“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

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A fine fully accredited institution both RA and ATS I believe. Thank you.
 
Rightlydivide said:
Bishop/Padre JB
And future guests if they show up
You think that…John only knew about this festival or what it celebrates from a book? Do you only know about Halloween or the 4th of July from a book? That may not be your intention. Of course Maccabees has some accurate history. That is one of the reasons we enjoy having them around to read but certainly not canonical. The reference part is tricky. We acknowledge a few references, nothing unusal about noncanonical writings being referenced here and there. None are attributed to as scripture like the other references from canonical OT books.

How many of the Deuterocanonical books were found in Hebrew? Thanks, you do not seem to be clear on that for me.
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I will answer the dead sea question
Relatively recent archeological findings and analysis of the Dead Sea scrolls (Qumran) of 1947 revealed that several deuterocanonical books were originally composed in Hebrew (Sirach, Judith, 1 Maccabees,) or Aramaic (Tobit). The Protestant reformers of the 16th century were not aware of the Hebrew and Aramic Versions of the deuterocanonical books in the Alexandrian canon. These are significant and noteworthy because it proves that some of these books were in circulation in Palestine and were accepted by Jewish groups there. Many of the Christian evangelists and apologists used the Alexandrian canon ( Septuagint LXX ) preserved (not composed or originally written) in Greek. Hellenists Jews from outside Palestine had their own synagogue where the Bible was read in Greek.
The Hebrews were native Palestinian Jews with their own synagogue. Their language was Aramaic and their Bible was read in Hebrew. There were complaints and disputations amongst these two Jewish groups ( Hellenists and Hebrews ), who used different languages, as is noted in ( Acts 6:1-2 ).
catholicevangelism.org/h-canon1.shtml
 
FrJohnB said:
I will answer the dead sea question
Relatively recent archeological findings and analysis of the Dead Sea scrolls (Qumran) of 1947 revealed that several deuterocanonical books were originally composed in Hebrew (Sirach, Judith, 1 Maccabees,) or Aramaic (Tobit). The Protestant reformers of the 16th century were not aware of the Hebrew and Aramic Versions of the deuterocanonical books in the Alexandrian canon. These are significant and noteworthy because it proves that some of these books were in circulation in Palestine and were accepted by Jewish groups there. Many of the Christian evangelists and apologists used the Alexandrian canon ( Septuagint LXX ) preserved (not composed or originally written) in Greek. Hellenists Jews from outside Palestine had their own synagogue where the Bible was read in Greek.
The Hebrews were native Palestinian Jews with their own synagogue. Their language was Aramaic and their Bible was read in Hebrew. There were complaints and disputations amongst these two Jewish groups ( Hellenists and Hebrews ), who used different languages, as is noted in ( Acts 6:1-2 ).
catholicevangelism.org/h-canon1.shtml
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But surely Father JB you know that an Alexandrian canon does not reflect recent scholarship? So you hold that the LXX is the Alexandrian canon to clarify? Does Padre JB believe the same thing?
 
FrJohnB said:
Padre
If he had gone to seminary like we have he would know what you speak about.:
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I am always very respectful to seminary trained scholars such as yourself from fine fully accredited universities.
 
Rightlydivide said:
But surely Father JB you know that an Alexandrian canon does not reflect recent scholarship? So you hold that the LXX is the Alexandrian canon to clarify? Does Padre JB believe the same thing?
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I think the key here is this line:
Many of the Christian evangelists and apologists used the Alexandrian canon ( Septuagint LXX ) preserved (not composed or originally written) in Greek. Hellenists Jews from outside Palestine had their own synagogue where the Bible was read in Greek.
I tend to refer to the LXX quite a bit as I look at it as directly translated from the Hebrew texts. To qualify, the Alexandrian cannon was preserved in the LXX. I would tend to think being as the link is from a Catholic site that Father John would think likewise.🙂

BTW my Anglican seminary is affiliated with Oxford, just in case you wanted to ask that.
 
Rightlydivide said:
But surely Father JB you know that an Alexandrian canon does not reflect recent scholarship? So you hold that the LXX is the Alexandrian canon to clarify? Does Padre JB believe the same thing?
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I might also add from the same site referenced:
The Ecumenical Council of Florence again affirmed the list of inspired books in 1442 A.D., about 100 years before the Council of Trent. The “Decretum pro Jacobitis” by Pope Eugenius IV lists the inspired books, and according to the common teaching of theologians, these documents are infallible True meaning of infallible states of doctrine. Since there was no urgent challenge or compelling reason why it should, the Ecumenical Council of Florence did not dogmatically pass on the canonicity of the inspired books. It did however teach that the books were inspired.
 
Padrej said:
I might also add from the same site referenced:
The Ecumenical Council of Florence again affirmed the list of inspired books in 1442 A.D., about 100 years before the Council of Trent. The “Decretum pro Jacobitis” by Pope Eugenius IV lists the inspired books, and according to the common teaching of theologians, these documents are infallible True meaning of infallible states of doctrine. Since there was no urgent challenge or compelling reason why it should, the Ecumenical Council of Florence did not dogmatically pass on the canonicity of the inspired books. It did however teach that the books were inspired.
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The question that I like to pose to Protestants is that IF the councils thought of these books as inspired why do you not? Protestants like to get on Catholics for not having the right Bible and having strange doctrines that are in error but yet the historic councils for years looked to these books as inspired, so essentially we have not changed the Bible but rather preserved it in tact. Does the Bible not say that you are not to add to or take away from it? We did not take away books considered by the councils as inspired. Who did?:eek:
 
Pitcharan said:
Hi, this is Pitcharan from India, a first generation catholic born to formerly Hindu parents who had embraced chrsitianity before their marriage, as a family; i.e. alongwith their parents (my grandparents - paternal and maternal).

I have seen many of your posts and impressed with your updates of scriptural history and deep interest and quest for unadulterated truth.

Despite a good catholic upbringing I did wander into atheism between the ages of 17 and 27 and gradually returned between the ages of 27 and 39. Now there is no looking or going back.

My this post addressed to you, is for two reasons:
  1. An urge to share my learnings on canonicity and inspired scriptures.
  2. To respond to your lament in one of your posts that no catholic ever came forward to bear witness to you.
Now coming to purpose 1., I am happy to share that I struggled with this for nearly 7 years between 1996 and 2003 and was rewarded with inspired explanations that enabled me to
  • come to terms with prima facie unacceptable contents of the bible.
  • find meaning in apparently ridiculous devotional practices
  • continue receiving explanantions and purpose of some of the most difficult and complex bibilical texts
Coming to purpose 2., I bear witness to these miraculaous events that I have personally expereiencd.
a) My parents’ families were led to Jesus through Marian devotion which is very popular among most hindus and muslims in India.

b) When I was 13 years old, a Hindu neighbour of ours became demon possessed one day and her loud cries and strange utternaces in several alien languages shunned the entire neighbourhood. She was an elderly woman with children and grandchildren who occupied the upstairs house. Her sons and daughters firstly engaged their own hindu exorcist (called Ojhas in India), who tried several things and failed to even slightly improve her condition. The family then hired a muslim exorcist (called Babas in India) through their close muslim friend. He too sincerely tried but failed to achieve any result. The desparate family approached us for help and my father told me to go and inform our parish priest (late Rev. Fr. AJ Adaikalam). He unassumingly but readily responded by ariving on a bicycle. At the very outset he said in a ‘matter of fact’ manner that he will drive out the demon in 5 minutes and we should not be perturbed by the temporary after effect of his hands shaking for a while. He proved his own words to the amazement of everyone and left humbly after politely refusing all rewards offered.

c) I have personally witnessed instant healing of a nagging psychological problem of a hindu colleague after drinking a glass of water from a popular miraculous spring near my present locality (Nagamangalam in Krishnagiri district of Tamilnadu) which is gradually turning into another Lourdes.
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What a beautiful testimony! That is one of the things I love about the Catholic church, you people still believe in miracles. My Husband told two Pastors about his Uncle’s miraculous healing at Lourdes and they both frowned! Baptists believe that miraculous gifts stopped when the Apostles died (they do not believe they have successors). They are not big fans aaf exorcism either. I just read yesterday about a non-Catholic pastor who went to Africa and the local folks asked him to cast out a demon from one of the people in the village. They had read the Bible and were certain the pastor would know what to do. He had to school himself rather quickly.
 
Padrej said:
I think the key here is this line:
Many of the Christian evangelists and apologists used the Alexandrian canon ( Septuagint LXX ) preserved (not composed or originally written) in Greek. Hellenists Jews from outside Palestine had their own synagogue where the Bible was read in Greek.
I tend to refer to the LXX quite a bit as I look at it as directly translated from the Hebrew texts. To qualify, the Alexandrian cannon was preserved in the LXX. I would tend to think being as the link is from a Catholic site that Father John would think likewise.🙂

BTW my Anglican seminary is affiliated with Oxford, just in case you wanted to ask that.
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What is the relation (if any) of the Textus Receptus to the above? I keep hearing that the TR is the only true source of the only true bible (King James, of course, “the Bible Jesus used” ;)) and I have no idea why they believe that is so. Their answers have not been very enlightening, shall we say.
 
Padrej said:
I think the key here is this line:
Many of the Christian evangelists and apologists used the Alexandrian canon ( Septuagint LXX ) preserved (not composed or originally written) in Greek. Hellenists Jews from outside Palestine had their own synagogue where the Bible was read in Greek.
I tend to refer to the LXX quite a bit as I look at it as directly translated from the Hebrew texts. To qualify, the Alexandrian cannon was preserved in the LXX. I would tend to think being as the link is from a Catholic site that Father John would think likewise.🙂

BTW my Anglican seminary is affiliated with Oxford, just in case you wanted to ask that.
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Bishop /Padre JB
How is it affiliated exactly?
 
Padrej said:
part of the same educational network.
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Please be more specific. I understand that your school is not regionally, nationally, or ATS or TRACS accredited and so I am interesting in how that is defined exactly. What does it mean to be part of the same educational network?
 
Springkeeper said:
What is the relation (if any) of the Textus Receptus to the above? I keep hearing that the TR is the only true source of the only true bible (King James, of course, “the Bible Jesus used” ;)) and I have no idea why they believe that is so. Their answers have not been very enlightening, shall we say.
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Textus Receptus - Meaning “Received Text” (1453 AD). This arose through an opportunity to study the Greek manuscripts instead of the Latin Vulgate. The “Textus Receptus” or Received Text was the standard Greek text in the sixteenth century after the invention of the printing press. It was the first published Greek text of the New Testament and for many years was the standard Greek text. This Greek New Testament has been edited on the basis of the latest evidence and in some cases corrected to fit the Latin text. The Textus Receptus has many editions, compiled by different groups using different sources, and in some cases were merely translations of the Latin Vulgate to the Greek. Some of the most important versions of the Textus Receptus are:
  1. Complutensian Polyglot, published in 1520
  2. Erasmus’s first edition published in February 1516 with many errors.
  3. Erasmus’s third edition of 1522 - with a deliberate addition in 1 John 5:7-8.
  4. 1550, the third edition of Robert Stephanus (Estienne) became one of the two standard texts of the Textus Receptus. His edition included variants of over a dozen manuscripts – including Manuscripts D and L - Codices Bezae (D) and Regius (L).
  5. 1624, the Elzevir text became the primary text but it was basically a copy of Stephanus’ work.
So not all of the editions of the Textus Receptus are identical. Some are based on different manuscripts, some parts are translations of the Latin. Some are copies of earlier poor translations.
In contrast:
Septuagint. The Greek Old Testament came to be the Bible of the early Christian Church. It was commissioned by the Greek emperor Ptolemy II to serve the Jewish people under Greek domination who were no longer familiar with the Hebrew. The name Septuagint was derived from the Latin word “septuaginta” which means seventy. It is sometimes referred to by the abbreviation LXX, the Latin equivalent for 70. Legend states that this number refers to the number of translators used.
You could say that the LXX is the “received text” or “Textus Receptus” of the OLD Testament where as the first is of the NEW Testament.

The 1611 KJV: In common with most other translations of the period, the New Testament was translated from the Textus Receptus (Received Text) series of the Greek texts. The Old Testament was translated from the Masoretic Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek Septuagint (LXX), except for 2 Esdras, which was translated from the Latin Vulgate.

The NEW King James version takes into consideration the Greek texts and others say like the Dead Sea Scrolls that were not available to the 1611 KJV translators. This is why I prefer this version as to the OLD King James. Also if you study Greek, you will find that there are over 300 errors in the KJV that the New King James tries to correct.
 
Rightlydivide said:
Where have you been? I am the original in this matter. Not another…
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Where have YOU been.
You’re not the original. You are simply another in a long line of people over the years who lost debates and instead turned their fury on my use of colors . . .
 
Rightlydivide said:
Please be more specific. I understand that your school is not regionally, nationally, or ATS or TRACS accredited and so I am interesting in how that is defined exactly. What does it mean to be part of the same educational network?
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Another tactic to take the attention off of your, shall we say, “argument on the downslide”?? What does it matter what seminary he went to? I don’t care if he ever made it out of kindergarten - it has nothing to do with the thread. Assaulting somebody’s Alma Mater and another’s use of fonts and colors is an act of true desperation.

Stick to the Original Topic of the thread . . . :rolleyes:
 
elvisman said:
Another tactic to take the attention off of your, shall we say, “argument on the downslide”?? What does it matter what seminary he went to? I don’t care if he ever made it out of kindergarten - it has nothing to do with the thread. Assaulting somebody’s Alma Mater and another’s use of fonts and colors is an act of true desperation.

Stick to the Original Topic of the thread . . . :rolleyes:
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Asking questions is not assaulting. It is…an area of interest that I have some background in…if that will suffice.
Like James White, Ken Hovind and others whose credentials cause an upturned eye, UA degrees have a way of doing that. Now, I know some reputable UA schools but I am really just trying to learn more.
As far as your colors, I do not wish to assault them. I apologize to them if they felt that way.
 
Rightlydivide said:
Please be more specific. I understand that your school is not regionally, nationally, or ATS or TRACS accredited and so I am interesting in how that is defined exactly. What does it mean to be part of the same educational network?
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Being part of an education network(Oxford) The Bodleian Library, Oxford; Princeton Theological Seminary Library and Friends of Princeton Libraries are open to us. We are also partnered with Kellogg College is one of the constituent colleges of the University of Oxford in England.
We are also a partner school with Chesapeake Bible College who also have ACI accreditation. The Oxford Education Network is an international accreditation. The Oxford Educational Network is a Network of Universities, Colleges and Schools that operate under a Royal Charter from Charles I of England. All Members of the Oxford Educational Network share values and attitudes toward Excellence in Education.

As to accreditation, neither Harvard divinity or Yale divinity need accreditation because of their age. The same with Oxford.

Why is this of a concern to you to start with and what bearing does it have on the topic at hand?🤷
 
Using people’s libraries has nothing to do with accreditation.
Father JB brought up the seminary training of himself and Padre JB. Padre JB brought up his theological training earlier as well.
So I asked.
Yale and Harvard are accredited by ATS. So I am not sure what that is about.
ACI is most often associated with diploma mills.
quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/dm3.html
As far as the partnering with Kellogg, I am checking on that. I am curious as to what that means.
Thanks
 
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