“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[CARV]

God gives us the means to repent with his gift of grace. However - he will not "turn you to repentance". That is something YOU must do with the grace he has given you.

That’s the one major flaw in the OSAS myth. God doesn’t coerce to force us to do anything. It is our cooperation with his grace that allows us to do his will.
THAT is why we do not have a guaranteed assurance of salvation - we have a moral certitude of salvation IF we endure in faith to the end.

Even Paul said,"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified****. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).

That ties OSAS to another of Calvin’s points…the doctrine of irresistible grace. The idea is that when God mercifully preordains a soul to glory, He will infallibly complete the work of salvation in that soul. I don’t look at it as coercion. God is the ultimate good. No soul, however wicked he be, could resist God’s goodness if He sends sufficient grace to said soul. God is not that impotent. If God sends His grace for a sinner to repent, he will willingly surrender to God because that sinner will recognize God’s goodness.

It’s hard to see it any other way. If God can’t save those whom he has preordained, then He is not much of a God, is He? It begs the question whether God actually wants every human being to be saved which leads to another of Calvin’s points…limited atonement. Short answer …no. And that is the single most disturbing of Calvin’s five points. But people (Catholics and protestants) are very ignorant on how OSAS is interlocked with the other 4 points.

It is God who sends His grace to His elect. It is He who gives them faith. He who brings them to repentance. Who inspires and directs their good works. And who will ultimately bring them to glory. He does this because He mercifully loves them. It is not an abusive and coercive relationship. It really is rather humbling to imagine that a person can be so undeserving of such unconditional love yet still receive it. That is what the true fruit of OSAS is supposed to be. Humility not license.

 

[CARV]

Here are a few places in Scripture that speak to true believers who fell away because they stopped cooperating with God’s grace:

John 15:6
Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them (angels) and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.

Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

---

Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

---

2 Peter 2:20-21****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

You are assuming that those souls who fell were among God’s pre-ordained elect. I do not think so.

John 10:27-29 (New International Version)

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Those who are elect will infallibly be saved by God. Those who fall away are the tares among the wheat. They were never saved.

 

[noclevername]

Also - there is no such thing as the* “Protestant Religion”.* There are thousands of splintered sects of Protestantism and many of them disagree as to exactly what OSAS means. You don’t speak for all of them.

The same thing can be said about the Catholic “religion”. You know that I was referring to a general Protestant. Most agree about recieving Christ into their hearts in order to be saved. They might have different ideas on Baptism, communion, etc But they all follow the same Bible and have the same general beliefs. Get off your high horse.

 

[Nicea325]

You are assuming that those souls who fell were among God’s pre-ordained elect. I do not think so.

John 10:27-29 (New International Version)

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Those who are elect will infallibly be saved by God. Those who fall away are the tares among the wheat. They were never saved.

So you believe in OSAS?

 

[benidict]

That ties OSAS to another of Calvin’s points…the doctrine of irresistible grace. The idea is that when God mercifully preordains a soul to glory, He will infallibly complete the work of salvation in that soul. I don’t look at it as coercion. God is the ultimate good. No soul, however wicked he be, could resist God’s goodness if He sends sufficient grace to said soul. God is not that impotent. If God sends His grace for a sinner to repent, he will willingly surrender to God because that sinner will recognize God’s goodness.

It’s hard to see it any other way. If God can’t save those whom he has preordained, then He is not much of a God, is He? It begs the question whether God actually wants every human being to be saved which leads to another of Calvin’s points…limited atonement. Short answer …no. And that is the single most disturbing of Calvin’s five points. But people (Catholics and protestants) are very ignorant on how OSAS is interlocked with the other 4 points.

It is God who sends His grace to His elect. It is He who gives them faith. He who brings them to repentance. Who inspires and directs their good works. And who will ultimately bring them to glory. He does this because He mercifully loves them. It is not an abusive and coercive relationship. It really is rather humbling to imagine that a person can be so undeserving of such unconditional love yet still receive it. That is what the true fruit of OSAS is supposed to be. Humility not license.

ah yes tulip. needless to say my friend i no longer ascribe to this of course. and neither do most protestants. just a couple points, and there is neither time on my side at this point to delve to deep into this, but it is written, that God wills that ALL men would come to him. not just a selected few. and it is also written, do not grieve the Holy Spirit, wherin you were sealed for the day of redemption. a person can resist the Holy Spirit. jacobus arminius certainly saw some very serious flaws with Calvins theology. he and his followers paid dearly for disagreeing with Calvinism. these are just paraphrase on my part. my bible is packed. hopefully, i dont get it confiscated where im going. will pick this up with you more in depth, at a later date. Peace to you and yours. i do love how knowlegeable you are. do you have a teaching career?

 

[CARV]

So you believe in OSAS?

I was once adamantly opposed to it and Calvin’s other points. But I now concede that I cannot avoid believing them, no matter how hard I try. I reluctantly accept them.

 

[noclevername]

as Catholics, we strive to recieve Christ daily. and can you please show me a verse about praying for our salvation, by asking Jesus into our hearts?

John 3:16 (New International Version) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

also how can you have a resonsibility to live right, since it requires no effort or work on your part? since all is of God, how do you have any responsibility? im not trying to get you riled up. as a former believer in osas, id really like to understand, how people come to this conclusion from the bible, when the whole bible, is taken into account. thank you in advance. Peace

No one ever said that. Did you read my post? After you accept Jesus into your heart, it is your responsibility to do what is right and your responsibility to learn what is right. I said that. I also said that if you sin, you have to specifically ask for forgiveness for each and every sin. A lot of OSAS believers have it wrong. You aren’t saved and that’s it. You have to strive to be a Christian. It’s not easy.

 

[Nicea325]

The same thing can be said about the Catholic “religion”. You know that I was referring to a general Protestant. Most agree about recieving Christ into their hearts in order to be saved. They might have different ideas on Baptism, communion, etc But they all follow the same Bible and have the same general beliefs. Get off your high horse.

Elaborate on how the same thing can be said about the Catholic 'religion?" You mean to tell me there exists ‘denominations’ within the Catholic Church? Care to provide an example?

Okay that is where I find your position a bit contradictory. If you all follow the same Bible,then how can the Holy Spirit be providing different ideas on: baptism,communion,etc?

Either the HS teaches ONE truth or many versions of the Truth?

 

[CARV]

do you have a teaching career?

No. Embarrassingly low brow

 

[Nicea325]

I was once adamantly opposed to it and Calvin’s other points. But I now concede that I cannot avoid believing them, no matter how hard I try. I reluctantly accept them.

Wow! That is your choice. I reject it with all my heart and soul. I do not buy it!

 

[benidict]

John 3:16 (New International Version) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

No one ever said that. Did you read my post? After you accept Jesus into your heart, it is your responsibility to do what is right and your responsibility to learn what is right. I said that. I also said that if you sin, you have to specifically ask for forgiveness for each and every sin. A lot of OSAS believers have it wrong. You aren’t saved and that’s it. You have to strive to be a Christian. It’s not easy.

wow! in that case we may just be debating symantics. and i will agree with you. alot of osas believers have it wrong. and what you have just stated flys in the face of what alot of them teach. cudos to you. so you also are seeking to fullfill the admonition of Paul? to work out your salvation with fear and trembling? good deal. it just seems you would be more at home in the arminian camp. this is closer to what they teach. Peace

 

[benidict]

No. Embarrassingly low brow

could have fooled me. your very good at making your point understood. even if i may or may not agree with you, at least it is very easy to see where you are coming from. maybe you should look into a job teaching. my kids would have got straight A’s if you had been instructing them.Peace

 

[CARV]

Wow! That is your choice. I reject it with all my heart and soul. I do not buy it!

I doubt that any of us choose to believe anything. Choice has little to do with it. I cannot choose to believe that the sky is green or that 2+2=5. Calvinism is actually not as flowery as OSAS has become in our day in age. I would rather choose to believe that I have control over whether or not I am saved. Be that as it may, I am compelled to believe Calvin’s points from my reading of the Bible in the same way you are compelled to believe the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent from your reading of scripture. Could you really just stop believing Catholicism right now if you chose to do so? I think not.

 

[pismopal]

I love Pismo, my daughter lives in Grover Beach, and I was raised in Santa Maria! Anyway, after 43 years of walking with Christ(not always this close, though) I have no desire to convert to catholicism! I have been curious about the religion, because most catholics I have met, are arrogant, rude and divisive. Since being on the forum, I have seen that this not representative of the majority of them! Besides, I would be a “cafeteria catholic,” if I did convert!

In the interest of full disclosure we moved from Pismo to Arroyo Grande but Arroyo Grande pal loses something in translation. I know some rude arrogant and divisive people who call themselves Catholic also…Nancy Pelosi…and Joe Biden to name a couple. You said you had “no desire to convert to Catholicism”. Well I did not either…I read the Catechism out of a desire to know what it was about…not with any determination to convert. I had an open mind and that was all that was necessary for me. If you like cafeteria theology maybe you are ok where you are but your honest search will always be welcome

 

[CARV]

could have fooled me. your very good at making your point understood. even if i may or may not agree with you, at least it is very easy to see where you are coming from. maybe you should look into a job teaching. my kids would have got straight A’s if you had been instructing them.Peace

You flatter me.

 

[elvisman]

That ties OSAS to another of Calvin’s points…the doctrine of irresistible grace. The idea is that when God mercifully preordains a soul to glory, He will infallibly complete the work of salvation in that soul. I don’t look at it as coercion. God is the ultimate good. No soul, however wicked he be, could resist God’s goodness if He sends sufficient grace to said soul. God is not that impotent. If God sends His grace for a sinner to repent, he will willingly surrender to God because that sinner will recognize God’s goodness.

It’s hard to see it any other way. If God can’t save those whom he has preordained, then He is not much of a God, is He? It begs the question whether God actually wants every human being to be saved which leads to another of Calvin’s points…limited atonement. Short answer …no. And that is the single most disturbing of Calvin’s five points. But people (Catholics and protestants) are very ignorant on how OSAS is interlocked with the other 4 points.

It is God who sends His grace to His elect. It is He who gives them faith. He who brings them to repentance. Who inspires and directs their good works. And who will ultimately bring them to glory. He does this because He mercifully loves them. It is not an abusive and coercive relationship. It really is rather humbling to imagine that a person can be so undeserving of such unconditional love yet still receive it. That is what the true fruit of OSAS is supposed to be. Humility not license.

Calvin’s invention of irresistable grace (and that is precisely what it is - an invention of man) does not stand up to the scrutiny of Scripture.

**For irresistable grace to exist, the must be the other, more sinister side to God - the side that preordains others for hell. In fact, Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many" (Matt. 7:13). By this verse, it would be fair to say that Jesus is telling us that a majority of people will go to hell. Using Calvin’s flawed logic - God becomes a monster who sends people to hell and never gives them a choice.

---

**God has *already ***redeemed everybody in the history of the world, but he has not saved them without their cooperation with grace. Redemption is the price Christ paid on the cross for us. Salvation comes when we cooperate with his grace and endure to the end (**Romans 11:22, ****Hebrews 10:26-27, ****2 Peter 2:20-21, ****Matt. 7:21, ****John 15:1-9, Matt. 24:13). Regardless of your claims, Calvinism *does ***require coercion because it denies free will.

OSAS is an extremely arrogant position and one that doesn’t understand the meaning of true sonship in God.

 

[benidict]

You flatter me.

not at all my friend just stating the obvious. youd better be careful. Padrej may draft you!

 

[CARV]

Calvin’s invention of irresistable grace (and that is precisely what it is - an invention of man) does not stand up to the scrutiny of Scripture.

**For irresistable grace to exist, the must be the other, more *sinister ***side to God - the side that preordains others for hell. In fact, Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many" (Matt. 7:13). By this verse, it would be fair to say that Jesus is telling us that a majority of people will go to hell. Using Calvin’s flawed logic - God becomes a monster who sends people to hell and never gives them a choice.

---

**God has *already ***redeemed everybody in the history of the world, but he has not saved them without their cooperation with grace. Redemption is the price Christ paid on the cross for us. Salvation comes when we cooperate with his grace and endure to the end (**Romans 11:22, ****Hebrews 10:26-27, ****2 Peter 2:20-21, ****Matt. 7:21, ****John 15:1-9, Matt. 24:13). Regardless of your claims, Calvinism *does ***require coercion because it denies free will.

**OSAS is an extremely arrogant **position and one that doesn’t understand the meaning of true sonship in God.

Truth is that the Bible describes God as doing many things that would make you label Him a monster. He kills men, women and children with flood water, sends angels to kill the first-born children of Egypt, and orders the Isrealites to slaughter men women and children with the sword. So it is not hard to imagine that God loves some and not others. Paul seems to agree.

Romans 9:10

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Paul’s last paragraph seems directly aimed at you and your disposition.

 

[Araninski]

To anyone that agrees with the “Once saved always saved”.

Beware…

1 Corinthians 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

I understand why some Christians believe this ( thanks God few Christians believe this now).

Matthew 22:14
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

How do you know you are a chosen?, How can you know you are only an invited?

Right now we are invited (and we accept it) , however, when we accept it and are already saved , people think they can’t lose it and may start sinning , and later this sinning leads them away from Christ , rejecting the Gift of Salvation.

Matthew 24:13
“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”

Endure to the end and you will be saved, therefore being a chosen of God. You endure to the end, by living like Christ lived, any other path that isn’t this one leads astray. By sinning you have an evidence that you are getting astray from the path, so you ask for repentance, to be again on the path. You pray to stay on the way. If you believe in OSAS one day you may find a BIG WALL of China (this has nothing to do with the Chinese!, just an example) in your way that won’t let you pass and you are going to take another way, leading to perdition. There are some former OSAS believers that get lost and after years of being lost and confused, thanks God, they find their way back, acknowledging that OSAS isn’t true, but some never get back.

Don’t take that chance

God bless

 

[benidict]

To anyone that agrees with the “Once saved always saved”.

Beware…

1 Corinthians 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

I understand why some Christians believe this ( thanks God few Christians believe this now).

Matthew 22:14
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

How do you know you are a chosen?, How can you know you are only an invited?

Right now we are invited (and we accept it) , however, when we accept it and are already saved , people think they can’t lose it and may start sinning , and later this sinning leads them away from Christ , rejecting the Gift of Salvation.

Matthew 24:13
“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”

Endure to the end and you will be saved, therefore being a chosen of God. You endure to the end, by living like Christ lived, any other path that isn’t this one leads astray. By sinning you have an evidence that you are getting astray from the path, so you ask for repentance, to be again on the path. You pray to stay on the way. If you believe in OSAS one day you may find a BIG WALL of China (this has nothing to do with the Chinese!, just an example) in your way that won’t let you pass and you are going to take another way, leading to perdition. There are some former OSAS believers that get lost and after years of being lost and confused, thanks God, they find their way back, acknowledging that OSAS isn’t true, but some never get back.

Don’t take that chance

God bless

well put. Grace and Peace to you.