“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[jericho777]

believe it or not my friend, i was right where you are at 25 years ago. i said the same “sinners prayer” you did. i had the same “life changing” phenomenon happen. as stated many times, im a former baptist, who had strong calvinistic leanings. i also would have defended osas to the max. too long a story to relate here. but some things doctrinally never made any sense. and i always had this inexplicable pull to the Catholic Church. wish i would have acted on it sooner, it could have saved me years of searching and heartache. i agree with you. we become a new creation. but it is not just a one time prayer and thats it. it is not just a onetime turning away from sin getting baptized and thats it. it is a lifetime process. it states many times in scripture those that are BEING saved. etc. it is a lifetime process. for the thief on the Cross, it was a “deathbed” conversion. if however the thief had survived the cross, i believe he would have submitted to the apostles teaching, and he would have lived a life of charity and good works. you are right we become a new creation. but we are warned to put the old man to death. that is a process. not a one time thing. we are also given many warning about such throughout the new testament. shall i just then go by easy believism? or follow what the scriptures, tradition, and the Church say. because my friend, if i do not listen to the ones God has set above me “the magestirium” then i do not listen to Christ. Peace

For me it’s been 20+ years out of the CC and walking with the Lord. The more I read scripture the more I see Calvin-Augustine-Paul teaching. I prefer to go back to the original source the bible and get a pure unadulterated view of what God Himself says and thinks. Not that others can’t give insight they do. People reject the part of Augustine that is Calvinistic because it is contrary to the church teachings.

The thief did die and was totally saved pointing to the sufficiency of his prayer. How ever your implication that the thief would have submitted himself to the apostles teaching is an attempt to justify the CC and its teachings. The apostles never had an ever expanding array of doctrine. It was limited and fixed. Men have tied unbiblical burdens and requirements for salvation. Things that were necessary for salvation in the first century are different than things required for salvation today. It’s a different gospel! Where is the Sabbath rest promised by Jesus where we cease from our labour to be saved? It’s not in the works of the flesh trying to be saved or the doctrines of men binding their consciences.

Salvation is a lifelong journey we were saved we are saved we will be saved. This speaks to Christ being the author and finisher of our faith. Remember He is the one doing the saving not us. We are saved unto good works Eph 2:10 not by them. That’s why I hold to OSAS

You assume OSAS is somehow a license to keep on living the way we were and that’s simply not true. I don’t know how better to explain it.

Jesus has delivered a simple unburdened faith to us let’s keep it that way.

 

[jerry_kelso]

To everyone, this is a very divisive subject with much wrong thinking and misunderstanding of all the scriptures and how to reconcile all of them together.
The truth is that it only took one sin to damn the whole human race. This harmonizes with Ezekiel 18 that says the soul that sinneth shall die. It also reconciles with Galatians 5 that says walk in the Spirit you won’t fulfill the things of the flesh.
These 3 scriptures show the truth of the matter; Adam was created perfect; the Ezekial passage talks to jews and gentiles and the Galatians passage was talking to new testament believers. So losing your salvation is a possibility. This being true means all the other scriptures to prove otherwise are incorrect and wrenched out of context. This does not mean that we cannot be confident, assured and secure. I must go for now but I’ll return to post again on other related issues. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

 

[jericho777]

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits and also people will know that you are His disciples IF you love one another. The fruits (works) and love are natural results of the inward Christ you have living in you. Just saying you have faith is not enough; see the first epistle of John. He says “if we say” many times when it comes to the actions of a person. So a sinner’s prayer is no more going to save you if there is no inward change because it would only be lip service; something God is firmly against.

Is Jesus not the vine and the Father the vinedresser? All those who abide in Christ will bear good fruit. Did He not prepare good works for us to do ahead of time?

 

[jericho777]

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits and also people will know that you are His disciples IF you love one another. The fruits (works) and love are natural results of the inward Christ you have living in you. Just saying you have faith is not enough; see the first epistle of John. He says “if we say” many times when it comes to the actions of a person. So a sinner’s prayer is no more going to save you if there is no inward change because it would only be lip service; something God is firmly against.

I suppose that’s just like those who receive the sacraments and go to mass every week also. It’s really about a change of heart isn’t it.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi! I am repeating excerpts from my post to Jimmy an hour back:
Salvation is not an event but a continuing process which concludes when a soul finally attains eternal union with God.

The journey is full of trials and tribulations and marked by numerous falls. A saved sinner may fall many times, but will rise again each time as a stronger person.

The ultimate state may not be realised during the soul’s sojourn on earth but may have to wait for total cleansing in purgatory.

It is better to suffer on earth than in purgatory

The process can be compared to refining silver (look up clarion-call.org/extras/malachi.htm)

John 10:27-29 only confirms OSAS “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”

Or consider the case of Paul who hd refused to believe in Jesus and even tormented christians. Did not Jesus create for him an extrordinary chance to convert?

*What about Jonah the prophet who disobeyed God. He was swallowed by a whale and ultimately had to repent and obey. *

Man may break faith but God never breaks faith.

St. Louis of Granada wrote in his famous book “The Sinner’s Guide”:To all the benefits which we have just enumerated we must add that of election, or predestination, which belongs to those whom God has chosen from all eternity to be partakers of His glory
.

*Once saved we have the choice to delay our final destination and extend our misery even unto the first hell (purgatory); but it cannot be denied *

Excellent post!
*
"You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. "
Matthew 10:22
**

 

[Padrej]

Is Jesus not the vine and the Father the vinedresser? All those who abide in Christ will bear good fruit. Did He not prepare good works for us to do ahead of time?

The problem is that many do not do the good works prepared for them and thus produce bad fruit. Remember each of us has free will and can choose to do good or be a nasty person. Many who are nasty will come to the church and claim to be Christian BUT to see them ANY OTHER day their actions and words do not belay this. This is why I say that there is a danger in OSAS because people put their trust in the one time event and never make a change.

The key words that you are citing is “abide” which would mean to do all the things Christ commands.

 

[Padrej]

I suppose that’s just like those who receive the sacraments and go to mass every week also. It’s really about a change of heart isn’t it.

Now this could take the thread in another direction. What does the Bible say about receiving the communion in an unworthy manner??? You don’t bring the old self to the rail, you bring a broken and contrite heart that wants to change.

 

[jericho777]

The problem is that many do not do the good works prepared for them and thus produce bad fruit. Remember each of us has free will and can choose to do good or be a nasty person. Many who are nasty will come to the church and claim to be Christian BUT to see them ANY OTHER day their actions and words do not belay this. This is why I say that there is a danger in OSAS because people put their trust in the one time event and never make a change.

The key words that you are citing is “abide” which would mean to do all the things Christ commands.

An unsaved person cannot please God no matter how many good works they do because they are in the flesh and separated from Him. They go around thinking they are going to heaven based on their good works. That’s false Isaiah says “your works are filthy rags unto the LORD“. They even do religious things thinking they are impressing God. They have a form of Godliness but deny the power there of. 2 Tim 3:5 How wrong they are.

OSAS is about Christ coming into the believer and abiding there. Changing their heart and leading them in the path of righteousness. Proverbs 24:16for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity. We will fall completely as believers but the Lord will raise us up because He is the one doing the saving. We can rest in the assurance of His promise and live lives of faith and hope in Him.

 

[1beleevr]

Now this could take the thread in another direction. What does the Bible say about receiving the communion in an unworthy manner??? You don’t bring the old self to the rail, you bring a broken and contrite heart that wants to change.

In many ways, that old self, is broken, doubtful and weary! We resuscitate the old man/woman, because sometimes it’s easier to slip back into our old ways than to obey Jesus! I know many a congregant who comes to communion, broken, hurting, repentant, and humbled by life! Taking it unworthily, would be if your sitting there with unconfessed sin, right?

 

[Padrej]

An unsaved person cannot please God no matter how many good works they do because they are in the flesh and separated from Him. They go around thinking they are going to heaven based on their good works. That’s false Isaiah says “your works are filthy rags unto the LORD“. They even do religious things thinking they are impressing God. They have a form of Godliness but deny the power there of. 2 Tim 3:5 How wrong they are.

OSAS is about Christ coming into the believer and abiding there. Changing their heart and leading them in the path of righteousness. Proverbs 24:16for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity. We will fall completely as believers but the Lord will raise us up because He is the one doing the saving. We can rest in the assurance of His promise and live lives of faith and hope in Him.

I want to respond to the highlighted portion.
I agree with you this is how it SHOULD be, but sadly this is not how it is interpreted. the OSAS crowd likes to say if you say the sinners prayer this gives you the eternal assurance and you do not have to change. Sadly they get the person to the altar and say “oh they are saved” and there is NO follow up, NO education in the Bible, just get them saved. That is not what OSAS is all about.

 

[1beleevr]

An unsaved person cannot please God no matter how many good works they do because they are in the flesh and separated from Him. They go around thinking they are going to heaven based on their good works. That’s false Isaiah says “your works are filthy rags unto the LORD“. They even do religious things thinking they are impressing God. They have a form of Godliness but deny the power there of. 2 Tim 3:5 How wrong they are.

OSAS is about Christ coming into the believer and abiding there. Changing their heart and leading them in the path of righteousness. Proverbs 24:16for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity. We will fall completely as believers but the Lord will raise us up because He is the one doing the saving. We can rest in the assurance of His promise and live lives of faith and hope in Him.

Good post, Jericho! It is important to remember that it is not because of what we do that we are saved, it is because of what He did at Calvary!

 

[1beleevr]

Hi! I am repeating excerpts from my post to Jimmy an hour back:
*Salvation is not an event but a continuing process which concludes when a soul finally attains eternal union with God.

The journey is full of trials and tribulations and marked by numerous falls. A saved sinner may fall many times, but will rise again each time as a stronger person.

The ultimate state may not be realised during the soul’s sojourn on earth but may have to wait for total cleansing in purgatory.

It is better to suffer on earth than in purgatory

The process can be compared to refining silver (look up clarion-call.org/extras/malachi.htm*)

John 10:27-29 only confirms OSAS “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”

Or consider the case of Paul who hd refused to believe in Jesus and even tormented christians. Did not Jesus create for him an extrordinary chance to convert?

What about Jonah the prophet who disobeyed God. He was swallowed by a whale and ultimately had to repent and obey.

Man may break faith but God never breaks faith.

St. Louis of Granada wrote in his famous book “The Sinner’s Guide”:To all the benefits which we have just enumerated we must add that of election, or predestination, which belongs to those whom God has chosen from all eternity to be partakers of His glory
.

Once saved we have the choice to delay our final destination and extend our misery even unto the first hell (purgatory); but it cannot be denied

ZZZZZZZZZZ! Yesterday’s news! Thanks for the effort though!

 

[1beleevr]

The problem is that many do not do the good works prepared for them and thus produce bad fruit. Remember each of us has free will and can choose to do good or be a nasty person. Many who are nasty will come to the church and claim to be Christian BUT to see them ANY OTHER day their actions and words do not belay this. This is why I say that there is a danger in OSAS because people put their trust in the one time event and never make a change.

The key words that you are citing is “abide” which would mean to do all the things Christ commands.

“For even I, the Son of Man, came not to be served, but to srve.” Mark 10:45. Sad but true; many Christians today only give lip service to doing good works I have actually seen many non-believers involved in Kingdom works, while many Christians say,“I go to church every week; what more do you want?” Well, we need to pray about it, and listen to God’s voice directing us to those good works! Without a complete change of heart, there can be no salvation!

 

[jericho777]

I want to respond to the highlighted portion.
I agree with you this is how it SHOULD be, but sadly this is not how it is interpreted. the OSAS crowd likes to say if you say the sinners prayer this gives you the eternal assurance and you do not have to change. Sadly they get the person to the altar and say “oh they are saved” and there is NO follow up, NO education in the Bible, just get them saved. That is not what OSAS is all about.

If your objection to OSAS is that some people aren’t doing it right I don’t see how that denigrates the validity of the true OSAS. Your analogy is like saying the bible is not valid because some people miss use it. We both know that’s utter nonsense.

We must exercise due diligence with those professing faith in Christ to give them the tools to live victoriously. OSAS is just as valid today as it was with the Ethiopian eunuch and the thief on the cross.

 

[CARV]

OSAS is not about faith vs works. I think both sides agree that one must have faith and good works if one is going to heaven. The issue with OSAS is to recognize that before you chose to have faith in God, repent, and do good works, God chose you and sent you His grace to make those choices. I’ll say it again …GOD CHOSE YOU. And because He has chosen you he will not allow you to be lost. Neither the devil nor human weakness will frustrate His plan to save His elect.

Nobody knows for certain that they have been predestined from all eternity to be saved. Some born again believers or orthodox catholics may lose there faith; they were never predestined or saved or whatever. But a Christian should have faith that God loves them and will always send grace to overcome sin or bring repentence.

Again it is not about certainty so you can live how you please. I am not any more certain about my destiny than a Roman Catholic is about his Pope being infallible. But as he has faith that God will not allow His Pope to teach error, I have faith that God will always turn my heart to repentence. I hope I’m right.

 

[benidict]

If your objection to OSAS is that some people aren’t doing it right I don’t see how that denigrates the validity of the true OSAS. Your analogy is like saying the bible is not valid because some people miss use it. We both know that’s utter nonsense.

We must exercise due diligence with those professing faith in Christ to give them the tools to live victoriously. OSAS is just as valid today as it was with the Ethiopian eunuch and the thief on the cross.

interesting how you put this my friend. “tools” would indicate a work to be done. correct? to live victoriously takes some kind of effort or will. yes? Peace

 

[benidict]

OSAS is not about faith vs works. I think both sides agree that one must have faith and good works if one is going to heaven. The issue with OSAS is to recognize that before you chose to have faith in God, repent, and do good works, God chose you and sent you His grace to make those choices. I’ll say it again …GOD CHOSE YOU. And because He has chosen you he will not allow you to be lost. Neither the devil nor human weakness will frustrate His plan to save His elect.

Nobody knows for certain that they have been predestined from all eternity to be saved. Some born again believers or orthodox catholics may lose there faith; they were never predestined or saved or whatever. But a Christian should have faith that God loves them and will always send grace to overcome sin or bring repentence.

Again it is not about certainty so you can live how you please. I am not any more certain about my destiny than a Roman Catholic is about his Pope being infallible. But as he has faith that God will not allow His Pope to teach error, I have faith that God will always turn my heart to repentence. I hope I’m right.

very well put, and honest. thank you my friend. peace

 

[Padrej]

“For even I, the Son of Man, came not to be served, but to srve.” Mark 10:45. Sad but true; many Christians today only give lip service to doing good works I have actually seen many non-believers involved in Kingdom works, while many Christians say,“I go to church every week; what more do you want?” Well, we need to pray about it, and listen to God’s voice directing us to those good works! Without a complete change of heart, there can be no salvation!

AMEN!!!

 

[Padrej]

OSAS is not about faith vs works. I think both sides agree that one must have faith and good works if one is going to heaven. The issue with OSAS is to recognize that before you chose to have faith in God, repent, and do good works, God chose you and sent you His grace to make those choices. I’ll say it again …GOD CHOSE YOU. And because He has chosen you he will not allow you to be lost. Neither the devil nor human weakness will frustrate His plan to save His elect.

Nobody knows for certain that they have been predestined from all eternity to be saved. Some born again believers or orthodox catholics may lose there faith; they were never predestined or saved or whatever. But a Christian should have faith that God loves them and will always send grace to overcome sin or bring repentence.

Again it is not about certainty so you can live how you please. I am not any more certain about my destiny than a Roman Catholic is about his Pope being infallible. But as he has faith that God will not allow His Pope to teach error, I have faith that God will always turn my heart to repentence. I hope I’m right.

Very well stated, the Bible certainly speaks that we have HOPE.

 

[Pitcharan]

OSAS is not about faith vs works. I think both sides agree that one must have faith and good works if one is going to heaven. The issue with OSAS is to recognize that before you chose to have faith in God, repent, and do good works, God chose you and sent you His grace to make those choices. I’ll say it again …GOD CHOSE YOU. And because He has chosen you he will not allow you to be lost. Neither the devil nor human weakness will frustrate His plan to save His elect.

Nobody knows for certain that they have been predestined from all eternity to be saved. Some born again believers or orthodox catholics may lose there faith; they were never predestined or saved or whatever. But a Christian should have faith that God loves them and will always send grace to overcome sin or bring repentence.

Again it is not about certainty so you can live how you please. I am not any more certain about my destiny than a Roman Catholic is about his Pope being infallible. But as he has faith that God will not allow His Pope to teach error, I have faith that God will always turn my heart to repentence. I hope I’m right.

I concur cent percent CARV. Now it all boils down to building faith. If you start a new thread on “How to build Faith” I’ve got lots to share. If not, I’ll wait a little and start the thread myself.

regards
Pitcharan