‘Witch hunts’ rooted in putting laws above God’s truth, pope says

[JosieN]

And yet, from the cross Jesus said, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Jim

I always thought Jesus was asking for forgiveness for the Roman Soldiers that crucified Him.

 

[JosieN]

Then they’ll violate their vow of obedience.

Jim

Are you saying if they are given bad advice they must be obedient? What if they know it is wrong?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Are you saying if they are given bad advice they must be obedient? What if they know it is wrong?

Depends on whether the advice is lawful or not.

A priest can’t make up his own mind and decide not to follow the teachings of the Church.

Jim

 

[graciew]

Are you saying if they are given bad advice they must be obedient? What if they know it is wrong?

They will probably pray to see if that " what if…" is of God.
In one way or another we deal with" fantasy". I think …

 

[Randolph]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

And yet, from the cross Jesus said, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Jim

The authority of interpreting the gospels is entrusted with the Church and the saints. I am insufficient to comprehend all the mysteries and revelations of God so I entrust my soul and my salvation in the hands of the Church, which Jesus Himself founded to proclaim His kingdom to the world and bring souls to Him. The world needs the Church. Its sacraments and doctrines are in themselves loving and merciful. Their sole purpose is to lead all souls to Christ.

I fail to understand the ongoing efforts by many in the church trying to diminish the mission and importance of the Church itself. Speaking for myself, the teachings of the Church often go against my desires, my understandings, and my impulses. But I accepted them as I know they are good for me. After going to each confession, I am overwhelmed by the healing grace and forgiveness that my faith in Christ and the Church only grow in strength. The power of God’s mercy is endless love.

As a whole, Scriptures and Tratition have always taught repentance is a necessary condition of forgiveness. That’s what Jesus, the gospels, Tradition and the church have taught. That’s why Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Reconciliation. There are countless of quotes in the gospels to support the necessart role of repentance. But let’s not get into the quoting game as fundamentalists prefer to do. Jesus is Lord and God. His love and mercy is boundless. He can do as He wishes because this world and His kingdom in heaven belong to Him. While on earth, Christ extended his mercy on many souls–good and bad. No one can fully comprehend why Christ did it. But let’s not over reach ourselves in individually interpreting what Christ’s intentions were. Christ does not contractict Himself.

Let’s not fool ourselves. God’s laws, love and mercy are inseparable. God’s laws are merciful and loving because they guide us back in the right path when we sin or miss the target. When we sin, we not only damage ourselves, but also break a little piece of God’s heart. That’s why the Sacrament of reconciliation is so important and beautiful. It brings us back to Christ. I can only imaging satan is very jealous of this bond, and would do anything to break it. The Church–the gospels and Tradition–has always insisted repentance as a necessary condition for forgiveness because it is good for us.

 

[ringil]

I think opinions do matter and that is why I asked for yours. Here is the problem, priests will not take their marching orders from bishops or the pope if they feel this guide goes against the teaching of Jesus Christ. This life is only temporary, the next one is for eternity. They must ask themselves which one will take them to heaven, the bishops orders or the one from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

Priests take vows of obedience to their Bishops.

By obeying their Bishops they are obeying God’s will for them.

Priests can’t just decide that what a Bishop is telling him is false. He doesn’t have the authority to do that.

 

[JosieN]

Priests take vows of obedience to their Bishops.

By obeying their Bishops they are obeying God’s will for them.

Priests can’t just decide that what a Bishop is telling him is false. He doesn’t have the authority to do that.

Thanks for that information. I feel badly for them if the bishops orders go against their conscience. At least they can be assured they have done their job even if it may have been something they felt was not right. Priests have a very difficult job.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thanks for that information. I feel badly for them if the bishops orders go against their conscience. At least they can be assured they have done their job even if it may have been something they felt was not right. Priests have a very difficult job.

Keep in mind that a priest has an appeal process he can follow if the Bishop is asking him to do something that he feels contradicts Church doctrine.

However, he just can’t disobey his Bishop because he doesn’t agree with him.

Jim

 

[JosieN]

Keep in mind that a priest has an appeal process he can follow if the Bishop is asking him to do something that he feels contradicts Church doctrine.

However, he just can’t disobey his Bishop because he doesn’t agree with him.

Jim

Thanks for that information also.

 

[JosieN]

Keep in mind that a priest has an appeal process he can follow if the Bishop is asking him to do something that he feels contradicts Church doctrine.

However, he just can’t disobey his Bishop because he doesn’t agree with him.

Jim

Where do the Bishops get their orders from? Does every Bishop give similar orders to all the priests in their country or can the orders differ in each parish depending on the Bishop they have? I guess this is why there is a Church Doctrine, I think it is needed so all follow the same rules.

 

[Brendan]

Priests take vows of obedience to their Bishops.

By obeying their Bishops they are obeying God’s will for them.

Priests can’t just decide that what a Bishop is telling him is false. He doesn’t have the authority to do that.

Sort of, a priest who followed Nestorius, for example, would have imperiled his own soul. A more recent example would be Emmanuel Milingo, former Archbishop of Lusaka.

Obedience is a Virtue by which one conforms their will to the one with authority. No person has authority to bind someone to action against God, ergo, if a bishop departed from the teachings of the Church, like the examples above, a priest is not under obedience to follow.

Those examples are very, very, VERY rare though.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Where do the Bishops get their orders from? Does every Bishop give similar orders to all the priests in their country or can the orders differ in each parish depending on the Bishop they have? I guess this is why there is a Church Doctrine, I think it is needed so all follow the same rules.

I’m not a canon lawyer so don’t run to the bank with what I’m saying. However, my understanding is that its generally, its top down, with a dotted line from the Pope to Conference of Bishops and a solid line to the individual Bishop.

Bishops can vary on non-dogmatic issues and as we have seen with the issue of Holy Communion for pro-choice politicians, some allow it, others oppose it. But they can only speak for their own dioceses.

That being said, no Bishop could not order a priest to reveal what he heard in the confessional from a pro-choice politician.

Jim

 

[JosieN]

I’m not a canon lawyer so don’t run to the bank with what I’m saying. However, my understanding is that its generally, its top down, with a dotted line from the Pope to Conference of Bishops and a solid line to the individual Bishop.

Bishops can vary on non-dogmatic issues and as we have seen with the issue of Holy Communion for pro-choice politicians, some allow it, others oppose it. But they can only speak for their own dioceses.

That being said, no Bishop could not order a priest to reveal what he heard in the confessional from a pro-choice politician.

Jim

I guess this system has been working well for the Church though at times there are most likely going to be some problems with it. I guess that is why they have Canon lawyers to sort it all out. Thanks.

 

[josie_L]

And yet, from the cross Jesus said, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Jim

They can only be forgiven if they repent, and since Jesus is God (omniscient), his statement regarding their condemnation (Hell) means what it means.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

They can only be forgiven if they repent, and since Jesus is God (omniscient), his statement regarding their condemnation (Hell) means what it means.

Really, Jesus said, Father forgive them, only if they repent ?

Jim

 

[josie_L]

Really, Jesus said, Father forgive them, only if they repent ?

Jim

Are you denying that Jesus is omniscient, no, I don’t think you are, so you must realize that if Jesus said:

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

We can be assured that God did not forgive them (Hell is not a place where penitent sinners go), as such Jesus’s statement, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” did not apply to them.

And you can roll your eyes all the way back to your head if you like, but you would still be wrong.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Are you denying that Jesus is omniscient, no, I don’t think you are, so you must realize that if Jesus said:

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

We can be assured that God did not forgive them (Hell is not a place where penitent sinners go), as such Jesus’s statement, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” did not apply to them.

And you can roll your eyes all the way back to your head if you like, but you would still be wrong.

We can’t be assured God did not forgive them, this would be saying we know the mind of God, which we do not. Even the Church will not say who ends up in hell or not.

In all, whomever is saved, it is through Jesus Christ, even those he called snakes and brood of vipers.

When Jesus said, “Father forgive them, for the know not what they do,” he wasn’t speaking about those who had just tortured him and those at the foot of the cross mocking him, but for humanity.

Jim

 

[Randolph]

Really, Jesus said, Father forgive them, only if they repent ?

Jim

Your point is just getting beyond points of absurdity. This is just basic catechism of the Catholic Church. You took a short prayer from Christ to His Father while He was dying on the Cross, and attempted to marginalize the Sacrament of Reconciliation, which Christ Himself instituted during his ministry. The Church, in obedience to Christ, has always taught repentance was needed for forgiveness. This is not a view of hardened legalists who are only interested in applying God’s laws with no regard to love and mercy. It is a sacrament of the Church.

While dying on the cross, it probably was not feasible for Christ to explain all the necessary elements in this sacrament. But elsewhere, Christ, John-the Bapstist, and others spoke forcefully about repentance (“sin no more”), mercy, love, forgiveness, hell, etc, throughout the gospels and the Tradition of the Church.

I hope you are not pushing the position that the Church has been wrong, or been overreaching, on the its insistence on repentance in the past 2,000 years. Just because Jesus did not include your words “only if they repent” in His last short prayer to His Father does not mean Jesus eliminated repentance from the sacrament.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Today’s Liturgy of the Hours, the 2nd Office of the Reading is something appropriate here;

From a sermon by Saint Maximus of Turin, bishop

Christ is risen! He has burst open the gates of hell and let the dead go free; he has renewed the earth through the members of his Church now born again in baptism, and has made it blossom afresh with men brought back to life. His Holy Spirit has unlocked the doors of heaven, which stand wide open to receive those who rise up from the earth. Because of Christ’s resurrection the thief ascends to paradise, the bodies of the blessed enter the holy city, and the dead are restored to the company of the living. There is an upward movement in the whole of creation, each element raising itself to something higher. We see hell restoring its victims to the upper regions, earth sending its buried dead to heaven, and heaven presenting the new arrivals to the Lord. In one and the same movement, our Savior’s passion raises men from the depths, lifts them up from the earth, and sets them in the heights.

Christ is risen. His rising brings life to the dead, forgiveness to sinners, and glory to the saints. And so David the prophet summons all creation to join in celebrating the Easter festival: Rejoice and be glad, he cries, on this day which the Lord has made.

The light of Christ is an endless day that knows no night. Christ is this day, says the Apostle; such is the meaning of his words: Night is almost over; day is at hand. He tells us that night is almost over, not that it is about to fall. By this we are meant to understand that the coming of Christ’s light puts Satan’s darkness to flight, leaving no place for any shadow of sin. His everlasting radiance dispels the dark clouds of the past and checks the hidden growth of vice. The Son is that day to whom the day, which is the Father, communicates the mystery of his divinity. He is the day who says through the mouth of Solomon: I have caused an unfailing light to rise in heaven. And as in heaven no night can follow day, so no sin can overshadow the justice of Christ. The celestial day is perpetually bright and shining with brilliant light; clouds can never darken its skies. In the same way, the light of Christ is eternally glowing with luminous radiance and can never be extinguished by the darkness of sin.

This is why John the evangelist says: The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has never been able to overpower it.

And so, my brothers, each of us ought surely to rejoice on this holy day. Let no one, conscious of his sinfulness, withdraw from our common celebration, nor let anyone be kept away from our public prayer by the burden of his guilt. Sinner he may indeed be, but he must not despair of pardon on this day which is so highly privileged; for if a thief could receive the grace of paradise, how could a Christian be refused forgiveness?

divineoffice.org/easter-w05-sun-or/?date=20160424

Jim

 

[Randolph]

Today’s Liturgy of the Hours, the 2nd Office of the Reading is something appropriate here;

Jim

Did the saint say how could an “unrepentant” Christian be refused forgiveness? Did the good thief not reconcile with Jesus before he died? I think I have made my point, and I don’t want to go back and forth on it. You now do have the same privilege to make yours if you wish.

I am including an Act of Contrition, spoken everyday in the confessionals as sins are forgiven, that speaks beautifully about repentance.

“O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and the pains of hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen.”