“No sin can separate us from Him (God), even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jimmy_B
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Jimmy_B said:
What do you think?

Do you agree with this Martin Luther quote?

I would like hear the Protestant, non-Catholic, or former Catholic response to this; especially the response from those who actually believe in the false belief of , “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS).
Click to expand...
If that were so, then there would be an absence of free will.
The new testament states that we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling. It is a fact that a merciful and loving God
will give us every grace to suceed but only if we want it. Jesus states that if we love God we will keep His commandments. I am
Catholic.
Celtic Carole
 
JoeBlow said:
Not unless he means something else I’m not aware of.

That verse was written to Christians. Skip over to 1 John and it tells us that those who continue to sin are not born again.

So it you were to willfully and repeatedly do these things then, yes, you’re very much seperated from God by your sin.
Click to expand...
I sadly find myself confessing the same old sins because I am tempted by the same old weakenesses. Of course I do not want to keep doing the same sins and I am very very sorry that I offend such infinitely merciful Goodness, but I do.

I do not lose heart however, and I certainly do not think that I am far away from so loving and merciful a God. I love Him so, I dearly dearly love Him. I desire only to do His will and only to bring Him glory. My God can do with me whatever He wills. I submit my totality to Him and have faith to believe that despite my many, my many many weaknesses, He still loves me very deeply and dearly,

Though I often let Him down he NEVER lets me down, NEVER STOPS showing His love for me in so many different ways. I NEVER feel alone. I know He is always there with me in every trial and pain.

Yes I am a willful and persistent sinner. But I know that nothing created human or spirit can keep me from my dearly Beloved Creator Father God and nothing can stop Him from loving this unfortunate scarlet sinful wretch.

Blessings and peace
 
CELTIC_CAROLE said:
If that were so, then there would be an absence of free will.
The new testament states that we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling. It is a fact that a merciful and loving God
will give us every grace to suceed but only if we want it. Jesus states that if we love God we will keep His commandments. I am
Catholic.
Celtic Carole
Click to expand...
Well put!
 
Lilyflower said:
I sadly find myself confessing the same old sins because I am tempted by the same old weakenesses. Of course I do not want to keep doing the same sins and I am very very sorry that I offend such infinitely merciful Goodness, but I do.

I do not lose heart however, and I certainly do not think that I am far away from so loving and merciful a God. I love Him so, I dearly dearly love Him. I desire only to do His will and only to bring Him glory. My God can do with me whatever He wills. I submit my totality to Him and have faith to believe that despite my many, my many many weaknesses, He still loves me very deeply and dearly,

Though I often let Him down he NEVER lets me down, NEVER STOPS showing His love for me in so many different ways. I NEVER feel alone. I know He is always there with me in every trial and pain.

Yes I am a willful and persistent sinner. But I know that nothing created human or spirit can keep me from my dearly Beloved Creator Father God and nothing can stop Him from loving this unfortunate scarlet sinful wretch.

Blessings and peace
Click to expand...
perfect describition of myself…keeep going Lillyflower…my trust lies in who Jesus is He is the one who will not quench the smoking flax nor break off the bent reed,He is also the one who will judge me justly and not unfairly.
 
I think Romans 8:38-39 would agree with Mr. Luther on this one (and yes, I’m Catholic).

God is never going to abandon us, especially in the midst of our own depravity, in those times when we need him most.

God always offers us his forgiveness; it’s our job to be open and receptive to that, to let his mercy take us and transform us.

Yes, sin deadens one to the effects of grace on the soul, but it by no means eliminates the grace.

It’s a strong assertion, intentionally hyperbolic, but I do agree with his basic premise: God does not love us any less because we are sinful; on the contrary, he offers us his redeeming grace, his very life.

Heretics have their moments. 😃
 
St_Aloysius said:
I think Romans 8:38-39 would agree with Mr. Luther on this one (and yes, I’m Catholic).

God is never going to abandon us, especially in the midst of our own depravity, in those times when we need him most.

God always offers us his forgiveness; it’s our job to be open and receptive to that, **to let **his mercy take us and transform us.
Yes, sin deadens one to the effects of grace on the soul, but it by no means eliminates the grace.

It’s a strong assertion, intentionally hyperbolic, but I do agree with his basic premise: God does not love us any less because we are sinful; on the contrary, he offers us his redeeming grace, his very life.

Heretics have their moments. 😃
Click to expand...
St_Aloysius,
The highlighted part is so, not to be insulting, Lutheran of you. I appreciate your post…er… except perhaps the last line. 😃

Jon
 
Jimmy_B said:
Hello Micheal,

There is some truth to this…but I agree with Catholicism and not with Martin Luther.

Where do you stand and why? With Martin Luther or the Catholic Church, or someone else? Sorry if I missed something but it was hard to tell from your post, which position or which “side” you were taking…If any.

So, where do you stand and why? With Martin Luther or the Catholic Church, or someone else?

I have an opinion, but I would like to hear from you.

Thank you for you post…

Peace 🙂
Click to expand...

First: apologies for the delay.​

Second: And also to you 🙂

Third: The reasoning applied to those words of Luther, would, if applied to the words of St. Ignatius Loyola, convict him as well. Since his words are not the immoral saying that a hostile critic might suppose - that they have at times supposed - perhaps the same is true of Luther’s words. If Luther can be interpreted in a sense which does not reflect badly on him, ISTM one should see whether a “benign interpretation” is possible before condemning him. (Shouldn’t it be a cause of joy if someone is innocent of an accusation, & not guilty ? :))

I don’t see the choice as being between Luther, or the Church. Luther’s words can be interpreted unfavourably - but is that the likeliest interpretation ? Given his fondness for hyperbole, & his theology, I think not. The fact that he’s Luther, is beside the point; fair play is irrelevant to what “side” someone is on. Stripped of its hyperbole, what Luther says is AFAICS (if this “benign interpretation” is correct) no more than St. Paul says in Romans 8: that nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Hello emeraldcoast,

Yes, the use of artificial birth control is still forbidden in Catholicism. However, it is my understanding that if a woman is prescribed the “pill” for another unrelated illness, other than for birth control, that, that would be an exception. I’m not sure though, so, if there is anyone here who knows the answer to this question, maybe they can help out emeraldcoast.

Peace
Click to expand...
It is the 40th anniversary since this has been written, perhaps reading it may help some to understand better.

It is a love which is total—that very special form of personal friendship in which husband and wife generously share everything, allowing no unreasonable exceptions and not thinking solely of their own convenience. Whoever really loves his partner loves not only for what he receives, but loves that partner for the partner’s own sake, content to be able to enrich the other with the gift of himself.

Married love is also faithful and exclusive of all other, and this until death. This is how husband and wife understood it on the day on which, fully aware of what they were doing, they freely vowed themselves to one another in marriage. Though this fidelity of husband and wife sometimes presents difficulties, no one has the right to assert that it is impossible; it is, on the contrary, always honorable and meritorious. The example of countless married couples proves not only that fidelity is in accord with the nature of marriage, but also that it is the source of profound and enduring happiness.

Finally, this love is fecund. It is not confined wholly to the loving interchange of husband and wife; it also contrives to go beyond this to bring new life into being. “Marriage and conjugal love are by their nature ordained toward the procreation and education of children. Children are really the supreme gift of marriage and contribute in the highest degree to their parents’ welfare.” (8)

ENCYCLICAL LETTER
HUMANAE VITAE
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
PAUL VI
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
 
allhers said:
It is the 40th anniversary since this has been written, perhaps reading it may help some to understand better.

It is a love which is total—that very special form of personal friendship in which husband and wife generously share everything, allowing no unreasonable exceptions and not thinking solely of their own convenience. Whoever really loves his partner loves not only for what he receives, but loves that partner for the partner’s own sake, content to be able to enrich the other with the gift of himself.

Married love is also faithful and exclusive of all other, and this until death. This is how husband and wife understood it on the day on which, fully aware of what they were doing, they freely vowed themselves to one another in marriage. Though this fidelity of husband and wife sometimes presents difficulties, no one has the right to assert that it is impossible; it is, on the contrary, always honorable and meritorious. The example of countless married couples proves not only that fidelity is in accord with the nature of marriage, but also that it is the source of profound and enduring happiness.

Finally, this love is fecund. It is not confined wholly to the loving interchange of husband and wife; it also contrives to go beyond this to bring new life into being. “Marriage and conjugal love are by their nature ordained toward the procreation and education of children. Children are really the supreme gift of marriage and contribute in the highest degree to their parents’ welfare.” (8)

ENCYCLICAL LETTER
HUMANAE VITAE
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
PAUL VI
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
Click to expand...
Thank you allhers, this is a much better response than mine, maybe I’m getting a little lazy……

Thank you for this post and link, a must-read for all Christians.

Peace.
 
Jimmy_B said:
You made some excellent points here Michael… but you lost me when you started comparing Martin Luther to St. Ignatius. I have read them both, and although there may be some, a very few similarities, with these two men, for the most part, they are very different.

A similar writing style, consistent with a specific era, does not equal the same person.

I’ll take Saint Ignatius over Martin Luther any day.

Saint Ignatius embraced many of the things that Martin Luther rejected.

I think that even you would agree that Saint Ignatius, did not posses the same ego that Martin Luther did and that St. Ignatius believed in “surrendering” to ones God and ones Faith, where Luther, on the other hand, was more about questioning things, based on his (Luther’s) own intellect.
Click to expand...

What is wrong with questioning things ? What did Job do, that so annoyed his​

right-thinking, well-meaning, but mistaken friends ? He questioned God. If God can take being questioned, what is the Church, or any of us, or anything else in all creation, that it should not be questioned ? As for intellect - whose does any of us have ? Our own; so we have to use our own, for we have no one else’s.
Thank’s to Luther, the era of, “God on my terms” began.

Luther’s position on “personal interpretation” for example, attempts to justify… Luther’s "own “personal interpretations”, which was all well and fine, until his own "interpretations were challenged. Be careful of what you ask for…right?
Click to expand...

How is that sort of argument not applicable to all of us ? Any or all of us may be Catholic, or Lutheran, or whatever, purely as a way of justifying our own desires or the other corruptions in our hearts. If that argument is valid as an explanation of Luther’s beliefs, our own can hardly be exempt.​

This errant belief by Luther, of “personal interpretation”, came back to bite Luther in the backside…wouldn’t you agree? Luther’s “personal interpretation” doctrine has been a disaster for Christianity.

Now Protestants are trying to interpret was Luther said….Ya see what he started?.

Your Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Comparing what men say =///= comparing the men speaking. So it is irrelevant that the one is a canonised Saint, & the other is not. As is what Luther started: none of that casts any light on what Luther meant by the words quoted. The thread is not about Luther’s theology in general, but about this phrase, from a single letter, in particular. Even if it were not, how is it fair to convict a man on one count, merely because he has been found guilty on others ? That is not fair, & it is not logical.​

Not approving of someone’s theology, life or character is not a reason not to try to understand what they meant by their words. Do only Saints have a right to be read with sympathy ? That is to have one moral law for a Saint, & another for (in this case) Luther - which is a recipe for moral chaos.

I’ve not read much Luther, but I’d like to read more 🙂
 
“No sin can separate us from Him (God), even if we were to… commit adultery thousands of times each day.”

As if.:rolleyes: (that guy, Martin Luther, sounds more like he really was lost in fantasy land), which, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church defines as mortal sin of your own making.
 
allhers said:
“No sin can separate us from Him (God), even if we were to… commit adultery thousands of times each day.”

As if.:rolleyes: (that guy, Martin Luther, sounds more like he really was lost in fantasy land), which, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church defines as mortal sin of your own making.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top