“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[Padrej]

You did answer the question. What makes you think that I did not see the answer? I then had a follow up based upon your answer. .

Your reply:

Now, using your analogy and personal experiences, yes. But your exegesis does not seem to cover that. My point being that what people often cite this verse is talking about and the context in which it is debated is not held up under a careful exegesis of the passage.

made me believe that you had not read the total answer.

 

[jericho777]

So you are saying that If I give my heart to the Lord, say a sinner’s prayer that I can still live the way I want to and be just as bad of a person as ever? This is the danger of OSAS.

Absolutely not! You assume that just words were said, empty words at that. But there was real power in them enough to change a life for eternity.

Here’s why. Before I was born again I was dead in my sin and trespasses against God. My sin nature ruled my life and I had no desire for God. After I was born again, God gave a new nature and with it a new desire to love and serve Him. My life is now in the Spirit not in the flesh. If I love God why would I want to sin and hurt my LORD who gave His life a ransom for me! Instead I live life by the grace He gives me to bring glory to His name. I have real joy and purpose now.

My position with Him is based on what he did for me, not what I could ever do for Him. Besides what could I ever do that would impress or earn the love of an infinite Holy God in my finite being?

 

[Rightlydivide]

It made my point. as Far as I am concerned this subject that been driven into the ground that OSAS is not compatible with scripture.

Perhaps. However, my response would have taken hours to prepare and it was not cited as not being your work. Its a courtesy thing. I would want to respond to someone who spent that amount of time preparing something. But a cut and paste…I would not.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Your reply:
made me believe that you had not read the total answer.

Did your exegesis cover soteriological differences between the groups I cited?
I will also point out that my statement in regards to careful exegesis is directed at you. However, not as you may or may not think. Your statement was the careful exegesis I was referencing however it specifically did not seem to deal with soteriology or those aspects. If I misread it, clarify if you wish.

 

[CARV]

I don’t believe that OSAS, properly understood, is incompatible with scripture. It is true that the Bible warns believers about commiting sins and falling away. But it also reinterates the necessity of grace for faith, repentance, good works etc. In other words, a person cannot have faith or repent of sins without God mercifully bestowing His grace upon them. This is also affirmed by the Fathers of the Church, particularly Augustine.

We also know from scripture that God has predestined His elect from all eternity. Where OSAS fits into all this, from a reformed perspective, is whether a person whom God has elected and predestined for heaven can fail to recieve salvation. The answer is no. It is God who has chosen that person and he or she will not be plucked out of His hand. These are Biblical teachings. Even Roman Catholics would have to admit that.

The only problem is how to practically apply these truths as a Christian. I certainly don’t have the attitude that “well I’m saved so I can do whatever I want”. I try to love God and neighbor. But I know that I will inevitably will be tempted and will fall to sin from time to time. OSAS to me is this… As an article of faith I believe in the mercy of God through faith in Christ. And if I am tempted, the Holy Ghost will preserve me from sinning or turn me to repentence if I do fall. He will not allow me to be plucked from His hand. All of my faith and good works were dependant on His grace. I have no reason to believe that my perserverance will be any different.

 

[benidict]

Absolutely not! You assume that just words were said, empty words at that. But there was real power in them enough to change a life for eternity.

Here’s why. Before I was born again I was dead in my sin and trespasses against God. My sin nature ruled my life and I had no desire for God. After I was born again, God gave a new nature and with it a new desire to love and serve Him. My life is now in the Spirit not in the flesh. If I love God why would I want to sin and hurt my LORD who gave His life a ransom for me! Instead I live life by the grace He gives me to bring glory to His name. I have real joy and purpose now.

My position with Him is based on what he did for me, not what I could ever do for Him. Besides what could I ever do that would impress or earn the love of an infinite Holy God in my finite being?

interesting. when the men of jerusalem asked what should we do to be saved. peter said to them. Repent every one of you.and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost…nope no sinners prayer here. just actions that display faith. repentance, baptism. and we read further down, that they abided in the apostles doctrine. peace

 

[jericho777]

interesting. when the men of jerusalem asked what should we do to be saved. peter said to them. Repent every one of you.and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost…nope no sinners prayer here. just actions that display faith. repentance, baptism. and we read further down, that they abided in the apostles doctrine. peace

Rom 10:8-11
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”d that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” Jesus our salvation is nearer than you think!

 

[benidict]

Rom 10:8-11
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”d that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” Jesus our salvation is nearer than you think!

fair enough. lets use the bible. please share with me one passage where a person prayed for their salvation. peace

 

[1beleevr]

I wasn’t directly referring to the Free Will of the Holy Spirit, but rather the absurdity of meeting Jesus “anywhere”. He has to call you:

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

And the place He call you to is into His Mystical Body - the Church via BAPTISM.

Onceagain, was the Ethiopian eunuch in the church when he met Jesus? People meet Jesus wherever they are; believe it or not(remember a guy named Saul of Tarsus?)

 

[1beleevr]

interesting. when the men of jerusalem asked what should we do to be saved. peter said to them. Repent every one of you.and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost…nope no sinners prayer here. just actions that display faith. repentance, baptism. and we read further down, that they abided in the apostles doctrine. peace

Repenting and confessing sins would be close to a sinner’s prayer!

 

[1beleevr]

I think that many Catholics criticize OSAS (aka the doctrine of the preservation of the saints) because they do not understand it. The idea is originally one of the five points of Calvinism. It cannot be grasped or properly understood without the other four points. I think that most protestants are poorly educated in this regard as well. It is a lot more complicated then “believe in Jesus and be eternally saved”. The reformed position goes much deeper than that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Five_points_of_Calvinism

“The central assertion of these canons is that God is able to save every person upon whom he has mercy and that his efforts are not frustrated by the unrighteousness or the inability of humans.”

I can’t believe that ANY Christian who has walked with Our Lord, could possibly believe that after being saved that they have a “Get Out Of Hell”, card, and can go on a sin spree, believing that they are “in”. But I would love to see someone(without being facetious) post, stating with all seriousness, that they have committed no sin since they got saved! Let’s face it, your flesh will never submit to the will of God, so you are going to be tempted, and you may fall away. Maybe you won’t fall completely away, but you will be tested. And then, h-m-m-m. there’s this thing called grace; you know, grace is everything for those who deserve nothing!

 

[1beleevr]

Sounds like you have a fixation which you can’t get past. I suppose as long as you are “okay” with completely disagreeing with what the overwhelming majority of all Christians across all time and space have believed, so be it.

Take care brother.

“Now, therefore, it has been my privilege to see you in the person of your God-inspired bishop, Damas; and in the persons of your worthy presbyters, Bassus and Apollonius; and my fellow-servant, the deacon, Zotion. What a delight is his company! For he is subject to the bishop as to the grace of God, and to the presbytery as to the law of Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Magnesians 2 [A.D. 110]).

This letter isn’t from the Bible, is it?

 

[1beleevr]

You couldn’t be more wrong. This is not found anywhere in Scripture (or History for that matter) - in fact, you are just making it up.

Interstingly enough, the word pope is not in scripture, but you have oneAnd nowhere in the New Testament, does it address the wearing of crucifixes, but many people do

 

[Padrej]

fair enough. lets use the bible. please share with me one passage where a person prayed for their salvation. peace

Excellent point!
I also notice that the OSAS crowd tends to forget the portions of scripture that speak to our faith being without works being dead. it is not just in James

 

[jericho777]

fair enough. lets use the bible. please share with me one passage where a person prayed for their salvation. peace

This is not as much a formula as it is a framework. Everyone who believes in one way or another follows this framework. It is about what happens in a persons’ heart. When we believe that Jesus is LORD and put our faith and trust in Him to be our Savior, He comes and abides in us. This is the beginning of our life for Him. We become new creatures in Him. Abraham, Paul, Rehab and the Ethiopian Eunuch are a couple who come to mind.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaldean Rite
You couldn’t be more wrong. This is not found anywhere in Scripture (or History for that matter) - in fact, you are just making it up.

Interstingly enough, the word pope is not in scripture, but you have oneAnd nowhere in the New Testament, does it address the wearing of crucifixes, but many people do

And interestingly enough,neither is the word Trinity & canon of scripture,but you believe them both. And no where in the NT, does it address wearing wedding rings or getting married at a church,but many do.

 

[Nicea325]

This letter isn’t from the Bible, is it?

And where does the Bible state everything must be in the bible? I did not know God was restricted to the Bible-only?

 

[benidict]

This is not as much a formula as it is a framework. Everyone who believes in one way or another follows this framework. It is about what happens in a persons’ heart. When we believe that Jesus is LORD and put our faith and trust in Him to be our Savior, He comes and abides in us. This is the beginning of our life for Him. We become new creatures in Him. Abraham, Paul, Rehab and the Ethiopian Eunuch are a couple who come to mind.

all these Godly people are a good cases in point. not one of them got down on their knees and prayed a sinners prayer. Abraham Believed God, and set out for the land God had showed him. Rahab Believed God, and hid the spys. Paul got knocked to his knees (not off his horse, thats not in there) recieved the message and obeyed. the eunich is a very good case in point. as learned as he was, he understood, that he could not undertand scripture in and of himself. it took an apostle to show him the light. then what happened? did they kneel down, and say a sinners prayer? no. the eunich believed and then out of obedience said look, here is water, why should i not be baptized. interestingly enough. baptism was being taught orally by the apostle. we didnt have a new testament yet. so we have a case also of a person recieving the truth, and submitting themselves to the apostles doctrine. in each case, the person believed and that my friend was followed by action. this is in perfect harmony with what James said. Faith without Works is dead. Peace

 

[benidict]

Excellent point!
I also notice that the OSAS crowd tends to forget the portions of scripture that speak to our faith being without works being dead. it is not just in James

thank you Father. yes, its common sense. i believe the chair that was given to me as a gift from someone will hold me, so i sit in it. belief follow by action is all throughout the bible. in that case it is i believe in the Gift God gave me, and now i act on that belief with Charity, and obedience to the Royal law. to love God above all else, and to love my neighbor as myself. and we are still able to submit ourselves to the apostles doctrine, and meet daily, just as they did. amazing isnt it? peace

 

[benidict]

Repenting and confessing sins would be close to a sinner’s prayer!

close but not. the sinners prayer was developed no sooner than 500 years ago. it has gone thru many evolutions since its founding. the history of this prayer is interesting to study. one of dwight l. moodys assosiates stated it needed to be changed, because of the high percentage of people falling away after having whole heartedly said it. its present form came about through the Rev Billy Graham. i for one am not going to trust my salvation to so flimsy a foundation as a prayer, whose biblical, and traditonal origins do not hold water. Peace