“Late Pope Could Be Saint Soon.” How? WHY?

[Steve_O_Brien]

The Sunday Times of London has published a report claiming that Pope John Paul II is nearing sainthood:

newsdaily.com/TopNews/UPI-1-20070121-15225800-bc-vatican-saintpope.xml



I don’t understand how or why it would be possible for the Catholic Church to beatify or canonize John Paul II.

As Catholics, let’s pray for the repose of the soul of our deceased Holy Father, and let’s be grateful for his issuance of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the greatest contribution of his problematic pontificate. But let’s ask God to help us come to grips with the fact that John Paul II presided over horrific scandals, without taking adequate actions to end them. This fact makes his beatification impossible. I’m referring to these scandals:

1. The scandal of the general post-Vatican II disintegration of the human elements of the one true Church. By failing to use the authority that God gave him, John Paul II permitted attacks on faith and morals within the Church–attacks emanating to a large extent from a grievous misinterpretation of the Second Vatican Council, which did not annul, but reaffirmed, all the traditional teachings of the Church.
2. **The scandal of the bishops’ failure to excommunicate politicians who support the legalized murder of unborn children. **How can abortion be murder if it’s possible to defend its legalization and at the same time receive Holy Communion as a Catholic in ostensible good standing? It doesn’t take a doctorate in theology to see the blatant contradiction involved in this scandal.
3. The scandal of not preventing the commission of sexual sins by priests against minors. This scandal alone–one of the worst in the entire history of the Church–should lead Catholics to the conclusion that John Paul II cannot be beatified.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[chicago]

If we all had to be perfect to everyone’s eyes on earth, none would ever attain sainthood.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

If we all had to be perfect to everyone’s eyes on earth, none would ever attain sainthood.

A canonized saint is not someone who has the perfection that God possesses. No human being possesses that kind of perfection. Still, a canonized saint is someone who cooperates with God’s grace to such an extent that he or she can be said to have practiced all the virtues in a heroic manner. A saint is a hero or heroine.

Please look again at the three scandals that Pope John Paul II failed to address adequately. Can a Pope who failed really to confront those scandals be called heroic?

Please compare Pope John Paul II’s actions with those of Pope St. Pius X in the latter’s confrontation with the heresy of Modernism.

The facts speak for themselves.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[chicago]

A canonized saint is not someone who has the perfection that God possesses. No human being possesses that kind of perfection. Still, a canonized saint is someone who cooperates with God’s grace to such an extent that he or she can be said to have practiced all the virtues in a heroic manner. A saint is a hero or heroine.

As I believe that most would say John Paul II, indeed, was.

Please look again at the three scandals that Pope John Paul II failed to address adequately. Can a Pope who failed really to confront those scandals be called heroic?

It is amazing that ANY bishop can possibly get into heaven, considering all of the troubles he must deal with. (Indeed, perhaps this accounts for the tradition of a bishop remaining in purgatory until the last ash of his gallero falls from the cathedral celing). One can legitimately deabte whether his course of action of inaction on these things was best or wanting. But neither can one necessarily prove than any preferred method of confrontation would have been more helpful and worthy. I think that his life was certainly one of heroic virtue and witness, nonethless.

Please compare Pope John Paul II’s actions with those of Pope St. Pius X in the latter’s confrontation with the heresy of Modernism.

Some would argue that Pius X’s confrontation was somewhat due to misunderstandings which could have been dealt with better.

The facts speak for themselves.

Well, your interpretation does, at least.

Keep and spread the Faith.

As John Paul II helped so many to do so well!

 

[Della]

People are not canonized according to how well they administered their ecclesiastic office, if they held any, but according to their personal sanctity.

Besides, every pontificate has problems, some worse than others, and the whole world isn’t the USA. It is not the fault of any pope if people rebel or grievously sin. The problems you cited are being addressed. Perhaps not as quickly as many of us would like. The wheels at the Vatican turn slowly, but they do turn eventually.

The Holy Father has got all the nations and all the peoples of the world to be concerned about, not just one. We Americans tend to be a bit too myopic, thinking everything revolves around us and our problems, but it doesn’t.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

I think that his life was certainly one of heroic virtue and witness, nonethless.

When Pope John Paul II issued the new catechism, he bore witness to the truth of the Catholic Faith, and we should follow his outstanding example in that sense.

Nonetheless, when John Paul II allowed the three scandals listed in post #1 to continue, he was, in the objective sense, bearing a counter-witness that we should not imitate.

Please see the words of Christ in Mt 23:1-3.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

People are not canonized according to how well they administered their ecclesiastic office, if they held any, but according to their personal sanctity.

Personal sanctity for the holder of an ecclesiastical office demands the repression of scandal.

That’s not just my personal opinion. It’s the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Please see CCC 2285, 2287.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

The wheels at the Vatican turn slowly, but they do turn eventually.

When it came to introducing every Protestant innovation into the Holy Mass with Paul VI’s Mass the “wheels at the Vatican” were cranking, I think that was done in 5 months.

I agree with the OP, I don’t see in light of the scandals, and relatively silence and failure to address them appropriately of Pope Johnn Paul II (let’s not forget the Vatican Bank Scandal too), I don’t see how it can be said John Paul II is a canonized Saint. Let’s not even get into the seemingly endless pictures that will scandalize the Church for probably the remainder of the world, from kissing a koran, to celebrating Mass with bare breasted natives, and wearing Native American pontifical head dressings.

People are not canonized according to how well they administered their ecclesiastic office.

When you are Peter’s successor you are held to a higher standard, perhaps that’s why only two Popes of the last 800 years are canonized Saints.

 

[Della]

Personal sanctity for the holder of an ecclesiastical office demands the repression of scandal.

That’s not just my personal opinion. It’s the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Please see CCC 2285, 2287.

Keep and spread the Faith.

And I’m sure those investigating JPII’s case will take all such things into consideration. That’s their duty.

Really, I don’t understand what you hope to accomplish with this list of JPII’s supposed laxes in office. It isn’t up to you or me who is canonized and who isn’t. If JPII is canonized it will be for all the right reasons, I’m sure.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

And I’m sure those investigating JPII’s case will take all such things into consideration. That’s their duty.

Really, I don’t understand what you hope to accomplish with this list of JPII’s supposed laxes in office. It isn’t up to you or me who is canonized and who isn’t. If JPII is canonized it will be for all the right reasons, I’m sure.

The lapses during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II are not “supposed.” They are real.

I hope to accomplish the speaking of my mind on issues of great consequence to every Catholic, in accordance with the following section of the catechism that John Paul II himself published: 907.

In a time of “diabolical disorientation” in the Catholic Church (the words are those of Sister Lucia of the Fatima apparitions), I also hope to preserve both my faith and my sanity.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[chicago]

When Pope John Paul II issued the new catechism, he bore witness to the truth of the Catholic Faith, and we should follow his outstanding example in that sense.

You do realize that the instigator of the effort for a new catechism was none other than Cardinal Law?

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

You do realize that the instigator of the effort for a new catechism was none other than Cardinal Law?

That shows that God works through flawed human instruments.

The high priest Caiaphas unconsciously prophesied the Redemption of the human race: Jn 11:49-52.

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Della]

The lapses during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II are not “supposed.” They are real.

I think that is debatable, but I won’t argue the point.

I hope to accomplish the speaking of my mind on issues of great consequence to every Catholic, in accordance with the following section of the catechism that John Paul II himself published: 907.

In a time of “diabolical disorientation” in the Catholic Church (the words are those of Sister Lucia of the Fatima apparitions), I also hope to preserve both my faith and my sanity.

Keep and spread the Faith.

It’s fine to speak your mind, but I have to wonder, what will happen to your faith if JPII is canonized? Will you lose it if he is?

I truly believe you are too focused on matters that you can do nothing about, and I know how frustrating that can be. But, you have to understand that the leadership of the Church is filled with flawed human beings–it always has been (take Peter for example and his many failings) and always will be until Jesus comes again.

If you are able to act on some of these issues within your own diocese/parish then by all means do so. But when it comes to who is canonized and who isn’t, that is not within your power or mine. And it may just be, you have to admit, that you are laying all your frustrations at JPII’s feet precisely because you feel helpless to make changes you feel need to be done. So, get involved in whatever way you can and leave the rest to God. It’s all any of us can do.

 

[bones_IV]

That shows that God works through flawed human instruments.

The high priest Caiaphas unconsciously prophesied the Redemption of the human race: Jn 11:49-52.

Keep and spread the Faith.

I think that your attribution of the three scandals to John Paul II is overblown and exaggerated.

As far as Jn 11:49-52. Weak argument.

Try reading Is 43:5; Jer 23:3-5; Ezek 34:23; 37:21-24.

Perhaps it would do you good to read this statement by St. John Chrysostom, “What is the meaning of ‘to gather into one those who are scattered abroad’? He made them one body. He who dwells in Rome knows that the Christians of India are his members” (Hom. on St. John, 65, 1).

Don’t make yourself holier than the Church.

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

And it may just be, you have to admit, that you are laying all your frustrations at JPII’s feet precisely because you feel helpless to make changes you feel need to be done. So, get involved in whatever way you can and leave the rest to God. It’s all any of us can do.

Wise words, I know that’s what I do, the state of the Church has me gravely worried, and sometimes venting is the only option. I don’t think many Catholics have much faith in our Bishops who show essentially no backbone on very important issues such as stopping liturgical abuses, and allowing pro-abortion politicians to receive the Lord, not just allowing it but using it as a photo-op. It’s scary sometimes to think this is the crop leading Christ’s Church and deciding on canonizations.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

It’s fine to speak your mind, but I have to wonder, what will happen to your faith if JPII is canonized? Will you lose it if he is?

Since the Church is infallible in canonizations, we can rest assured that God will not allow the canonization of anyone who should not be declared a saint. Please see Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, page 299. (I cite Ott with great reluctance: at times, he unwittingly undermines Catholic doctrine, as he does, for example, on page 205. Still, his textbook is generally solid, and it’s conveniently available.)

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Della]

Since the Church is infallible in canonizations, we can rest assured that God will not allow the canonization of anyone who should not be declared a saint. Please see Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, page 299. (I cite Ott with great reluctance: at times, he unwittingly undermines Catholic doctrine, as he does, for example, on page 205. Still, his textbook is generally solid, and it’s conveniently available.)

Keep and spread the Faith.

So, if you would not lose your faith, why does the possible canonization of JPII bother you so much? Surely it’s a matter for the Church to settle, and I highly doubt any of us will be called as witnesses.

 

[Erich]

you have to understand that the leadership of the Church is filled with flawed human beings–it always has been (take Peter for example and his many failings) and always will be until Jesus comes again.

Good point… in Mark 8:33, Jesus rebukes Saint Peter (though of course he wasn’t yet a saint in heaven at the time): “Get behind me, Satan. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”

And don’t forget about that “scandal” of denying Jesus three times.

These, too, show that God works through flawed human instruments… some of whom are deemed (via canonization ceremonies) worthy of being imitated!

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

“Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”

-Pope St. Felix III

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

“Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them.”

-Pope St. Felix III

John Paul’s Encyclicals have been a great defense of Truth in modern times. He has applied the teaching of Christ and the love of Christ to the problems that confront us. He has raised a voice that we are still understanding that defends against the age of relativism.

He seems like an excellent candidate for saintood, in his teaching office, personal sanctity, devotion to Mary and witness.

That he wasn’t an autocrat on the bureacracy of the Vatican seems to me to be a prudential judgement.