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Bill_Dodds
Guest
So what’s your take on the pope’s apostolic exhortation . . . and the reaction from the general public and mainstream media?
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DaveBj
Guest
Interesting that he used amor instead of the usual caritas (amoris and caritatis in the genitive construction of the title) as the word for “love”.
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Origen52
Guest
As everything coming from Rome, everything is changed and nothing is changed. I’m starting to think that the Orthodox Church got this right and the Catholic Church is trying to institute a similar process without admitting it was wrong.
I’d like someone to explain how this document is not a break with catholic teaching up to now.
I’d like someone to explain how this document is not a break with catholic teaching up to now.
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GEddie
Guest
I haven’t seen the document yet (if it is available) but will ask a priest for his take before forming an opinion.
ICXC NIKA
ICXC NIKA
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angelic06
Guest
Here is a reputable “guidebook”, if you will, to the apostolic exhortation:As everything coming from Rome, everything is changed and nothing is changed. I’m starting to think that the Orthodox Church got this right and the Catholic Church is trying to institute a similar process without admitting it was wrong.
I’d like someone to explain how this document is not a break with catholic teaching up to now.
catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-franciss-new-document-on-marriage-12-things-to-know-and-share
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Origen52
Guest
Thanks for the link. Jimmy is a good apologist, but he’s also truthful, so he had to point out that parts of this document are ambiguous. These words can be twisted and turned to suit the beliefs of the reader.
I guess I should be grateful to Pope Francis; he is truthfully reflecting the problems the church is having reconciling Catholic teaching with today’s modern beliefs. This effort to please both traditionalists and non-traditionalists, will end up pleasing no one.
As for me, this is the shove I needed to explore the orthodox church. I have felt a pull in that direction for quite a while. They may have their problems also, but when I see the Catholic church trying to implement something the Orthodox church has always had, I am starting to see that they have the better understanding of the gospels.
The next issue will be a married clergy, I think I’d rather be in the bosom of the Orthodox Church when that discussion explodes.
As to those who will say that the truth resides in the Catholic Church, if that were true why can’t the Pope write a clear teaching.
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phil19034
Guest
@ Joe DeCarlo
From what I understand, a pastoral document is mostly geared towards the priests & bishops.
Granted it was the 1980s, but I can think of several instances where divorced people were treated without pastoral care and left the Church.
My two aunts are good examples:
My guess, is this is the type of behavior the Holy Father is addressing.
The key is for us to continue to look at everything this document teaches via the Tradition of the Church, and pray that our Bishops and priests (esp our Bishops) do the same.
We must also continue to teach our children WHY remarriage without annulment is adultery and teach them well enough that they marry the right person to begin with. The goal of this pastoral document from His Holiness is we must work to evangelize and catechize our youth so they are avoiding sexual sin and divorce in the first place.
God Bless.
From what I understand, a pastoral document is mostly geared towards the priests & bishops.
Granted it was the 1980s, but I can think of several instances where divorced people were treated without pastoral care and left the Church.
My two aunts are good examples:
- My one aunt was physically abused by her husband and left him. The women in the parish office treated my aunt like she was a tramp for getting a divorce. The priest was ok, but he didn’t really explain stuff to her; the women drove my aunt away because she felt unwelcome at our parish.
- My other aunt was living in Denver and was visiting us for Thanksgiving, by herself. I remember her talking about how great her life was, etc. When she went home, she arrived at the house with the locks on the doors changed, the bank account emptied, and her husband’s mistress had moved in with him! My aunt, obviously never wanted to see him again and was destroyed. When it came to getting an annulment, the priest wasn’t very kind to her feelings and was very legalist. The priest (not sure if this was the pastor or the tribunal) was going to make her contact her husband so they could meet face to face. My aunt was in a state of trauma and was unwilling to talk to or see her husband. The pastor or tribunal was then unwilling to move the annulment process any further.
My guess, is this is the type of behavior the Holy Father is addressing.
The key is for us to continue to look at everything this document teaches via the Tradition of the Church, and pray that our Bishops and priests (esp our Bishops) do the same.
We must also continue to teach our children WHY remarriage without annulment is adultery and teach them well enough that they marry the right person to begin with. The goal of this pastoral document from His Holiness is we must work to evangelize and catechize our youth so they are avoiding sexual sin and divorce in the first place.
God Bless.
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christofirst
Guest
My mom, 90, commented on the local news coverage of the exhortation, which amounted to, “follow your conscience,” telling me, “It sure wasn’t like this in my day!” I tried to explain about a well-formed conscience, and working toward gettiing an irregular union validated, and she replied, “That’s not what they said on the news!”
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phil19034
Guest
Yes, there are some Bishops who are trying to move the Catholic Church to be more like the Orthodox in decentralization. However, that decentralization is in some ways the main root of the Orthodox Church’s problems. Furthermore, the Orthodox allow something like 3 divorces…? I’m not sure how that came about, but it did in the 20th century. It isn’t something that they have had forever.
The Catholic Church already allows married men to become priests. For the most part, it always has. Remember, it is a disciple, not doctrine or dogma.
Many of Eastern Catholic Churches, which are in full communion with the Pope allow it. Only the Latin Church (Roman Rite) pursued a celibate priesthood and it took approx 1000 years to do so. The Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches however, do require all monks to be celibate and require all Bishops to be celibate.
Today, the it would be very difficult for the Roman Rite to allow married men to become priests from just purely logistical point of view (let alone the disciplinary reason the Latin Church did it to begin with)
It’s also worth noting that the main issue the Eastern Churches (aka the Orthodox) had with priestly celibacy wasn’t the discipline itself. They didn’t like the Patriarch of Rome pushing something on his Latin Bishops. They feared that he would force it upon them.
It was always a power struggle between Rome and Constantinople , with Constantinople always trying to gain more power solely because of secular reasons (i.e Because the Eastern Roman Emperor was there, and then after the fall of the Emperor in Rome, Constantinople felt it should have more power because the only “true” Emperor left was in Constantinople).
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phil19034
Guest
The Pope isn’t protected from being confusing or driving people crazy. Even if 95% of the Bishops read this and lead the Church into heresy… That’s not how Papal infallibility works. Papal and Church infallibility is a NEGATIVE protection. It protects us from being BOUNDED to believe in Heresy. Infallibility doesn’t even protect us from a heretical Pope. If a Pope is a heretic and tells people to commit heresy behind closed doors, that doesn’t break infallibility.
Infallibility is only broken when heresy is presented as dogma or doctrine. Or if a heretical discipline is put into practice that binds us all.
In this pastoral document, I believe the Pope is saying that we need to explain and teach (with love) what the Church teaches and educate the couple why we believe a divorced & remarried, without annulment should refrain from communion. We must make sure they understand and they must understand the consequences of what happens if they receive unworthily. But ultimately, it is up to the person. They are the ones who have to answer to God. If we teach them well, and with love… if the receive and are guilty of sacrilege, then they will answer to God.
But if they are not as culpable, then God will have Mercy.
The other thing we have consider is this:
Church discipline is designed to help us move closer to God. 50+ years ago, if a couple was told they couldn’t receive communion because they were in a continuous state of sin, they would respect what the priest said and slowly work to come close to God. They would still come to Mass, they wouldn’t receive, and over time, many of them would live as Brother & Sister or perhaps eventually get an annulment, etc.
However, after the 1960s & 1970s; people started to adopt a rebellious attitude. Being told they could not receive communion didn’t work to bring them closer to the Church, it cased them to pull a “King Henry VIII” and leave the Church.
So today, we have MANY people who honestly do not understand the beauty of the Church’s teaching and do not see the mercy in annulments and the mercy in refraining from communion.
Therefore, the question today really becomes, which is worse for your soul? Receiving unworthily, but not realizing you are sinning; or leaving the Church?
Typically, when someone receives Communion who objectively should not, they don’t believe they are sinning. Because they don’t believe it, their capability might be diminished.
To conclude, I think this document is saying that priests need to have ongoing dialog with their parishioners who are in new unions without annulments. If the parishioner is properly refraining with communion, the priest should continue to work with them to either receive an annulment or slowly work them into living as brother and sister; all the while they continue to make sure they are ok mentally and continue to move towards God.
If the parishioner decides to receive Communion, the priest needs to continue to dialog with them to help them understand Church teaching, seek annulment (if possible) and continue to show the Church’s Mercy in refraining from the Sacrament in their situation. Again, making sure they are mentally OK and continue moving towards God.
In closing, I believe today, we still have a number of priests (even in the United States) who will either tell Catholics in irregular unions that they must refrain from Communion and then they never speak to them about it again; or they know people are receiving and they never discuss it when them. I strongly believe that this document is meant for Priests to have a continuous dialog with Catholics in irregular unions.
God Bless and May God have Mercy on us and on the whole world. Amen.
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phil19034
Guest
yeah, the secular news is really twisting this like they did during Vatican II
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pnewton
Guest
Where does it break?As everything coming from Rome, everything is changed and nothing is changed. I’m starting to think that the Orthodox Church got this right and the Catholic Church is trying to institute a similar process without admitting it was wrong.
I’d like someone to explain how this document is not a break with catholic teaching up to now.
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pnewton
Guest
There is a lot of clear teaching in the letter. If you need, I will pull up some quotes.
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minion
Guest
I don’t think I should say much, since I haven’t read the whole thing (it IS 264 pages), but the parts I’ve read seem okay to me, and insightful.
The secular media always pushes it’s agenda of course, and they know not many of their viewers are going to read a 264 page document.
That said, I am confused by this statement, however.
versus:
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
Do you not think that the previous two popes were extremely clear in their teachings? And many, many popes before them? They did not require constant clarification. Perhaps the problem is not the church teaching. You draw the conclusion here.
It is a wonderful thing to realise that all popes come and go. They are not in charge, but God is.
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pnewton
Guest
Yes, but each Pope leaves a legacy. For St. John Paul, it was the Theology of the Body. I suspect that Amoris Laetitia might be the legacy of this messenger of the mercy of God.
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christofirst
Guest
Just a follow-up, my mom also reads the L.A. Times every day, and they devoted a full page article to the exhortation which was apparently without too much bias. I haven’t read it yet, but my mom now reports to me, “The Pope hasn’t really changed anything. Yes, you must follow your conscience, but your conscience must conform to the teachings of the Church.”
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hwriggles4
Guest
Fellow Posters:
I’ve followed reports on this, and the secular reports are all over the map. Jimmy Akin did a good job on his commentary, and Fr. John Zuhlsdorf has a good one from the Confraternity that can be found here:
wdtprs.com/blog/2016/04/more-musings-on-amorislaetitiae-and-a-statement-from-great-confccb-priests/
Here are three of my own opinions after reading reports:
I’ve followed reports on this, and the secular reports are all over the map. Jimmy Akin did a good job on his commentary, and Fr. John Zuhlsdorf has a good one from the Confraternity that can be found here:
wdtprs.com/blog/2016/04/more-musings-on-amorislaetitiae-and-a-statement-from-great-confccb-priests/
Here are three of my own opinions after reading reports:
- When Pope Francis I refers discussions of “irregular marriages” be discussed with a priest (I have a good friend who recently had a convalidation after his wife was granted an annulment that took a few years), I’m afraid that lapsed Catholics will go “church shopping” to find a priest who will tell them what they want to hear. I heard this happened quite a bit in the 1960’s and 1970’s when it came to the question of using birth control pills and barrier methods of contraception - there were quite a few priests who told parishioners it was OK. Some even got sterilized (both men and women) after having three, four, or five children, where some priests from that generation replied, “you’ve done your duty.”
- The mainstream media, even Fox News, was commenting about the Catholic Church being welcoming. The mainstream media must think that Catholics carry a card when they come to Mass that the ushers check their registration and the fact that they are Catholic. The mainstream media never mentions that all are welcome at Mass.
- As far as being welcoming to dissenting Catholics and Christmas and Easter Catholics (okay, I was a “one hour Catholic” for many years), many need proper instruction (and sometimes re-education) in their faith. This is why it’s important to go to a parish where homilies are strong, and the congregation is fed properly, even if it means driving 30 minutes. It is also important for Catholics to share their faith in a charitable way. I like to be welcoming, but I have a hard time explaining to lifelong Catholics the importance of confession, that the Eucharist is not a symbol, and where the Church stands on the life issues.
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anon67074017
Guest
I approve of it. Pope Francis is showing that the Church has a lot of mercy. God bless him.
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