“Know them by their fruit”

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“Know them by their fruit”

Who are the Protestant, non- Catholic, Christian Denominations who do not reject the following?

  1. *]Abortion
    *]Euthanasia
    *]Embryonic Stem Cell Research
    *]Human Cloning
    *]Homosexual “Marriage”
    What are their names?

    This thread is for all those “Christians” and Denominations who hold to the errant doctrine, which allows, “Personal Interpretation of the Bible”, which has lead to bad interpretation and bad doctrine by some non-Catholic Christian denominations.

    “Know them by their fruit”

    Isaiah 17:6
    6 4 Only a scattering of grapes shall be left! As when an olive tree has been beaten, Two or three olives remain at the very top, four or five on its fruitful branches, says the LORD, the God of Israel.

    Matthew 7:16-18
    16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
    17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.

    Luke 6:43-46
    43 "A good tree does not bear rotten fruit, nor does a rotten tree bear good fruit.
    44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not pick figs from thornbushes, nor do they gather grapes from brambles.
    45 A good person out of the store of goodness in his heart produces good, but an evil person out of a store of evil produces evil; for from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks.
    46 "Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?
    One of the reasons that I have asked this question, is because, when California passed Proposition 8, banning “Gay Marriage” all sorts of non-Catholic, Protestant “ministers”, came out (on TV) and apposed the “Gay Marriage Ban”.

    This is just one example of doctrine that conflicts with Christianity, doctrine, based on a flawed interpretation of the Bible.

    Should the rest of the Christian community speak out against these denominations?

    Voter’s Guide for Serious Catholics

    Your thoughts?

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    Go Team Catholic!
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I don’t want to mock churches or tear them apart on a thread, but here goes.
The Church of Christ as far as I’m aware are 100% pro choice, and do work for NARAL.
We all know about the US episcopal church.
I’m sure there are more.

But don’t let these be ‘proofs’ that protestantism is wrong.

Edit: ‘United Church of Christ’ - But because of the congregationalist polity, the official denomination view can be very different to that of individual congregations.
 
Love the sinner, hate the sin.

A work of mercy and charity is ‘instrunct the ignorant’.
 
Yes, let’s out them and rip them apart! We’ll tear them limb from limb!

Kidding.

We all know who they are.

We also know who they aren’t.

And we have also seen the churches which do not support these things loudly denounce the ones which do.
 
Eucharisted said:
Love the sinner, hate the sin.

A work of mercy and charity is ‘instrunct the ignorant’.
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Hello Eucharisted,

many of my comments here are of a general nature.

Love the sinner, hate the sin

Where does it say that in the Bible?

I have heard the Popular Evangelical phrase,* “Hate the sin, but love the sinner.”* I know that we a required to love one another but that doesn’t mean that we are required to ignore another’s sin.

"Hate the sin, but love the sinner."

Where is this phrase found in scriptue? I’ve never come acroos this phrase in the Bible but I have come across these -

2 Tim 1:13

Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

2 Tim 4:3

For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers

Titus 1:9

…holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.

1 Tim 6:20

… guard what has been entrusted to you.

2 Tim 1:14

Guard this rich trust with the help of the holy Spirit that dwells within us.

1 Tim 4:6

If you will give these instructions to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound teaching you have followed.

Heb 3:1

Therefore … reflect on Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,

Heb 4:14

… let us hold fast to our confession.

Heb 10:23

Let us hold unwaveringly to our confession that gives us hope, for he who made the promise is
trustworthy.

Phil 2:15–16

…that you may be blameless and innocent … as you hold on to the word of life

Acts 5:20

Go … and tell the people everything about this life.

1 Jn 2:24

Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginningremains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.

2 Thess 2:15

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Rom 6:17

But thanks be to God that, although you were once slaves of sin, you have become obedient from the heart to the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted.

1 Cor 11:23

For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you

Continued on next post -
 
1 Cor 15:3

For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received …

Gal 2:2

I went up in accord with a revelation, and I presented to them the gospel that I preachto the Gentiles …

Rom 2:16

on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ.

Rom 16:25

Now to him who can strengthen you, according to my gospel and the proclamationof Jesus
Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret for long ages

1 Cor 15:1

Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received
and in which you also stand.

Rom 16:25

Now to him who can strengthen you, according to my gospel and the proclamation of JesusChrist, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret for long ages

1 Cor 1:21

For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the
will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith.

Col 2:7

rooted in him and built upon him and established in the faith as you were taught …

Gal 1:23

They (the people of Syria and Cilicia) only kept hearing that“the one who once was persecuting
us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”

Eph 4:5

There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

1 Thess 1:6

And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, receiving the wordin great affliction, with joy
from the holy Spirit,

And, I am aware of this, biblically supported, Catholic belief -

Nine ways of being an accessory to another’s sin.

**1.**By Counsel
**2.**By Command
**3.**By Consent
**4.**By Concealment
**5.**By Defense of Evil Done
**6.**By Partaking
**7.**By Provocation
**8.**By Praise
**9.**By Silence
http://www.salvemariaregina.info/Images/SacredHeart.jpg
 
Thomas à Kempis (c. 1380-1471), wrote a book titled - Imitation of Christ (also here and here ), which explains how we can “imitate” Christ.

I think Thomas Kempis’ book goes a long way in explaining what it means to “believe in Jesus”. I highly recommended it. (generally speaking)

Many Catholic Saints, including St. Bonaventure, St. Ignatius, St. Benedict, St. Francis de Sales, St. Francis of Assisi, St. John of the Cross , St. Teresa of Avila, St. Thomas Aquinas and many more (here), also wrote about what it means to “believe in Jesus”.

Many Catholic Saints and Doctors of the Church (here) spent a lifetime reflecting, writing about and living; what it means to “believe in Jesus”.

Additionally, there are many places in the Bible where the words “love” and “faith” have the same meaning as “believe”, in the sense of “believing in Jesus”. We must also obey Christ.

Thank you for your post.
 
A tough question because of its wording. I said NO because to brand the churches themselves would be self defeating. To speak out against the issues themselves, I feel, would be more productive.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Hello Eucharisted,

many of my comments here are of a general nature.

Love the sinner, hate the sin

Where does it say that in the Bible?

I have heard the Popular Evangelical phrase,* “Hate the sin, but love the sinner.”* I know that we a required to love one another but that doesn’t mean that we are required to ignore another’s sin.

"Hate the sin, but love the sinner."

Where is this phrase found in scriptue? I’ve never come acroos this phrase in the Bible but I have come across these -

2 Tim 1:13

Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

2 Tim 4:3

For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers

Titus 1:9

…holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.

1 Tim 6:20

… guard what has been entrusted to you.

2 Tim 1:14

Guard this rich trust with the help of the holy Spirit that dwells within us.

1 Tim 4:6

If you will give these instructions to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound teaching you have followed.

Heb 3:1

Therefore … reflect on Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,

Heb 4:14

… let us hold fast to our confession.

Heb 10:23

Let us hold unwaveringly to our confession that gives us hope, for he who made the promise is
trustworthy.

Phil 2:15–16

…that you may be blameless and innocent … as you hold on to the word of life

Acts 5:20

Go … and tell the people everything about this life.

1 Jn 2:24

Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginningremains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.

2 Thess 2:15

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Rom 6:17

But thanks be to God that, although you were once slaves of sin, you have become obedient from the heart to the pattern of teaching to which you were entrusted.

1 Cor 11:23

For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you

Continued on next post -
Click to expand...
The Canon of the Bible comes from Sacred Tradition, so the Word and Tradition are one. In fact, the order of the Mass is not found in the Bible, but it is found in Sacred Tradition. What I mean by that is, what is implied in the Bible is clarified in Sacred Tradition and what is implied in Sacred Tradition is clarified in the Bible: the Word and the Tradition compliment each other and are one, similar to how God created man for woman and woman for man.

Now, as to the phrase “love the sinner, hate the sin,” it is implied by Jesus who commanded us to love our enemies and to love one another. So we must love sinners. But where is the phrase “hate the sin”? It is actually found in the Book of Wisdom - either a Psalm or a Proverb, I forget which. But I trust God, who is the truth, will lead you into all truths.
 
ricko said:
A tough question because of its wording. I said NO because to brand the churches themselves would be self defeating. To speak out against the issues themselves, I feel, would be more productive.
Click to expand...

The question is phrased in such a way that the CC cannot avoid looking good, & preening itself on its virtuousness :eek: This is manifestly self-serving, & people who behave in this way tend to be rather short of friends. A far fairer test would be to include sins which have been committed, or hushed up, or defended, by Catholics, whether others have done so, or not.​

Besides, there is much more to other Churches than their sins. The thread is slanted.
 
Eucharisted said:
Love the sinner, hate the sin.

A work of mercy and charity is ‘instrunct the ignorant’.
Click to expand...
I posted this on a different thread, but it is relevant here.

When asking WWJD, remember that it could be turning over tables and pointing out the thieves in the temple.
 
I think that another good question is how many members of these denominations do not know where their church stands. How many disagree on these topics but do not know that they support them by their actions on Sundays.
 
Eucharisted said:
The Canon of the Bible comes from Sacred Tradition, so the Word and Tradition are one. In fact, the order of the Mass is not found in the Bible, but it is found in Sacred Tradition. What I mean by that is, what is implied in the Bible is clarified in Sacred Tradition and what is implied in Sacred Tradition is clarified in the Bible: the Word and the Tradition compliment each other and are one, similar to how God created man for woman and woman for man.

Now, as to the phrase “love the sinner, hate the sin,” it is implied by Jesus who commanded us to love our enemies and to love one another. So we must love sinners. But where is the phrase “hate the sin”? It is actually found in the Book of Wisdom - either a Psalm or a Proverb, I forget which. But I trust God, who is the truth, will lead you into all truths.
Click to expand...
Hello Eucharisted, excellent Post! You are correct -

Here are some verses that disprove the errant, Protestant belief of Sola Scriptura, or “Bible Alone” -

Jn 21:25 … not everything is in the Bible.
2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 Cor 11:2; 1 Thess 2:13 … Paul speaks of oral tradition.
Acts 2:42 … early Christians followed apostolic tradition.
2 Pet 3:16 … Bible hard to understand, get distorted.
2 Jn 1:12; 3 Jn 1:13-14 … more oral tradition.
2 Pet 1:20-21 … against personal interpretation.
Acts 8:31; Heb 5:12 … guidance needed to interpret scriptures.

I read somewhere that the phrase “hate the sin and not the sinner” was actually attributed to Mohandas Gandhi, in 1929. I also read that one of Saint Augustine’s letters contains the phrase - Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum, which allegedly “translates roughly” as “With love for mankind and hatred of sins.” I could not find a credible source to post here.

The phrase, “with love of mankind”, assuming Saint Augustine actually wrote this and assuming that the translation is correct, still does not translate to “love the sinner, hate the sin”.

The word “mankind” and the term “a man” have two different meanings*. *

Love for Mankind is not the same as “Love for a particular man”.

We must love one another, I know that, even our enemies but how does one separate the sin from the man?

We cannot separate the sin from the man, only God can. If a man commits a murder; he becomes …or is…in fact, a “Murderer”…If a man commits a rape; he becomes …or is…in fact, a “Rapist” and so on and so forth. Un-forgiven murderers and rapists go to hell, don’t they? I think the key here is forgiveness.

The separation of sin usually involves participation of the Man, who having free will, asks for forgiveness and God Almighty, who grants forgiveness.

Until, a sinner confesses his sins and he is granted forgiveness from God, he is still a sinner and separated from God. Sin separates man from God.

There are many places in the Bible, where we are warned to avoid sin, sinners and the occasion of sin.

The phrase, “hate the sin and not the sinner”, seems to me to be an over-played phrase, which has been exploited and misused by many today who wish to continue sinning or used by those who, for what ever reason, wish to associate with sinners or try to justify or down-play another’s sins. I don’t believe that this phase, as worded here, exists anywhere in the Bible. If it is there, then please show me where it is.

You are correct though, this concept, properly understood, is… in a way… implied in Holy Scripture. Unfortunately, it is often mischaracterized and misused, by… guess who? - Sinners!

This phrase works well to redirect attention away from the sinner. With the moral decay that we see today in the world, is that really the right thing to do? Is this really helping the sinner….maybe not.

People need to be held accountable for their actions. Consequences and accountability are great deterrents and this can be accomplished in many different ways.

Looking the other way and not rebuking the sinner, or the person committing the sin…same thing… doesn’t help the sinner.

Your thoughts?
 
To all Catholics:
Before ridiculing any member of these denominations, it is necessary to have a greater understanding of the nature of protestant churches. In the Catholic Church, every Catholic must agree to everything the church teaches. In most Protestant churches, the members follow and believe in the doctrinal issues of their denomination (usually), but that doesn’t mean they agree with 100% of what their denomination says. For example issues like abortion aren’t voted on by the whole denomination, but rather a general assembly or a committee or a liberal Bishop.
 
Will you ever start a thread that is NOT aimed at ridicule or disproving someone else’s faith? People like you do more harm than good. Any group, or person for that matter, that supports abortion are sick. That includes catholics and protestants. Your threads distort truth about others, and they cause nothing but arguements. You hide behind “I love my Christian brothers and sisters”, but YOUR fruit suggests otherwise. If you believe someone to be in the wrong that is fine. But consistently distorting the way others think and believe is wrong. It’s a false witness. Check your own eyes before you look into the eyes of others. You are a thoughtless bully who has nothing better to do that cause dissention. I wish moderators would call people like you (prot’s and cath’s alike) out more often for the cruel words you produce. Start acting out what you say you believe before you start exhorting others to do the same. You’re a joke and a hinderance to unity.

I can safely say, just as one of my friends on here who is a devout catholic has said, YOU are the biggest hinderance to me joining the rcc than anything else. If being a catholic means being associated with people like you I would rather just stay put.
 
reteeks21 said:
Will you ever start a thread that is NOT aimed at ridicule or disproving someone else’s faith? People like you do more harm than good. Any group, or person for that matter, that supports abortion are sick. That includes catholics and protestants. Your threads distort truth about others, and they cause nothing but arguements. You hide behind “I love my Christian brothers and sisters”, but YOUR fruit suggests otherwise. If you believe someone to be in the wrong that is fine. But consistently distorting the way others think and believe is wrong. It’s a false witness. Check your own eyes before you look into the eyes of others. You are a thoughtless bully who has nothing better to do that cause dissention. I wish moderators would call people like you (prot’s and cath’s alike) out more often for the cruel words you produce. Start acting out what you say you believe before you start exhorting others to do the same. You’re a joke and a hinderance to unity.

I can safely say, just as one of my friends on here who is a devout catholic has said, YOU are the biggest hinderance to me joining the rcc than anything else. If being a catholic means being associated with people like you I would rather just stay put.
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those are strong words too. but if truly you’re searching for the truth, your focus must be on Jesus Christ, not on what others do. remember how the jews misbehaved when moses was leading them to the promised land. thanks God Christianity focused on the Triune God, not on how the jews misbehaved. i’ll pray for you that the Holy Spirit leads you to the truth.
God bless.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Who are the Protestant, non- Catholic, Christian Denominations who do not reject the following?

  1. *]Homosexual “Marriage”
    What are their names?
Click to expand...

  1. Everyone knows the Episcopals are gay (yuk!!) and the Lutherans (ELCA) as well as German Lutherans are close to going gay too.
    “German lutherans agonise over gay bishop
    A Lutheran church in northern Germany is divided over the candidacy of an openly gay archdeacon for the post of bishop
    Berlin – Germany’s Lutheran Church has become embroiled in a debate over whether to elect its first openly gay bishop.” (Expatica)
    I think they voted this past July but I can’t find the results:shrug:

    This just in…
    On July 12, by a vote of 77 - 56, the Synod of the North Elbian Evangelical Lutheran Church chose Gerhard Ulrich provost of Kappeln-an-der-Schlei to serve as bishop for the Diocese of Schleswig. Rev. Ulrich defeated Rev. Horst Gorski (lutheranconfessions.com)
    Gorski is the practicing gay reverend.
 
John7 said:
Everyone knows the Episcopals are gay (yuk!!) and the Lutherans (ELCA) as well as German Lutherans are close to going gay too.
“German lutherans agonise over gay bishop
A Lutheran church in northern Germany is divided over the candidacy of an openly gay archdeacon for the post of bishop
Berlin – Germany’s Lutheran Church has become embroiled in a debate over whether to elect its first openly gay bishop.” (Expatica)
I think they voted this past July but I can’t find the results:shrug:

This just in…
On July 12, by a vote of 77 - 56, the Synod of the North Elbian Evangelical Lutheran Church chose Gerhard Ulrich provost of Kappeln-an-der-Schlei to serve as bishop for the Diocese of Schleswig. Rev. Ulrich defeated Rev. Horst Gorski (lutheranconfessions.com)
Gorski is the practicing gay reverend.
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You disgust me, coming out with a quote like ‘Everyone knows the Episcopals are gay (yuk!!)’.
 
emarc said:
those are strong words too. but if truly you’re searching for the truth, your focus must be on Jesus Christ, not on what others do. remember how the jews misbehaved when moses was leading them to the promised land. thanks God Christianity focused on the Triune God, not on how the jews misbehaved. i’ll pray for you that the Holy Spirit leads you to the truth.
God bless.
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Thank you for the prayers, and thank you especially for the polite way you informed me that you would be praying for me.
 
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