‘Witch hunts’ rooted in putting laws above God’s truth, pope says

[roseofshannon]

My experience has been the exact opposite.

Here is why I sadly have distrust:

My Dad had affairs and left my Mom after more than 40 years of marriage.

He lives on a golf course and she lives in a mobile home…you do the math. (He told her she wouldn’t get a dime!)

My Mom applied for an annulment but it was denied.

After seeing him and his girlfriend (the one he met in an “anointed moment”, not the earlier one which was “sent by God”) frequently at daily Mass, his pastor told them that since they are clearly in love he would marry them.

So the pastor performed a “Catholic wedding” for them at morning mass–without an annulment.

He has been a leader in the Church for many, many years and has photos of himself kissing Pope JPII’s ring and standing with Cardinal Ratzinger which he loves to share.

He leads a Catholic Men’s Bible Study, in his parish, gives retreats and brings communion to the sick.

As the patriarch of our family with many grandchildren, he is bringing scandal to my kids as well as many others.

I don’t think this new development from Pope Francis will help very much.

Plus I know many who were told by priests in the confessional that pre-marital sex, masturbation, and contraception are not sins and do not need to be confessed.

Pope Francis had an opportunity to promote Natural Family Planning when discussing the Zika virus but allowed for interpretation that contraception could be used instead.

No legalism and witch hunts here.

I love and pray for our Dear Pope Francis and all our priests, but I wonder where the call to repentance is?

In this year of Mercy it is well to remember what the Catechism says:

Please friends, if you see this say a prayer for my Dad and for the priest that “married” them

 

[Pulvis]

It is no accident that the Holy Father gave this homily right after the release of His Exhortation.

 

[Lion_IRC]

VATICAN CITY (CNS) — A heart that clings to the letter of the law is closed to the Holy Spirit and God’s truth, Pope Francis said at morning Mass.

Such hardened hearts often were behind the persecution of innocent men and women seeking to follow God’s will, the pope said April 11 in his homily during Mass in the Domus Sanctae Marthae, where he lives.

The history of the church “tells us of many people who were judged and killed, although they were innocent — judged according to the Word of God, against the Word of God,” he said. “Let’s think about the witch hunts or St. Joan of Arc, many others who were burned, condemned because — according to the judges — they weren’t in line with the Word of God.”

“This is the role model of Jesus, who, in order to be faithful and having obeyed the word of the Father, ends up on the cross,” he said.

cnstopstories.com/2016/04/11/witch-hunts-rooted-in-putting-laws-above-gods-truth-pope-says/

The burning of witches isnt a problem of law. It is a problem of evidence.

When we let murderers and rapists go free it isn’t because our laws forbidding rape and murder are wrong, but because we can’t be sure beyond doubt that they broke the law.
Better that 9 guilty rapists/murderers/witches go free than 1 innocent person go to jail.

I’m afraid I think Francis has been misquoted again. Because the “letter” of the Law is TRUTH!

Let your yes be yes and your no be no…

Not one JOT…

Are they the 10 Commandments or the 10 polite suggestions?

Blaspheming Holy Spirit is either right or wrong - not maybe right or maybe wrong.

I’m sure John The Baptist would have liked a little more ‘wiggle-room’ when dealing with the question of whether Herod had broken the “Letter of The Law”.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Satan-worshipping witch kidnaps two children. Keeps them in a cage. Tortures them. Murders them by throwing them in an oven for the purpose of canibalism…

We don’t need dead-letter legalism or mediaeval lawmakers to tell us what would happen to such a criminal if that crime took place in 21st Century USA.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

The existence of such sites doesn’t change the fact that virtually every survey of what Catholics believe shows a Church that increasingly rejects Traditional teaching on marriage, divorce, contraception, homosexuality, ordination of women, etc.

Seriously. I suspect those of us passionate enough about the Church to post on an online forum are so far off the mainstream Catholic path as to have no clue about what the vast majority of Western Catholics think or do.

Regardless of our views on traditionalists or progressives in the Church, those posting here or reading online publications about the Church are in such a small minority. I don’t believe the 75% or so who do not attend even weekly mass have been pushed or bludgeoned away by the faithful. They likely look to Facebook or CNN for Church news (if they ever do), not Catholics Answers or Rorate Caeli.

I’ve learned to have to not personalize the words of our Bishops too much in a bad way. They all have the overarching message and goals. Pope Francis seems to emphasize the perceived problems with traditionalists or those who, in his view, cling to tightly to the letter of the law. I try and apply what is relevant in his words to my life or weaknesses, and don’t dwell on the rest. It is tough after a while, not to feel like asking “are there other problems in the Church, beyond me and my ilk?” but of course, I know there are.

My concern is that I don’t deep down truly believe that this message is going to bear much fruit or do any good for the Church in the long run, but all I can do is pray and trust God’s long term plan.

 

[dans0622]

The Pope is certainly not desirous of a disposal or disregard of law, in particular the divine law.

“For the law is itself a gift of God which points out the way, a gift for everyone without exception” (Pope Francis, Amoris laetitia, n. 295).

Dan

 

[JimG]

Surely he wasn’t thinking of the Salem witch trials, which had nothing to do with Catholicism.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Surely he wasn’t thinking of the Salem witch trials, which had nothing to do with Catholicism.

Well, I’m not sure about that.

Which burning’s were part of Catholic Church history long before the Reformation.

So, what they took to Salem had its roots in the past.

Jim

 

[JimG]

Well, I’m not sure about that.

Which burning’s were part of Catholic Church history long before the Reformation.

So, what they took to Salem had its roots in the past.

Jim

But the Reformation years sent the witch trial frequency way up, because the reformers, particularly in Germany and France were more serious about witches than the Catholics. Odd that the reformation years caused an increase in the number of witch trials–by Protestants.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But the Reformation years sent the witch trial frequency way up, because the reformers, particularly in Germany and France were more serious about witches than the Catholics. Odd that the reformation years caused an increase in the number of witch trials–by Protestants.

Not sure it actually sent witch trials up.

Even Thomas Moore tried heretics and had them burned. Thomas Moore is a canonized Saint in the Catholic Church.

Either way, in those days there was a real belief in witchcraft and people had a real fear of it.

So, the reaction of the times was the result of ignorance.

We have evolved since.

Jim

 

[peter26]

Not sure it actually sent witch trials up.

Even Thomas Moore tried heretics and had them burned. Thomas Moore is a canonized Saint in the Catholic Church.

Either way, in those days there was a real belief in witchcraft and people had a real fear of it.

So, the reaction of the times was the result of ignorance.

We have evolved since.

Jim

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Exodus 22:18

And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:

Micah 5:12

There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

Deuteronomy 18:10

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

Witchcraft is in the Bible and is condemned in the Bible. This is not a superstition brought on by ignorance. It is well documented that some people dabble with witchcraft and dark magic - this is a leading cause of demonic possession. This is a serious threat and not something to be taken lightly or dismissed as superstition,

 

[Ridgerunner]

Not sure it actually sent witch trials up.

Even Thomas Moore tried heretics and had them burned. Thomas Moore is a canonized Saint in the Catholic Church.

Either way, in those days there was a real belief in witchcraft and people had a real fear of it.

So, the reaction of the times was the result of ignorance.

We have evolved since.

Jim

I don’t think the Church forbids a belief in witchcraft. Nor do I think it doesn’t exist or never did. Plenty of people worldwide believe in it and act on it. How does that saying go about Haiti? “Haiti is 80% Catholic, 20% protestant and 100% voodoo.” Something like that.

But the belief in literal witchcraft undoubtedly led to suspicion of more people in times past than it does today. The Inquisition itself was set up to give a fair hearing to people who would have been executed by the state or local authorities anyway, and cleared most of them.

But is the Pope actually talking about witchcraft? Seems to me he isn’t. Seems to me he’s talking about too-ready condemnation of those deemed aberrant in some way. I’m not at all sure who he’s talking about, on either side of the accusations.

In truth, I’m not sure what he’s saying, about whom to who whom.

 

[Crusaderbear]

Am I one of the only ones who realizes this isn’t even remotely about witches? In modern english (at least american) its a term meaning looking for crimes where none exist.

I believe our pope is using it in that style.

Too often these things are more about the accuser showing everyone how pure and devout they are (holier than thou…) and not that the percieved offender is really that sinful!

These things keep those most in need of face time with the Lord out of the pews. We need to reverse that.

 

[Darryl1958]

I don’t think the Church forbids a belief in witchcraft. Nor do I think it doesn’t exist or never did. Plenty of people worldwide believe in it and act on it. How does that saying go about Haiti? “Haiti is 80% Catholic, 20% protestant and 100% voodoo.” Something like that.

But the belief in literal witchcraft undoubtedly led to suspicion of more people in times past than it does today. The Inquisition itself was set up to give a fair hearing to people who would have been executed by the state or local authorities anyway, and cleared most of them.

But is the Pope actually talking about witchcraft? Seems to me he isn’t. Seems to me he’s talking about too-ready condemnation of those deemed aberrant in some way. I’m not at all sure who he’s talking about, on either side of the accusations.

In truth, I’m not sure what he’s saying, about whom to who whom.

Maybe most of the things he is saying is not for the benefit of the laity at all, but is addressed to the internal politics of the priestly classes?

Either way, I am confused to what the burning of Joan of Arc had to do with legalism. It was really nothing to do with the Church and everything to do with the political motivations of the English and their supporters during the Hundred Years War.

It makes it harder to understand what the point is when his examples do not really line up with common understandings of the history of witches and Joan of Arc. The ‘witch hunt’ in her case was purely political and a modern day version of the term ‘witch hunt’ in every sense.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Am I one of the only ones who realizes this isn’t even remotely about witches? In modern english (at least american) its a term meaning looking for crimes where none exist.

I believe our pope is using it in that style.

Too often these things are more about the accuser showing everyone how pure and devout they are (holier than thou…) and not that the percieved offender is really that sinful!

These things keep those most in need of face time with the Lord out of the pews. We need to reverse that.

I don’t argue with your interpretation. What I don’t understand is just what he is saying ought not to be and who, exactly is he talking about?

To be honest with you, I don’t hear a lot of people talking about how they’re holier than the next fellow. Maybe somewhere this is rife, but I just don’t think a lot of people do it. They might think it, but they don’t manifest it.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

To be honest with you, I don’t hear a lot of people talking about how they’re holier than the next fellow. Maybe somewhere this is rife, but I just don’t think a lot of people do it. They might think it, but they don’t manifest it.

Perhaps. What I DO read here, however, is that other people express that they are better Catholics than so-and-so and so-and-so. In my opinion it seems the same thing.

 

[Crusaderbear]

I don’t argue with your interpretation. What I don’t understand is just what he is saying ought not to be and who, exactly is he talking about?

To be honest with you, I don’t hear a lot of people talking about how they’re holier than the next fellow. Maybe somewhere this is rife, but I just don’t think a lot of people do it. They might think it, but they don’t manifest it.

You have to forgive me, I can see the LU branded on the mountain above Liberty University from my front yard (the eye of Jerry) and encounter a lot of Baptists, I hear statements all the time about ‘those catholics’ or that church. I do see it in some Catholics (you are right, not many) but I tend to read it into a lot of posts here (at first, I thought thats what all the catty quoters were about, then I realized that was an accepted way to quickly point out ‘da rules’

Remember where the Pope comes from - Argentina suffered greatly from people quick to turn in their neighbors for percieved crimes. Read about ‘the disappeared’ when you have a minute, he has a legitimate beef!

 

[pnewton]

With all due respect, talk like this makes me nervous…I wonder if we are straying too far from our traditions.

Pope Francis is not moving away from tradition as he is trying to teach us the proper ordering of tradition, or in this case, human laws.

Because the “letter” of the Law is TRUTH!

Let your yes be yes and your no be no…

Not one JOT…

The letter of the law is not truth. Human laws can be false. Divine laws can be given for a time. That is why we do not worship on Saturday. What Pope Francis has said here, and throughout his papacy is tame compared to the way Paul addressed the issue, especially in his rather emotional letter to the Galations, but also to the Romans.

I do not know what is more surprising, that cradle Catholics aren’t more abundantly defending the Holy Father or that my fellow reverts aren’t jumping in to put the Holy Father in his proper Scriptural context. Long before the Catechism spoke on primacy of conscience Paul preach spiritual freedom for Christians.

Galatians is worth reading on this.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Exodus 22:18

Micah 5:12

Deuteronomy 18:10

Galatians 5:19-21

Witchcraft is in the Bible and is condemned in the Bible. This is not a superstition brought on by ignorance. It is well documented that some people dabble with witchcraft and dark magic - this is a leading cause of demonic possession. This is a serious threat and not something to be taken lightly or dismissed as superstition,

So is stoning women caught in adultery specified in the Old Testament, but Jesus told us how to handle that situation without putting the letter of the law into effect.

Some how Christians missed Jesus teaching in the course of history.

Jim

 

[JosieN]

VATICAN CITY (CNS) — A heart that clings to the letter of the law is closed to the Holy Spirit and God’s truth, Pope Francis said at morning Mass.

“This is the role model of Jesus, who, in order to be faithful and having obeyed the word of the Father, ends up on the cross,” he said.
cnstopstories.com/2016/04/11/witch-hunts-rooted-in-putting-laws-above-gods-truth-pope-says/

Can anyone here explain what the Pope means in the last sentence? I thought Jesus ended up on the cross because the chief priests handed Him over to Pilate to be put to death. I have read this several times and I still don’t understand what the Pope means. Jesus was a role model and was obedient to His Father, but His accusers put Him on the cross. Are they the witch hunters?