in compensation according to the publicly acknowledged procedures.
INTERVIEWER: And you swear them to secrecy.
PELL: Well, we asked them to keep…
INTERVIEWER: You swear them, not ask them, you swear them.
PELL: There is a requirement that they don’t talk, although most of them are happy not to.

The 2015 show 9jumpin.com.au/show/60minutes/stories/2015/may/cardinal-pell/ reveals that the above section referred to the Foster case. The 2015 show includes unaired part of the 2002 interview at 10:00, where Cardinal is asked about the photo of Emma after her suicide attempt:

PELL: I’ve never seen the photo…
INTERVIEWER: With the slashed wrists?
PELL: With the slashed wrists.

At 11:04 they show Cardinal’s testimony at the the abuse commission in 2013:

COMMISSIONER: When Christy and Anthony Foster did show you the photograph after their daughter Emma has slashed herself, did you respond, I quote, “Hm, she’s changed, hasn’t she?”
PELL: Um, probably, but let’s put that in the context now that we know that it was an attempt at suicide. You have to understand that the production of this photo was something sudden, I did not have chance to consider response.

Then there is this:

LETTER TO EMMA FOSTER FROM CARDINAL GEORGE PELL [1998]: …] On behalf of the Catholic Church and personally, I apologise to you and to those around you for the wrongs and hurt you have suffered at the hands of Father Kevin O’Donnell. I offer you my prayers.

LETTER TO MR AND MRS FOSTER FROM THE LAWYERS FOR THE CATHOLIC ARCHDIOCESE OF MELBOURNE, 7 MAY, 2004: They do not admit that Emma Foster and/or Katherine Foster were subjected to physical and/or sexual and/or psychological abuse while infants by Kevin O’Donnell.
 
Please note that there are 3 separate issues here:
  1. Whether Cdl Pell is personally liable for covering up Gerard Ridsdale when he was an active pedo.
It seems that there is no hard evidence to implicate Cdl Pell.
It seems???
Hard evidence???

Why not say - NO evidence?
Why slur George Pell with the inference that there may be some kind of “soft” evidence. :mad:
…That said, Ricksdale himself said that his pedophilic activities were known to Bp Mulkearns, who consulted with Pell, and Pell and Ridsdale were at one point living at the same parish. This is enough to assert guilt by association, regardless of Pell’s actual involvement in cover-up or lack thereof.
No it is NOT enough to assert such a disgraceful thing!!!
Guilt by association? Are you for real? :mad:
By your logic, any priest who ever shared any parish with a closet pedophile at any time prior to any eventual court case would be presumed guilty of being an accessory before the fact.
…The situation is made worse by the fact that then-bishop Pell allowed himself to be photographed accompanying Ridsdale to court:
So no catholic clergy should ever be photographed with a criminal?
Have you notified the Vatican of this?
i.tmgrup.com.tr/dailysabah/2014/12/28/1419758336228.jpg
…2. Whether Cdl Pell attempted to bribe David Ricksdale.

Again, there is no hard proof, because there is no recording of conversation.
Again with the “hard proof” / “soft proof” stuff.
And you therefore invite yourself to wade in where there is no evidence and spread inuendo and gossip!
…However, this would fit with Pell’s later modus operandi in handling victims (see below). Plus, in TV interview, Ricksdale comes across as reliable, while Pell is caugh, ahem, having memory issues:
The so-called “modus operandi” as you snidely put it, was an official policy of the church for victims who did NOT want to go to the police.
You can’t have it both ways. If one can accuse clergy of bribing victims to remain silent, what does that say about people who demand money in exchange for their silence?
Why didn’t victims go to the secular authorities? The church under George Pell certainly encouraged them to do so.
…3. Whether Cdl Pell is ‘callous’

Mr. Saunder’s claim of Cdl Pell as ‘callous’ refers to the testimony of the parents of Emma Foster, which I have linked above. The point of contention between Fosters and Pell was the amount of compensation. Pell offered them $50,000, while the Fosters wanted more (the parties eventually settled for $500,000).
The Foster case is very interesting and there are, in my opinion, some anomalies with respect to the apparent delay in reporting of alleged crimes to the police.
As a parent myself, I believe that ANY parent should report the suspected rape of their child IMMEDIATELY and that their failure to do so should be a crime!

No doubt, some fathers (and/or mothers) have their own reasons for not wanting their children to be interviewed by police on a sensitive topic like “inappropriate touching” etc.
…However, the description of interaction between Fosters and Pell is really chilling. According to Fosters, Pell was shown a photo of Emma after a suicide attempt and reacted with “a sociopathic lack of empathy”.
I suppose if you expected $500,000 and only got offered $50,000 you might well call that a ‘lack’ of empathy.

As for me, I would never regard the suicide of my own child as something where cash would be a suitable proxy for “empathy”.
…Plus, when the diocese was sued by one John Ellis in a similar situation, Cdl Pell’s lawyers used a legal strategy later known as Ellis defense which, despite being ultimately successful, appears to be morally questionable, as Pell’s lawyers essentially argued that the Catholic Church… does not exist:
There is nothing morally questionable about the Ellis defense. It is a matter of common law that a collective group of church goers cannot be held financially responsible (vicariously) for the criminal action of a person pretending to be a priest.
In fact, to hold ordinary church goers financially liable for such a law suit would amount to collective punishment of innocent people - and that WOULD be immoral.
…It appears that the Pope’s commissioner is saying that Cdl Pell creates a PR problem, so to say.
For who?
Not for me. I think George Pell is a brave and honest man of God who has done more than any other Australian clergy to fight and purge the church of this filth.

Sure, the anti-RCC crowd have him in their sights.
But that’s not bad PR. That’s just just a cross he has to bear unjustly.
…like every other priest who gets tarred with the same slanderous brush.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top