‘Witch hunts’ rooted in putting laws above God’s truth, pope says

[Darryl1958]

Can anyone here explain what the Pope means in the last sentence? I thought Jesus ended up on the cross because the chief priests handed Him over to Pilate to be put to death. I have read this several times and I still don’t understand what the Pope means. Jesus was a role model and was obedient to His Father, but His accusers put Him on the cross. Are they the witch hunters?

I think that the train of thought is that his accusers are the witch hunters, and that Jesus is the albeit innocent witch being hunted by them.

Hardness of heart certainly describes their intent toward Jesus, and their indifference to whether or not he was guilty of anything. They did stay without the grounds of the law in order to put him to death though, by going to Pilate, who alone could dispense of the ultimate punishment to satisfy their political intrigue.

If only the lawman, Ceasar had followed the letter of the law!
He fully understood he was without grounds to impose the sentence. The letter of the law itself had a fairness to it, even if imperfect.It is the kangaroo court aspect of it all that stands out as the mockery of justice.

It is not as if people were putting the law above truth, but more that people put their political intrigues above both the law and the truth in order to carry out acts of heartless lawlessness that are carried out in the name of the Law and the name of God, but only for appearances sake. The people in question are not being sticklers for the law, or believers in their own righteousness. They only care about advancing their cause, and nothing else matters, not even whether or not the people they put to death are innocent according to the truth and according to the law.

 

[JosieN]

I think that the train of thought is that his accusers are the witch hunters, and that Jesus is the albeit innocent witch being hunted by them.

Hardness of heart certainly describes their intent toward Jesus, and their indifference to whether or not he was guilty of anything. They did stay without the grounds of the law in order to put him to death though, by going to Pilate, who alone could dispense of the ultimate punishment to satisfy their political intrigue.

If only the lawman, Ceasar had followed the letter of the law!
He fully understood he was without grounds to impose the sentence. The letter of the law itself had a fairness to it, even if imperfect.It is the kangaroo court aspect of it all that stands out as the mockery of justice.

It is not as if people were putting the law above truth, but more that people put their political intrigues above both the law and the truth in order to carry out acts of heartless lawlessness that are carried out in the name of the Law and the name of God, but only for appearances sake. The people in question are not being sticklers for the law, or believers in their own righteousness. They only care about advancing their cause, and nothing else matters, not even whether or not the people they put to death are innocent according to the truth and according to the law.

Thanks!

 

[mikekle]

Exodus 22:18

Micah 5:12

Deuteronomy 18:10

Galatians 5:19-21

Witchcraft is in the Bible and is condemned in the Bible. This is not a superstition brought on by ignorance. It is well documented that some people dabble with witchcraft and dark magic - this is a leading cause of demonic possession. This is a serious threat and not something to be taken lightly or dismissed as superstition,

The more I look around and think about it, the more I believe those folks living in past generations, where it was common to blame witchcraft and evil spirits for things people today believe are naturally occurring or have other explanations…I believe we may be totally wrong about this today and they had it right in the past.

God even tells us, it is not flesh and blood we wrestle with, its from powers in high places, its very suspect it is the modern scientific world that feeds us the ‘natural explanations’ for these things too and that we laugh about those folks in the past that used to blame witches and demons for everything…I think they may have been right all along and our modern day ‘experts’ are just feeding us lies to diminish belief in the supernatural.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Can anyone here explain what the Pope means in the last sentence? I thought Jesus ended up on the cross because the chief priests handed Him over to Pilate to be put to death. I have read this several times and I still don’t understand what the Pope means. Jesus was a role model and was obedient to His Father, but His accusers put Him on the cross. Are they the witch hunters?

Jesus was condemned by the Sanhedrin, because they were following the letter of the law.

Jesus was accused of blasphemy by making himself the Son of God, equal to God.

The didn’t have the spirit of the law so failed to see who Jesus really is.

Jim

 

[Darryl1958]

The more I look around and think about it, the more I believe those folks living in past generations, where it was common to blame witchcraft and evil spirits for things people today believe are naturally occurring or have other explanations…I believe we may be totally wrong about this today and they had it right in the past.

God even tells us, it is not flesh and blood we wrestle with, its from powers in high places, its very suspect it is the modern scientific world that feeds us the ‘natural explanations’ for these things too and that we laugh about those folks in the past that used to blame witches and demons for everything…I think they may have been right all along and our modern day ‘experts’ are just feeding us lies to diminish belief in the supernatural.

To an extent this is true, but it need not be. Properly defined, and properly adhered too, both science and Catholicism are opponents of baseless superstitions.
What is happening in much of the scientific community is the hubris of beleiving that scientific explanations which dispel superstitious thinking also dispel the existence of the reality of God altogether.

Rene Girard makes a good argument on this topic that Christianity is the beginning of science. The superstition of the ‘Scapegoat’ phenomena, and a community gathering around the murder of one victim as a catharsis for all sin, is what was challenged by the Crucifixion of God himself. With the death of God on the Cross, it became no longer tenable that the scapegoat was actually responsible for the sins and the disharmony that relentlessly and inevitably build up in any community of people, ruled by the competition of coveting, as we all are.

The temporary catharsis and reestablishment of harmony brought to a community through the crowd gathering together to slay a victim is a real enough phenomena The ‘us’ of a community is defined in terms of not being the ‘them’, the ‘other’, the scapegoat. But the rationale behind scapegoating phenomena, that the ‘they’ are responsible for the disharmony and disasters that befall a community, is no longer tenable and becomes subject to doubt when the ‘they’ becomes recognized to be God himself.

When the possibility of nailing an innocent man, God even, to a cross becomes the Christian reality, one needs to look deeper.
Hence, the advent of science.

 

[Darryl1958]

What is happening in Western society now is a continuation of the scapegoating phenomena, with the ‘they’ this time being defined as the Christian.

I’ll give an example from popular culture, from Modern Family. It is a funny show, light-hearted enough with no real axes to grind against anybody, but in one episode one member of a gay marriage, Mitch, has a deep suspicion against Christians because of an incident where Christians chased him into a lake.

Really?!! Make no doubt about it, the phenomena of gay-bashing is real enough, but when it comes to real physical violence, the sticks and clubs of the mob are doubtless generated from the crowds gathered in the bars and the street than they are from the crowds gathered around the wafer and the Bible.
There certainly are a lot of problems that beset gay people. that is beyond doubt. The explanations for all the problems inevitably fall upon Christians.
Why is the incidence of suicide so high among homosexuals, for example? The answer, because of Christian values being internalized, and people hating themselves on account of those values.

 

[anon67074017]

Claude Frollo was a fictional witch hunter from The Hunchback of Notre Dame. He put laws over God’s love and mercy. The Pope is condemning acts like that.

 

[JosieN]

What is happening in Western society now is a continuation of the scapegoating phenomena, with the ‘they’ this time being defined as the Christian.

I’ll give an example from popular culture, from Modern Family. It is a funny show, light-hearted enough with no real axes to grind against anybody, but in one episode one member of a gay marriage, Mitch, has a deep suspicion against Christians because of an incident where Christians chased him into a lake.

Really?!! Make no doubt about it, the phenomena of gay-bashing is real enough, but when it comes to real physical violence, the sticks and clubs of the mob are doubtless generated from the crowds gathered in the bars and the street than they are from the crowds gathered around the wafer and the Bible.
There certainly are a lot of problems that beset gay people. that is beyond doubt. The explanations for all the problems inevitably fall upon Christians.
Why is the incidence of suicide so high among homosexuals, for example? The answer, because of Christian values being internalized, and people hating themselves on account of those values.

It is a very sad situation. It is bad for both Christians and gay people. Who is spreading the message that Christian values cause them to hate themselves? Where is this coming from? My guess it is the media and like you mentioned shows like Modern Family, they are powerful influences on our culture.

 

[Darryl1958]

It is a very sad situation. It is bad for both Christians and gay people. Who is spreading the message that Christian values cause them to hate themselves? Where is this coming from? My guess it is the media and like you mentioned shows like Modern Family, they are powerful influences on our culture.

It is more typical for homosexuals to use Rene Girard’s ideas to see themselves as scapegoats, and that very much fits into his theories too. The associations between homosexuality and witchunts is driven home by the fact that the common slur against homosexuals is to describe them with the name of the fuel that was used to burn witches

The violent fanatical homophobic Christian has become a meme in popular culture.
It is not that the violence against homosexuals is not real enough; it is easier to scapegoat Christian values rather than to take a hard look at the difficulties that are inherent in the lifestyles of many homosexuals.
Once the meme of Christian values being a form of hatred is well established, turning to Christianity, the religion of hope and redemption and healing, is dismissed as a dead end.

 

[JosieN]

It is more typical for homosexuals to use Rene Girard’s ideas to see themselves as scapegoats, and that very much fits into his theories too. The associations between homosexuality and witchunts is driven home by the fact that the common slur against homosexuals is to describe them with the name of the fuel that was used to burn witches

The violent fanatical homophobic Christian has become a meme in popular culture.
It is not that the violence against homosexuals is not real enough; it is easier to scapegoat Christian values rather than to take a hard look at the difficulties that are inherent in the lifestyles of many homosexuals.
Once the meme of Christian values being a form of hatred is well established, turning to Christianity, the religion of hope and redemption and healing, is dismissed as a dead end.

Christians believe in sin, the Bible talks about sin, and we can talk about our sins but when Christians say homosexuality is a sin, they become bad people in many peoples eyes and are told they are judging them. What I do not understand is why the mention of sin is interpreted as hatred for them. No one hates them and we are not judging them, only God can do that, but If their sin is causing them pain and unhappiness, then Christianity, the religion of hope and redemption is needed for them to heal and give them hope. They can be healed by Jesus Christ by His forgiveness but I think they must realize it is a sin first.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Well, I’m not sure about that.

Which burning’s were part of Catholic Church history long before the Reformation.

So, what they took to Salem had its roots in the past.

Jim

The “witches” in the Salem Witch Trials were not burned. They were hanged.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The “witches” in the Salem Witch Trials were not burned. They were hanged.

Correct, but then, none of the people who were hung were witches.

They were accused of witchcraft and given the opportunity to save their lives by
signing a confession admitting to such.

However, being they were all Christians and could not lie, they chose to go to their deaths rather than sign a false confession.

Only one accused signed the confession and that was the slave girl Tituba, who was not a Christian.

That being said, the fear of witchcraft and sorcery was well rooted in Catholicism, before the Reformation. So, what took place at Salem, has ties back to the Catholic Church.

Jim

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Correct, but then, none of the people who were hung were witches.

Yes it is, in the sense that there is no such thing really as “witches.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes it is, in the sense that there is no such thing really as “witches.”

But in the case of the Salem Witch Trials, all were hung because they refused to confess to the crime of practicing witchcraft.

I have the belief from what I’ve read and seen visiting Salem, that there was some land grabbing scheme by those in power.

Under Commonwealth Law, even today, if you use land for 20 years and no one tells you to stop with a formal petition, the land becomes yours.

In Salem of that time, all you had to do is start farming the land of the owner who is now in the grave.

Jim

 

[josie_L]

Not sure it actually sent witch trials up.

Even Thomas Moore tried heretics and had them burned. Thomas Moore is a canonized Saint in the Catholic Church.

Either way, in those days there was a real belief in witchcraft and people had a real fear of it.

So, the reaction of the times was the result of ignorance.

We have evolved since.

Jim

Heretics does not equate witches, and vise versa. Moreover, heretics were seen as traitors to the state, i.e., they usually spouted rebellion against the state/status quo through religion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Heretics does not equate witches, and vise versa. Moreover, heretics were seen as traitors to the state, i.e., they usually spouted rebellion against the state/status quo through religion.

You missed the point.

But, that makes it much better, eh, they were heretics not witches ?

Jim

 

[josie_L]

You missed the point.

But, that makes it much better, eh, they were heretics not witches ?

Jim

I didn’t say it was better, but the reasons behind the execution of heretics were based on legitimate concerns (destabilizing the state, treason. . .etc) rather than superstition and/or greed, and/or misogyny and/or fear.

p.s. Witch hunts were rare prior to the Reformation, so fear alone cannot explain why so many were killed after the Reformation?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I didn’t say it was better, but the reasons behind the execution of heretics were based on legitimate concerns rather than superstition.

So, either way the people were executed.

Not what Jesus had in mind for His Church, I’m sure.

Jim

 

[josie_L]

So, either way the people were executed.

Not what Jesus had in mind for His Church, I’m sure.

Jim

it was not the Church which executed heretics but the State for reasons already stated.

p.s. Many states still have the death penalty for treason.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

it was not the Church which executed heretics but the State for reasons already stated.

p.s. Many states still have the death penalty for treason.

Yeah well the Sanhedrin didn’t execute Jesus either, they just handed Him over to the state to execute Him

Thomas Moore was in charge of torturing confessions from heretics and then handing them over to the King’s men for execution. He was still part of that process regardless

The same was the case in the Spanish Inquisition. the Ecclesiastical court tried the person, and then handed the convicted over to the state for execution.

The Church has evolve since then.

Jim