“Late Pope Could Be Saint Soon.” How? WHY?

[Ecce_homo_1]

John Paul’s Encyclicals have been a great defense of Truth in modern times. He has applied the teaching of Christ and the love of Christ to the problems that confront us. He has raised a voice that we are still understanding that defends against the age of relativism.

He seems like an excellent candidate for saintood, in his teaching office, personal sanctity, devotion to Mary and witness.

That he wasn’t an autocrat on the bureacracy of the Vatican seems to me to be a prudential judgement.

No doubt he’s all that, but there’s no denying that A LOT happened on his watch was to the detriment of the Church. Not saying he’s a bad guy, but there’s a reason why canonization of Popes are rare, because if people can point to instances where the Pope allowed scandal or say modernist heresies to pervade the Church without a clear cut defense, then how can one be eligible for canonization?

Not being canonized a Saint doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. Being a Pope and canonized is a tough business, so is the nature of the Office.

 

[rayne89]

A saint is someone the church declares with certainty that he/she is in Heaven. Are you suggesting there is possibilty that Pope John Paul II is in hell?

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

A saint is someone the church declares with certainty that he/she is in Heaven. Are you suggesting there is possibilty that Pope John Paul II is in hell?

As a Catholic I do believe in another alternative… Think 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. It’s not for me to judge though, but commenting on the documented office of a Pope and canonization is a different story.

If the Church canonizes Pope John Paul II then it is done, but it hasn’t happened yet so it’s a fair topic.

 

[water]

The Sunday Times of London has published a report claiming that Pope John Paul II is nearing sainthood:

newsdaily.com/TopNews/UPI-1-20070121-15225800-bc-vatican-saintpope.xml



I don’t understand how or why it would be possible for the Catholic Church to beatify or canonize John Paul II.

As Catholics, let’s pray for the repose of the soul of our deceased Holy Father, and let’s be grateful for his issuance of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the greatest contribution of his problematic pontificate. But let’s ask God to help us come to grips with the fact that John Paul II presided over horrific scandals, without taking adequate actions to end them. This fact makes his beatification impossible. I’m referring to these scandals:

1. The scandal of the general post-Vatican II disintegration of the human elements of the one true Church. By failing to use the authority that God gave him, John Paul II permitted attacks on faith and morals within the Church–attacks emanating to a large extent from a grievous misinterpretation of the Second Vatican Council, which did not annul, but reaffirmed, all the traditional teachings of the Church.
2. The scandal of the bishops’ failure to excommunicate politicians who support the legalized murder of unborn children. How can abortion be murder if it’s possible to defend its legalization and at the same time receive Holy Communion as a Catholic in ostensible good standing? It doesn’t take a doctorate in theology to see the blatant contradiction involved in this scandal.
3. The scandal of not preventing the commission of sexual sins by priests against minors. This scandal alone–one of the worst in the entire history of the Church–should lead Catholics to the conclusion that John Paul II cannot be beatified.

Keep and spread the Faith.

First of all, could you prove the Pope did those things on purpose or this is just rumore?

Secondly, can you name one Saint who used to live a bad life and now is a famous Saint? Do you remember who that is?

Third, anyone in Heaven is Saint. Are you suggesting that Pope JP II ends up in Hell?

However, canonizing a Saint is not an easy thing - we have to look at lots of things- miracles, etc…

 

[tee_eff_em]

[Apologies if I am injecting a mundane question into this hot topic]
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NewsDaily
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The Sunday Times of London said John Paul has already been credited with the three miracles required for sainthood.

Three? I thought only two miracles were required?


tee

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

Third, anyone in Heaven is Saint. Are you suggesting that Pope JP II ends up in Hell?

Does the Church still teach purgatory anymore? This Heaven or Hell hard line is for evangelicals. 99.99% of all Heaven bound Catholics are probably either in purgatory or headed there. I know if by God’s mercy I’m saved, then I won’t be in any position to view the Beatific vision upon death, most of us do not lose our attachment to sin while on Earth.

 

[tkdnick]

A saint is someone the church declares with certainty that he/she is in Heaven. Are you suggesting there is possibilty that Pope John Paul II is in hell?

While I personally think JP II is a saint, the reality is that yes he could be in hell. I am not saying this is my opinion, nor do I think it’s realistic, becuase I personally believe him the be a saint. But it is possible for him to be in hell. There is also a 3rd option. It is possible that he is on his way to Heaven through purgatory.

Until The Church makes a specific declaration through the guidance of the Holy Spirit it is impossible to know where JP II is. (my personal opinion is that he’s in Heaven)

 

[tkdnick]

[Apologies if I am injecting a mundane question into this hot topic]

Three? I thought only two miracles were required?


tee

I’m pretty sure I remember that it’s 1 miracle while living and 2 miracles after dying.

 

[rayne89]

Does the Church still teach purgatory anymore? This Heaven or Hell hard line is for evangelicals. 99.99% of all Heaven bound Catholics are probably either in purgatory or headed there. I know if by God’s mercy I’m saved, then I won’t be in any position to view the Beatific vision upon death, most of us do not lose our attachment to sin while on Earth.

Yes I most certainly do believe in purgatory. Considering the suffering toward the end JPII life my own personal opinion is that if there was a need for him to be in purgatory that it would have been brief. Of course I am not God, nor do I have the authority of the Church. That’s just my opinion.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I’m pretty sure I remember that it’s 1 miracle while living and 2 miracles after dying.

I have never heard of such a thing!?

(Two after dying, sure. One for beatification, one for canonization – But one while living???)

tee

 

[tkdnick]

I have never heard of such a thing!?

(Two after dying, sure. One for beatification, one for canonization – But one while living???)

tee

I could certainly be mistaken. That’s just what I thought I remembered from back in the day of learning about it.

Maybe you were right. I just did a search and here’s a link to one place I found. catholic-pages.com/saints/process.asp

 

[AELondon]

I think we’re expending too much energy on this subject. If we all agree that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church to make infallible declarations on these matters - why worry? We’re not privy to the full investigation that the Church performs and so it seems a bit half-baked to be making statements one way or another. However, I find it hard to believe that one’s eternal destination is based upon one’s competency, even perfection, as a bureaucrat. Were there failures. Yes, but also great successes (think: fall of communism, growth of Church in developing world, and beautiful encyclicals).

We should be expending this energy to pray for the repose of JPII and all the faithfully departed.

 

[LilyM]

I think we’re expending too much energy on this subject. If we all agree that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church to make infallible declarations on these matters - why worry? We’re not privy to the full investigation that the Church performs and so it seems a bit half-baked to be making statements one way or another. However, I find it hard to believe that one’s eternal destination is based upon one’s competency, even perfection, as a bureaucrat. Were there failures. Yes, but also great successes (think: fall of communism, growth of Church in developing world, and beautiful encyclicals).

We should be expending this energy to pray for the repose of JPII and all the faithfully departed.

Amen. I don’t think the newspapers are a trustworthy source as to how close JP2 may be to canonisation. Remember he hasn’t even been declared Venerable or Blessed, which is one of the many steps required beforehand.

As for the scandals mentioned in the OP - not all of them can with any fairness be laid entirely at JP2’s own door. I don’t think anyone will ever know precisely how much he could have done or how much he did do in regard to each of them.

 

[chicago]

I could certainly be mistaken. That’s just what I thought I remembered from back in the day of learning about it.

The rules were streamlined a couple decades back. (Which is part of why there are so many new saints now). I don’t know about any requirement for a miracle while alive, but it used to be more than two after death.

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

As for the scandals mentioned in the OP - not all of them can with any fairness be laid entirely at JP2’s own door. I don’t think anyone will ever know precisely how much he could have done or how much he did do in regard to each of them.

Dear Catholic friends, let’s look at the facts and at logic.

Take only scandal #2, the failure to excommunicate pro-abortion politicians to keep them from receiving Holy Communion sacrilegiously.

John Paul II failed to excommunicate anyone for this reason, despite the fact that he taught that abortion is “murder” (encyclical Evangelium vitae, section 58). Nor did he urge any of his bishops to issue such excommunications.

As Joe Sixpack, what on earth am I to think when some non-confused, non-scandalized Catholic tells me that abortion is murder? Can you understand the logic behind Joe Sixpack’s objection if he says something like the following?

"How can abortion be that serious? If it were really that serious, then the Catholic Church would have to throw those politicians out on their rear ends rather than let them receive Communion. Right? I mean, if a Catholic politician were to support lynching, then the Church would have to excommunicate that politician to prevent a terrible scandal. Right?"

Does Joe Sixpack have a point or not?

Keep and spread the Faith.

 

[Caesar]

A saint is merely someone whom is in heaven. The Canonized Saints are those whom the Church has infallibly declared to have been saved- in other words, those whom we know beyond a doubt to be in heaven.

Regardless of some of his actions (or lack thereof) John Paul II can be declared a Saint without problem.

 

[Holly3278]

He is already a saint in my mind.

 

[Marilena]

As I believe that most would say John Paul II, indeed, was.

It is amazing that ANY bishop can possibly get into heaven, considering all of the troubles he must deal with. (Indeed, perhaps this accounts for the tradition of a bishop remaining in purgatory until the last ash of his gallero falls from the cathedral celing). One can legitimately deabte whether his course of action of inaction on these things was best or wanting. But neither can one necessarily prove than any preferred method of confrontation would have been more helpful and worthy. I think that his life was certainly one of heroic virtue and witness, nonethless.

Some would argue that Pius X’s confrontation was somewhat due to misunderstandings which could have been dealt with better.

Well, your interpretation does, at least.

As John Paul II helped so many to do so well!

the 2 popes are vastly different. how can one compare them?

 

[prodigal-sun]

So there MR O’Brian, who has given you the authority to know who is in heaven!

That is what a saint is you know… some one in heaven.

There are certain guidlines for anyone to be beatified, so if those are met why would he not be classified as such?

It amazes me when people on here sit back in there arm chair and pass judgement on other peoples affairs when clearly they don’t have a clue what really went on during any given event. Like you have some marvelous insight (fly on the wall) to all the circumstances and thought processess of the person in question.

someone else mentioned on here that Americans (God bless you) can be quite myopic… it is true! The other 1 billion or so catholics require the popes attention too…

 

[Steve_O_Brien]

So there MR O’Brien, who has given you the authority to know who is in heaven!

That is what a saint is you know… some one in heaven.

There are certain guidlines for anyone to be beatified, so if those are met why would he not be classified as such?

It amazes me when people on here sit back in their arm chair and pass judgement on other peoples affairs when clearly they don’t have a clue what really went on during any given event. Like you have some marvelous insight (fly on the wall) to all the circumstances and thought processes of the person in question.

Someone else mentioned on here that Americans (God bless you) can be quite myopic… it is true! The other 1 billion or so Catholics require the pope’s attention too…

The above post does not answer any of the three points made in post #1 on this thread.

Question: does anyone deny that the three items listed in post #1 are scandals?

Please let me take the liberty of urging my fellow Catholics to read the section on scandal in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which was promulgated by Pope John Paul II. The sections are 2284-2287.

Keep and spread the Faith.