“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[elvisman]

OSAS is not about faith vs works. I think both sides agree that one must have faith and good works if one is going to heaven. The issue with OSAS is to recognize that before you chose to have faith in God, repent, and do good works, God chose you and sent you His grace to make those choices. I’ll say it again …GOD CHOSE YOU. And because He has chosen you he will not allow you to be lost. Neither the devil nor human weakness will frustrate His plan to save His elect.

Nobody knows for certain that they have been predestined from all eternity to be saved. Some born again believers or orthodox catholics may lose there faith; they were never predestined or saved or whatever. But a Christian should have faith that God loves them and will always send grace to overcome sin or bring repentence.

Again it is not about certainty so you can live how you please. I am not any more certain about my destiny than a Roman Catholic is about his Pope being infallible. But as he has faith that God will not allow His Pope to teach error, I have faith that God will always turn my heart to repentence. I hope I’m right.

God gives us the means to repent with his gift of grace. However - he will not "turn you to repentance". That is something YOU must do with the grace he has given you.

That’s the one major flaw in the OSAS myth. God doesn’t coerce to force us to do anything. It is our cooperation with his grace that allows us to do his will.
THAT is why we do not have a guaranteed assurance of salvation - we have a moral certitude of salvation IF we endure in faith to the end.

Even Paul said,"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified**. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4).
**

 

[noclevername]

Most of you have it wrong about Protestants.

Once saved always saved doesn’t mean what you think it does. When a person is saved, they have asked Jesus Christ into their heart as the personal saviour. Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins so you have to ask accept Him into your heart and God forgives all of your sins. This means all of your sins up until that moment are forgiven and now your slate has essentially been washed clean. You don’t have to list all of your sins one by one because up until this point you didn’t realize that a lot of the stuff you were doing was wrong.

However, what that means is that now you have to ask for forgiveness when you do sin and now you have to ask for forgivenss for each individual sin. It’s because at this point you know what you are doing is sinning and since you ahve accepted Jesus into your heart you have a responsibility to live your life right.

So, you can’t be saved and then continue to sin and still be OK. It doesn’t work that way. You have to ask for forgiveness. It’s essentially the same as going to confession and then the priest giving you instructions for repentance. Protestants have to pray to God and ask for forgiveness. Protestants dont’ have to go through the priest.

And there are some unforgivable sins in the Protestant religion too.

 

[jerry_kelso]

Hi! I am repeating excerpts from my post to Jimmy an hour back:
*Salvation is not an event but a continuing process which concludes when a soul finally attains eternal union with God.

The journey is full of trials and tribulations and marked by numerous falls. A saved sinner may fall many times, but will rise again each time as a stronger person.

The ultimate state may not be realised during the soul’s sojourn on earth but may have to wait for total cleansing in purgatory.

It is better to suffer on earth than in purgatory

The process can be compared to refining silver (look up clarion-call.org/extras/malachi.htm*)

John 10:27-29 only confirms OSAS “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”

Or consider the case of Paul who hd refused to believe in Jesus and even tormented christians. Did not Jesus create for him an extrordinary chance to convert?

What about Jonah the prophet who disobeyed God. He was swallowed by a whale and ultimately had to repent and obey.

Man may break faith but God never breaks faith.

St. Louis of Granada wrote in his famous book “The Sinner’s Guide”:To all the benefits which we have just enumerated we must add that of election, or predestination, which belongs to those whom God has chosen from all eternity to be partakers of His glory
.

Once saved we have the choice to delay our final destination and extend our misery even unto the first hell (purgatory); but it cannot be denied

To Pitcharan, jimmy B. And anyone else that believes in OSAS;
The question is; is eternal security unconditional or conditional?

1. Anyone’s position can be right persay, standing by itself. If it doesn’ line up with all the scriptures on the subject it is just one’s opinion, something that may sound logical , fair, or just feel good to you. It could also be a tradition that’s been handed down whether by your church or relatives or friends. If your position is wrong you can give scripture analysis all your life that appears to be right and never come to the truth. This usually creates tunnel vision to see the truth.
   2, There is usually a little bit of truth in most doctrines . There is nothing wrong with a calvinst wanting God’s sovereignty to stand out for he is surely all powerfull, almighty, full of grace and will always take care of his children. However, though God’s sovereignty will stand either way; it becomes one-sided and the other side of the coin is not worthy to be addressed or has some other meaning or becomes obsolete altogether. God’s sovereignty is good but he does not let it override his character or his will in this matter.
   3.Going back to point one; Conditions or No Conditions. If you can find one scripture that shows a condition on OSAS then all the other scriptures context for it are not correct. As I said in my 1st post Galatians 5:16:21 is such a scripture. Those walking in the spirit won’t fulfill the things of the flesh. This speaks to christians for sinners do no not walk in the spirit. The flesh wars against the spirit is in line with the context of the fight to steal, kill, and destroy the christian’s life. If the christian is not being led by the spirit he is under the law which produces the works of the flesh which those who do them will not enter the kingdom of God. This agrees with Galatians 6:7-8: of sowing and 6:7-8 if you sow to the flesh you’ll reap corruption; but to the spirit you’llreap life everlasting. These are plain scriptures to prove that it is possible for a christian to lose their salvation this means all other scriptures used contrary has to have a condition.
2. I will use John 10:27-29 since this is the one you gave as proof for your position.
   a). The chapter is talking about the thief trying to enter in and kill the sheep. We know there is the shepherd who protects the sheep.
   B). This relationship is talking directly to the Jews who were under the law and backslidden. Obviously, some following after God would know his voice and the leaders definitely the ones who would not hear his voice. They didn’t understand Jesus so he tried again by contrasting the Good shepherd and his care and willing to die for them and his desire to give then eternal life with the wolf that scatters the sheep and then Jesus prophesies about other sheep in the fold that he needs to bring in as one fold by way of him giving his life. This caused division among the Jews. Jesus was asked the question if you’re the Chriist just give us a plain answer, Jeus didn’t give them a simple yes or no. The reason is he knew their motive and to be truthful there are some people I’ve talked to that do the same thing and only want to try to pigeon the word of God. Jesus told them you don’t believe my works that I do in my father’s name which bear witnes of me. The leaders were not of the fold so they would not hear his voice.
   c). No man can pluck you out of the hand of the father’s hand is true. However, at the same time you have a freewill choice and though grace is unmerited it is not irresistable. Joshua said; choose you this day who you will serve so you can choose to walk away from God anytime you like or choose to stay. When you receive Christ you receive the promises of eternal life. Galatians 5:16-21; 1 John 22:24-25; and 1 Timothy 6:19; are plain scriptures that show a condition on attaining a crown of life. A substance of a diamond is forever but the possesion of it can be lost or thrown away. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

 

[elvisman]

And there are some unforgivable sins in the Protestant religion too.

There are no unforgiveable sins as long as you have life in you.
The only sin spoken of in Scripture that is referred to as the unforgiveable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29, Luke 12:10) - involves final impenitence.**

Also - there is no such thing as the “Protestant Religion”. There are thousands of splintered sects of Protestantism and many of them disagree as to exactly what OSAS means. You don’t speak for all of them.**

 

[Padrej]

Most of you have it wrong about Protestants.

Once saved always saved doesn’t mean what you think it does. When a person is saved, they have asked Jesus Christ into their heart as the personal saviour. Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins so you have to ask accept Him into your heart and God forgives all of your sins. This means all of your sins up until that moment are forgiven and now your slate has essentially been washed clean. You don’t have to list all of your sins one by one because up until this point you didn’t realize that a lot of the stuff you were doing was wrong.

However, what that means is that now you have to ask for forgiveness when you do sin and now you have to ask for forgivenss for each individual sin. It’s because at this point you know what you are doing is sinning and since you ahve accepted Jesus into your heart you have a responsibility to live your life right.

So, you can’t be saved and then continue to sin and still be OK. It doesn’t work that way. You have to ask for forgiveness. It’s essentially the same as going to confession and then the priest giving you instructions for repentance. Protestants have to pray to God and ask for forgiveness. Protestants dont’ have to go through the priest.

And there are some unforgivable sins in the Protestant religion too.

I agree with what you have posted as that is what OSAS is SUPPOSED to be. However in my 22 years as a pastor I have known many who do not think they are capable of sin, think all they have to do is pray that prayer and that is it, AND even live the old way and never change.

 

[benidict]

Most of you have it wrong about Protestants.

Once saved always saved doesn’t mean what you think it does. When a person is saved, they have asked Jesus Christ into their heart as the personal saviour. Jesus died on the cross for all of our sins so you have to ask accept Him into your heart and God forgives all of your sins. This means all of your sins up until that moment are forgiven and now your slate has essentially been washed clean. You don’t have to list all of your sins one by one because up until this point you didn’t realize that a lot of the stuff you were doing was wrong.

However, what that means is that now you have to ask for forgiveness when you do sin and now you have to ask for forgivenss for each individual sin. It’s because at this point you know what you are doing is sinning and since you ahve accepted Jesus into your heart you have a responsibility to live your life right.

So, you can’t be saved and then continue to sin and still be OK. It doesn’t work that way. You have to ask for forgiveness. It’s essentially the same as going to confession and then the priest giving you instructions for repentance. Protestants have to pray to God and ask for forgiveness. Protestants dont’ have to go through the priest.

And there are some unforgivable sins in the Protestant religion too.

as Catholics, we strive to recieve Christ daily. and can you please show me a verse about praying for our salvation, by asking Jesus into our hearts? i find it interesting with protestants that are sola scriptura, yet use lingo, and phrases when speaking of salvation, that are not found in the bible. also how can you have a resonsibility to live right, since it requires no effort or work on your part? since all is of God, how do you have any responsibility? im not trying to get you riled up. as a former believer in osas, id really like to understand, how people come to this conclusion from the bible, when the whole bible, is taken into account. thank you in advance. Peace

 

[1beleevr]

as Catholics, we strive to recieve Christ daily. and can you please show me a verse about praying for our salvation, by asking Jesus into our hearts? i find it interesting with protestants that are sola scriptura, yet use lingo, and phrases when speaking of salvation, that are not found in the bible. also how can you have a resonsibility to live right, since it requires no effort or work on your part? since all is of God, how do you have any responsibility? im not trying to get you riled up. as a former believer in osas, id really like to understand, how people come to this conclusion from the bible, when the whole bible, is taken into account. thank you in advance. Peace

The one thing catholics have to be careful about, when it comes to OSAS, is not lumping all noncatholics into the same group; wrongly assuming that we all believe that once we accept Christ’s offer of eternal life, confess our sins, repent and are baptized, that we can continue on our same sinful path! There are a number of us who believe Jesus when He says,“No one can pluck you out of My hand.”. We also know that salvation is a journey, fraught with pitfalls and temptations, and since we still have a sin nature in us, we are as vulnerable as anyone to sin, and fall away! Heck, I bet there are many noncatholics who do not understand how catholics are saved Howconfirmation works, and this thing called purgatory We don’t read about confessing to a priest, but are told you must. Bottom line is this; no matter what you believe about OSAS, how many works you do, or what religous sect or denomination you belong to, we will ALL stand before God, and answer for our actions!

 

[1beleevr]

I agree with what you have posted as that is what OSAS is SUPPOSED to be. However in my 22 years as a pastor I have known many who do not think they are capable of sin, think all they have to do is pray that prayer and that is it, AND even live the old way and never change.

You know, Padrej, I was saved in the '60’s and that was the popular misconception that was perpetrated on many believers! As you grow in Christ, through trials and joy, it is like you are saved all over again; this time, having a greater understanding of grace, but also a deeper knowledge of Christ’s love and forgiveness! So, no one can’t just say a sinner’s prayer, and then proclaim," I’m in!" The Christian walk is a long and sometimes difficult journey, but the reward at the end, makes it all worth it! Let’s pick up our crosses and follow Jesus!

 

[jericho777]

interesting how you put this my friend. “tools” would indicate a work to be done. correct? to live victoriously takes some kind of effort or will. yes? Peace

NO I meant like discipling them in the things of God. Like the relationship Paul had with Timothy. Sorry if I was not clear.

 

[pismopal]

Was visiting a small church this past Sunday, had a great time, good preaching, great worship music! But the pastor’s wife said something that really made me sit up and take notice! She was talking about following God’s word; and she said,“If I served the Lord for 90 years, and then went out and sinned, I’m going straight to Hell!” I looked at my wife with apuzzled look on my face. Later while discussing what the pastor’s wife said, I remarked,“If she’s right, does that mean grace only works for you once?” Is that how easily God throws away His children? OSAS must be a crucial subject, seeing as how we are on the third installment! I believe that the jury is still out on this issue, and there are no clear answers for either argument! Surely, salvation does not give you a license to sin(most of us don’t need a license anyway!) But, what if your child brought home straight 'A’s for three years, then got an ‘F’ in hi/her senior year? Would you disown them? Jesus paid an infinite price for you and me, and I don’t see(because of grace and mercy) Him turning His back on us!

I had that puzzled look on my face too often before I converted…which is why I ultimately did…convert, that is. I was tired of going to a denom where there was “good preaching” and/or “worship music” and then hearing something that was out of tune with my understanding of Christianity. I finally took the trouble to read the Catechism of the CC and the associated Bible citations and I am now a Catholic. I have no trouble being puzzled or confused anymore. It is a nice feeling…hard to describe. In 12 years I have never had an urge to revert…none. Your mileage may vary

 

[benidict]

The one thing catholics have to be careful about, when it comes to OSAS, is not lumping all noncatholics into the same group; wrongly assuming that we all believe that once we accept Christ’s offer of eternal life, confess our sins, repent and are baptized, that we can continue on our same sinful path! There are a number of us who believe Jesus when He says,“No one can pluck you out of My hand.”. We also know that salvation is a journey, fraught with pitfalls and temptations, and since we still have a sin nature in us, we are as vulnerable as anyone to sin, and fall away! Heck, I bet there are many noncatholics who do not understand how catholics are saved Howconfirmation works, and this thing called purgatory We don’t read about confessing to a priest, but are told you must. Bottom line is this; no matter what you believe about OSAS, how many works you do, or what religous sect or denomination you belong to, we will ALL stand before God, and answer for our actions!

had a very good reply to all you just stated, but somehow, my computer didnt save it and went offline. i hate it when that happens. no-one can pluck you out of my hand. agreed. but Jesus never said you couldnt leave. purgatory? a Jewish belief that Catholics retained, and Jesus never sought to correct the Jews on this belief. the confusion falls on the protestants, who in many areas, have forsaken the doctrines and traditions of the apostles, to seek out their own doctrines and traditions. if you are stating that you can fall away, then you do not believe osas. you would be an arminian if im not mistaken. cool! and i agree. most protestants do not understand how a Catholic is saved. for one thing we are redeemed. not saved yet. that comes at death, hopefully. even the apostle paul was not sure. Peace

 

[1beleevr]

I had that puzzled look on my face too often before I converted…which is why I ultimately did…convert, that is. I was tired of going to a denom where there was “good preaching” and/or “worship music” and then hearing something that was out of tune with my understanding of Christianity. I finally took the trouble to read the Catechism of the CC and the associated Bible citations and I am now a Catholic. I have no trouble being puzzled or confused anymore. It is a nice feeling…hard to describe. In 12 years I have never had an urge to revert…none. Your mileage may vary

I love Pismo, my daughter lives in Grover Beach, and I was raised in Santa Maria! Anyway, after 43 years of walking with Christ(not always this close, though) I have no desire to convert to catholicism! I have been curious about the religion, because most catholics I have met, are arrogant, rude and divisive. Since being on the forum, I have seen that this not representative of the majority of them! Besides, I would be a “cafeteria catholic,” if I did convert!

 

[1beleevr]

had a very good reply to all you just stated, but somehow, my computer didnt save it and went offline. i hate it when that happens. no-one can pluck you out of my hand. agreed. but Jesus never said you couldnt leave. purgatory? a Jewish belief that Catholics retained, and Jesus never sought to correct the Jews on this belief. the confusion falls on the protestants, who in many areas, have forsaken the doctrines and traditions of the apostles, to seek out their own doctrines and traditions. if you are stating that you can fall away, then you do not believe osas. you would be an arminian if im not mistaken. cool! and i agree. most protestants do not understand how a Catholic is saved. for one thing we are redeemed. not saved yet. that comes at death, hopefully. even the apostle paul was not sure. Peace

As far as I can see, Jesus never referred to it as purgatory!

 

[Padrej]

You know, Padrej, I was saved in the '60’s and that was the popular misconception that was perpetrated on many believers! As you grow in Christ, through trials and joy, it is like you are saved all over again; this time, having a greater understanding of grace, but also a deeper knowledge of Christ’s love and forgiveness! So, no one can’t just say a sinner’s prayer, and then proclaim," I’m in!" The Christian walk is a long and sometimes difficult journey, but the reward at the end, makes it all worth it! Let’s pick up our crosses and follow Jesus!

I wish you could have told some of the churches I have served this.

 

[Nicea325]

I love Pismo, my daughter lives in Grover Beach, and I was raised in Santa Maria! Anyway, after 43 years of walking with Christ(not always this close, though) I have no desire to convert to catholicism! I have been curious about the religion, because most catholics I have met, are arrogant, rude and divisive. Since being on the forum, I have seen that this not representative of the majority of them! Besides, I would be a “cafeteria catholic,” if I did convert!

Hey…Santa Maria,CA? Is that the town where the 101 runs through it? If it is,my girlfriend’s friend has a restaurant there. I am from So.Cal…San Diego. Well currently live in Riverside County for the last 5 years.

BTW: If I have ever been arrogant,rude and divisive…my apologies.

 

[Pat_De]

How does a Christian kick out the Holy Spirit that dwells within the saved? Where in Scripture is this taught?

 

[RevJoeBonner]

How does a Christian kick out the Holy Spirit that dwells within the saved? Where in Scripture is this taught?

Do you remember the words of Jesus as to what the ONLY unpardonable sin is? Blaspheming or turning against the Holy Spirit.
The book of Revelation refers to the church becoming “Lukewarm” and allowing Jezebel in. You either have to have one spirit or the other.

 

[elvisman]

How does a Christian kick out the Holy Spirit that dwells within the saved? Where in Scripture is this taught?

Here are a few places in Scripture that speak to true believers who fell away because they stopped cooperating with God’s grace:

John 15:6
**Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them (angels) and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. **

Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

---

Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

---

2 Peter 2:20-21****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

 

[Rightlydivide]

Do you remember the words of Jesus as to what the ONLY unpardonable sin is? Blaspheming or turning against the Holy Spirit.
The book of Revelation refers to the church becoming “Lukewarm” and allowing Jezebel in. You either have to have one spirit or the other.

I have brought up the churches in Revelation before. I will be curious where this goes.

 

[benidict]

As far as I can see, Jesus never referred to it as purgatory!

and he never corrected the Jewish belief in it either. the Jews did not refer to it this way either, so why would he? read the book of macabees, to see references to this place. its also found in the appendix of josephus. and there are stories in the talmud that refer to a place like this. so just because it was not refered to the name “purgatory” doesn not mean it was nonexisten in their belief, and it was never rejected by Jesus. Peace