“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[Rightlydivide]

any hooo. back on topic. what do protestants who believe in osas do with Hebrews chapter 6? especially verse 4-6? For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted the also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. And if they are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. doesnt sound like osas to me. Peace

I will be more than happy to anwer that. But first, what do Catholics do with that? Do you believe that it is impossible for those who were once illuniminated to be renewed again to penance?

 

[benidict]

I will be more than happy to anwer that. But first, what do Catholics do with that? Do you believe that it is impossible for those who were once illuniminated to be renewed again to penance?

the question is for you, and others. staying on topic, im asking what protestants who believe in osas do with this passage. and how does it square with osas? what i think of this passage is irrelevant. what the Church teaches is what matters. but if you can answer this from a protestant perspective, i would be greatfull.my former baptist preacher, could never answer this to my satisfaction. and he was very bright. again this is assuming you believe osas. not all protestants do. Peace

 

[Rightlydivide]

the question is for you, and others. staying on topic, im asking what protestants who believe in osas do with this passage. and how does it square with osas? what i think of this passage is irrelevant. what the Church teaches is what matters. but if you can answer this from a protestant perspective, i would be greatfull.my former baptist preacher, could never answer this to my satisfaction. and he was very bright. again this is assuming you believe osas. not all protestants do. Peace

Okay but I am making a point and of course staying on topic. I do not believe that we deal differently with this passage. In other words, your question may or may not be relevent as it specifically relates to this passage. Once again, in my analysis of commentaries, I am not sure that Catholics and Protestants deal differently with this passage. Does your Church teach that it is impossible for people who were once illuminated to be renewed again? Is it okay to ask what you believe about this passage? Because it might be as simple as…we agree.

 

[benidict]

Okay but I am making a point and of course staying on topic. I do not believe that we deal differently with this passage. In other words, your question may or may not be relevent as it specifically relates to this passage. Once again, in my analysis of commentaries, I am not sure that Catholics and Protestants deal differently with this passage. Does your Church teach that it is impossible for people who were once illuminated to be renewed again? Is it okay to ask what you believe about this passage? Because it might be as simple as…we agree.

fair enough. this is from the footnotes in the D.R. translation. It is impossible,&c The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostasized from the faith, after having recieved many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell. if you are from an arminian persuasion, i dont think we will disagree to much. but i you believe in osas, then how does passage square with this doctrine? Peace

 

[Rightlydivide]

Okay (and I would love to understand why it does not use the word baptism if that is what it means), let me try this commentary on the passage. I would say it gives a good explaination

First, the context he is talking in deals with the question of first century Jewish Christians who apostatize from the Christian faith and go back to Judaism. In fact, the main point of the book of Hebrews is to warn Jewish Christians (the Hebrews of the title) not to abandon Christianity and go back to Judaism, which some did under persecution.

Given that–or related to that–we’re led to the second thing that needs to be kept in mind: There is a question here of what mode of language the author is using. In particular: Is he speaking technically or practically?

If he is speaking technically–offering the kind of absolute axiom that one would find in a systematic theology–then he would indeed mean that if you fall away from Christianity then you won’t repent afterwards. Your mind will be locked on evil such that you can’t (or won’t) change it, as happens with those in hell.

But normally the authors of Scripture are not speaking technically. That’s one of the reasons Scripture does not read like a systematic theology. You can’t approach a given passage with the assumption that it must be a set of exceptionless theological axioms. To do that is to commit what I’ve called the “technical statement fallacy.”

Instead, you have to recognize the flexibility and partialness of the way the authors of Scripture express themselves, as well as the fact that they are often speaking in practical terms and may use expressions of speech that are hyperbolic.

That’s what I think is happening in this passage: The author of Hebrews isn’t making a technical statement about getting apostates to repent. He’s making a practical one, and in so doing he’s expressing himself somewhat hyperbolically

 

[Padrej]

fair enough. this is from the footnotes in the D.R. translation. It is impossible,&c The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostasized from the faith, after having recieved many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell. if you are from an arminian persuasion, i dont think we will disagree to much. but i you believe in osas, then how does passage square with this doctrine? Peace

I hope you do not mind me jumping in on this one as I have had personal experience with this one from being a pastor 22 years.

I do NOT think that Paul is speaking in a hyperbolic sense here but in a very real sense. If you mirror this passage with 1 Corinthians 3 you have a picture that there are some who are “baby Christians” and those who have a “said faith” or are “Carnal” in nature. One parish I served for 8 years had a man who claimed to have given his heart to Christ back in 1950 (could even point to the spot on the altar rail) but to see his actions you would never believe it. Now the Bible tells me that I cannot judge a person, BUT it does tell me that “you will know them by their fruits” so I can be a fruit inspector. This person bore NO fruit worthy of a repentant nature and yet claimed because of one night at a revival meeting he gave his heart to Christ and attends church every Sunday that he is OK. The Bible in Colossians also tells us to “put off the old man” and “put on the new” so if a person becomes truly saved they will exhibit actions which will naturally follow what they say. For those in the OSAS class you cannot also reconcile this with the parable of the sheep and goats where the Lord separates out the sheep (true followers) and the goats (those who just happen to be part of the herd). Also you cannot reconcile this with the passage where Jesus says, “Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven.” Notice, they respond “did we not cast out…” (showing they believed in something) but Jesus replies, “Depart from me I never knew you.”

With those things in mind, the Hebrews 6 passage in question becomes very illuminated and says that you can say, “I believe” in one area and then turn around and keep living the carnal life believing that on a one time statement of faith that you have changed. Even John the Baptist said, “bear fruits worthy of repentance.” With all those things in mind you are able to walk away from the gift of salvation and not be able to feel the pull of the Holy Spirit on your life because your taste of the outside word is far greater than what you experienced in the “assembly of the brethren” or the church.

 

[Rightlydivide]

I hope you do not mind me jumping in on this one as I have had personal experience with this one from being a pastor 22 years.

I do NOT think that Paul is speaking in a hyperbolic sense here but in a very real sense. If you mirror this passage with 1 Corinthians 3 you have a picture that there are some who are “baby Christians” and those who have a “said faith” or are “Carnal” in nature. One parish I served for 8 years had a man who claimed to have given his heart to Christ back in 1950 (could even point to the spot on the altar rail) but to see his actions you would never believe it. Now the Bible tells me that I cannot judge a person, BUT it does tell me that “you will know them by their fruits” so I can be a fruit inspector. This person bore NO fruit worthy of a repentant nature and yet claimed because of one night at a revival meeting he gave his heart to Christ and attends church every Sunday that he is OK. The Bible in Colossians also tells us to “put off the old man” and “put on the new” so if a person becomes truly saved they will exhibit actions which will naturally follow what they say. For those in the OSAS class you cannot also reconcile this with the parable of the sheep and goats where the Lord separates out the sheep (true followers) and the goats (those who just happen to be part of the herd). Also you cannot reconcile this with the passage where Jesus says, “Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven.” Notice, they respond “did we not cast out…” (showing they believed in something) but Jesus replies, “Depart from me I never knew you.”

With those things in mind, the Hebrews 6 passage in question becomes very illuminated and says that you can say, “I believe” in one area and then turn around and keep living the carnal life believing that on a one time statement of faith that you have changed. Even John the Baptist said, “bear fruits worthy of repentance.” With all those things in mind you are able to walk away from the gift of salvation and not be able to feel the pull of the Holy Spirit on your life because your taste of the outside word is far greater than what you experienced in the “assembly of the brethren” or the church.

So the underline is what “impossible for people who were once illuminated to be renewed again means”?

 

[benidict]

I hope you do not mind me jumping in on this one as I have had personal experience with this one from being a pastor 22 years.

I do NOT think that Paul is speaking in a hyperbolic sense here but in a very real sense. If you mirror this passage with 1 Corinthians 3 you have a picture that there are some who are “baby Christians” and those who have a “said faith” or are “Carnal” in nature. One parish I served for 8 years had a man who claimed to have given his heart to Christ back in 1950 (could even point to the spot on the altar rail) but to see his actions you would never believe it. Now the Bible tells me that I cannot judge a person, BUT it does tell me that “you will know them by their fruits” so I can be a fruit inspector. This person bore NO fruit worthy of a repentant nature and yet claimed because of one night at a revival meeting he gave his heart to Christ and attends church every Sunday that he is OK. The Bible in Colossians also tells us to “put off the old man” and “put on the new” so if a person becomes truly saved they will exhibit actions which will naturally follow what they say. For those in the OSAS class you cannot also reconcile this with the parable of the sheep and goats where the Lord separates out the sheep (true followers) and the goats (those who just happen to be part of the herd). Also you cannot reconcile this with the passage where Jesus says, “Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven.” Notice, they respond “did we not cast out…” (showing they believed in something) but Jesus replies, “Depart from me I never knew you.”

With those things in mind, the Hebrews 6 passage in question becomes very illuminated and says that you can say, “I believe” in one area and then turn around and keep living the carnal life believing that on a one time statement of faith that you have changed. Even John the Baptist said, “bear fruits worthy of repentance.” With all those things in mind you are able to walk away from the gift of salvation and not be able to feel the pull of the Holy Spirit on your life because your taste of the outside word is far greater than what you experienced in the “assembly of the brethren” or the church.

thank you very much Father. always happy for your (name removed by moderator)ut. and this makes alot of sense to me given all the evidence from scripture. much appreciate it. Peace

 

[Padrej]

So the underline is what “impossible for people who were once illuminated to be renewed again means”?

With those things in mind, the Hebrews 6 passage in question becomes very illuminated and says that you can say, “I believe” in one area and then turn around and keep living the carnal life believing that on a one time statement of faith that you have changed. Even John the Baptist said, “bear fruits worthy of repentance.” With all those things in mind you are able to walk away from the gift of salvation and not be able to feel the pull of the Holy Spirit on your life because your taste of the outside word is far greater than what you experienced in the “assembly of the brethren” or the church.

You are correct, that is how I would believe this passage from my own experience as a pastor. In the case of the person that I used in illustration, I do not feel God has given up on him, but he keeps turning his back on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and wants things his way or the highway. I do not doubt he was drawn by the Spirit to the altar, it is just that the part of him that was still worldly took over. It is rather like another illustration Jesus used that when a demon is driven out it roams and then comes back and finds the place clean and swept and he brings in 7 more worse. the cleaned area would be the heart of the believer and the person has not allowed Christ to fill that spot so he returns to the world and it is impossible to get him back because he has “tasted the heavenly” but rejected it in favor of the world. I like to think of it like an addict, if they do not find a substitute for the addiction that is a healthy one the addiction becomes worse after swearing off of it. Case in point, go to an AA meeting and look at how many are hooked on coffee or tobacco, that habit is easier on the body than alcohol.

 

[Rightlydivide]

You are correct, that is how I would believe this passage from my own experience as a pastor. In the case of the person that I used in illustration, I do not feel God has given up on him, but he keeps turning his back on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and wants things his way or the highway. I do not doubt he was drawn by the Spirit to the altar, it is just that the part of him that was still worldly took over. It is rather like another illustration Jesus used that when a demon is driven out it roams and then comes back and finds the place clean and swept and he brings in 7 more worse. the cleaned area would be the heart of the believer and the person has not allowed Christ to fill that spot so he returns to the world and it is impossible to get him back because he has “tasted the heavenly” but rejected it in favor of the world. I like to think of it like an addict, if they do not find a substitute for the addiction that is a healthy one the addiction becomes worse after swearing off of it. Case in point, go to an AA meeting and look at how many are hooked on coffee or tobacco, that habit is easier on the body than alcohol.

Lets try this in another way. What would impossible to renew mean to the Jewish Christians or specific audience of this epistle? Show off your exegetical skills for me…

 

[Padrej]

Lets try this in another way. What would impossible to renew mean to the Jewish Christians or specific audience of this epistle? Show off your exegetical skills for me…

The word “impossible” is used 3 other times in the book of Hebrews. It is impossible for the blood of animals to take away sin (10:4) for God to lie (v 18), and for anyone to please God without faith (11:6). Here in 6:4 it is impossible to renew those who have fallen away from the faith. Enlightened is used only one other time in Hebrews and refers to a person who has been illuminated (that is how it is translated in 10:2). In that verse it refers to an enlightenment of the Truth. Tasted is used elsewhere to describe the actual experience of the person (2:9) Thus to “taste the heavenly gift” is to experience the gift of eternal life. The book of Hebrews also uses the Greek word for partakers to refer to regenerated people (1:9; 3:1; and 14)

The phrase “if they fall away”: There is no indication of of conditional elements that could be used here in the Biblical Greek, in other words it is an argument against a hypothetical situation, in short it is walking into deliberate apostasy or defecting from any tenant of the faith.

To renew: means to restore. In other words, it is impossible for continuous effort in the Christian community (what the writer is speaking about) to restore an apostate back to fellowship with God. This is the reason for the warning in 3:13 to exhort one against hardening of the heart and returning to the world.Continuing in Christian immaturity is a dangerous game, thus the phrase “crucify again.” This is a departing from the faith in a public rejection of Christ by words or actions, thus crucifying Him over again.

The word rejected in 3:8 refers to not being able to partake of God’s rewards because you are now disqualified from them. (see also 1 Cor. 9:27 and 2 cor. 13:5-7)

In short if you become apostate, and reject the calling of God, and remain a carnal or baby Christian you are not able to be swayed back.

 

[Rightlydivide]

The word “impossible” is used 3 other times in the book of Hebrews. It is impossible for the blood of animals to take away sin (10:4) for God to lie (v 18), and for anyone to please God without faith (11:6). Here in 6:4 it is impossible to renew those who have fallen away from the faith. Enlightened is used only one other time in Hebrews and refers to a person who has been illuminated (that is how it is translated in 10:2). In that verse it refers to an enlightenment of the Truth. Tasted is used elsewhere to describe the actual experience of the person (2:9) Thus to “taste the heavenly gift” is to experience the gift of eternal life. The book of Hebrews also uses the Greek word for partakers to refer to regenerated people (1:9; 3:1; and 14)

The phrase “if they fall away”: There is no indication of of conditional elements that could be used here in the Biblical Greek, in other words it is an argument against a hypothetical situation, in short it is walking into deliberate apostasy or defecting from any tenant of the faith.

To renew: means to restore. In other words, it is impossible for continuous effort in the Christian community (what the writer is speaking about) to restore an apostate back to fellowship with God. This is the reason for the warning in 3:13 to exhort one against hardening of the heart and returning to the world.Continuing in Christian immaturity is a dangerous game, thus the phrase “crucify again.” This is a departing from the faith in a public rejection of Christ by words or actions, thus crucifying Him over again.

The word rejected in 3:8 refers to not being able to partake of God’s rewards because you are now disqualified from them. (see also 1 Cor. 9:27 and 2 cor. 13:5-7)

In short if you become apostate, and reject the calling of God, and remain a carnal or baby Christian you are not able to be swayed back.

Based upon this analysis alone, and using only this, I do not see any areas you covered that would one could differentiate theology in regards to soteriology based upon whether one is Anglican, Fundamentalist, or Catholic, do you?
Now, using your analogy and personal experiences, yes. But your exegesis does not seem to cover that. My point being that what people often cite this verse is talking about and the context in which it is debated is not held up under a careful exegesis of the passage.

 

[CARV]

I think that many Catholics criticize OSAS (aka the doctrine of the preservation of the saints) because they do not understand it. The idea is originally one of the five points of Calvinism. It cannot be grasped or properly understood without the other four points. I think that most protestants are poorly educated in this regard as well. It is a lot more complicated then “believe in Jesus and be eternally saved”. The reformed position goes much deeper than that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Five_points_of_Calvinism

“The central assertion of these canons is that God is able to save every person upon whom he has mercy and that his efforts are not frustrated by the unrighteousness or the inability of humans.”

 

[Padrej]

Based upon this analysis alone, and using only this, I do not see any areas you covered that would one could differentiate theology in regards to soteriology based upon whether one is Anglican, Fundamentalist, or Catholic, do you?
Now, using your analogy and personal experiences, yes. But your exegesis does not seem to cover that. My point being that what people often cite this verse is talking about and the context in which it is debated is not held up under a careful exegesis of the passage.

You asked me specifically:
"What would impossible to renew mean to the Jewish Christians or specific audience of this epistle?" That got answered, if you did not see this kindly go back and re-read it.
What other “careful exegesis of the passage” are you hunting for? Do you want me to say this passage is NOT about walking away from your salvation? I will not print such as that is not what the passage is saying at all either in Greek or English. The problem lies in that the once saved always saved crowd like to use this to say it is not meaning this because it messes up their salvation doctrines that come from other parts of scripture. If the person walks away from church they like to hide that fact by saying, “They were not saved to start with.” This runs counter to the teaching of Jesus in the parable of the sower where you have the different people receiving the word of God. In this case the person received it with joy but soon let the cares of the world come in because there was no roots.

 

[Padrej]

Rightlydivide
Let me ask you a question. If I had died while I was away from Christ, having done all the bad things that I had done and another person who was doing exactly the same things I was doing also died, why should I get into heaven and not him? Is that fair, if I no longer followed Christ? No it isn’t. But the point remains that I believe that the ONLY thing that can separate us from God and our salvation is us, if we quit putting our faith in Jesus Christ. There is no fear of losing our salvation, but we can choose to give it back and walk away. You will never wake up and find that you have lost your salvation, but you may at some point decide that you no longer believe or want anything to do with Christ. Would He still force you to go to heaven? I don’t think so.

But it does not matter what I think or what you think it matters what God says. So let me give you a few (just a few of the many) passages which show that we must continue in the faith:

Ezekiel 18:24 (NIV) “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

(2 John 1:8-9 NIV) [8] Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. [9] Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

In Revelation we read the letters from Jesus to the seven churches. I want to quote just one small part from each of those letters. Notice the common theme: (Revelation 2:7 NIV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

(Revelation 2:11 NIV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

(Revelation 2:17 NIV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

(Revelation 3:11-12 NIV) [11] I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. [12] Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

(Revelation 3:21 NIV) To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

It is to the person who overcomes, or in other words who finishes what they started to whom Jesus makes these promises. Now let me ask you a question. What do you think happens to the person who does not overcome? Would they get to eat from the tree of life? Would they not be hurt by the second death? Would they be given the hidden manna? Would they be given authority over nations? Would they be dressed in white? Would they be able to sit down with Christ on His throne? If they were able to do all these things, then it would make no sense for Jesus to even have mentioned them. No, don’t miss the warnings and promises here. We must continue and we must overcome.

So who is it that overcomes? (1 John 5:3-5 NIV) [3] This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, [4] for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. [5] Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. It is those who place their faith in Jesus Christ, but also who follow His commands. In other words, the person who continues to follow Jesus.

**As long as I want to follow Christ I am eternally secure, but if I change my mind and don’t want anything to do with Him, He will allow me to leave, because I still have free will.
**
Look at what Peter had to say: (2 Peter 1:5-9 NIV) [5] For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; [6] and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; [7] and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. [8] For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Notice he says ‘cleansed from his past sins’ not cleansed from past, present and future sins. That is also the idea behind this: (1 John 1:9 NIV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

This is not to say that a sin can take your salvation away, but if you sin and refuse to confess it and repair your relationship with God, then you are more likely to sin again and again and drift away into apostasy. Jesus told us what the end times would be like. He told us that evil would get worse, He also told us what would happen to many believers: (Matthew 24:12-13 NIV) [12] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [13] but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Notice again, He says that those who stand firm will be saved. We must guard our faith and our love for Christ, as long as we do we are eternally secure, but that does not mean we can do anything or live anyway we choose, we must stand firm and continue in our faith.

 

[jericho777]

Heb 6:4-6 states it is impossible to be reborn again. This verse is not saying a believer even would need to be born again but is highlighting how secure one is in their initial salvation

When Heb 6:4-6 is viewed in light of Heb 6:13-20 it shows that it is God who promised and it is God who will deliver on that promise. Heb. 6:13-20 When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.”c 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

The main issue in OSAS is who initially does the saving and who keeps the believer saved. In V. 17 it is God who promises and fulfills that promise. The hope of our salvation is in His finnished work in our lives v. 19-20. We just need to stand aside and let Him work His will in us for His glory.

 

[Padrej]

Heb 6:4-6 states it is impossible to be reborn again. This verse is not saying a believer even would need to be born again but is highlighting how secure one is in their initial salvation

When Heb 6:4-6 is viewed in light of Heb 6:13-20 it shows that it is God who promised and it is God who will deliver on that promise. Heb. 6:13-20 When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.”c 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

The main issue in OSAS is who initially does the saving and who keeps the believer saved. In V. 17 it is God who promises and fulfills that promise. The hope of our salvation is in His finnished work in our lives v. 19-20. We just need to stand aside and let Him work His will in us for His glory.

So you are saying that If I give my heart to the Lord, say a sinner’s prayer that I can still live the way I want to and be just as bad of a person as ever? This is the danger of OSAS.

 

[Rightlydivide]

You asked me specifically:
"What would impossible to renew mean to the Jewish Christians or specific audience of this epistle?" That got answered, if you did not see this kindly go back and re-read it.
What other “careful exegesis of the passage” are you hunting for? Do you want me to say this passage is NOT about walking away from your salvation? I will not print such as that is not what the passage is saying at all either in Greek or English. The problem lies in that the once saved always saved crowd like to use this to say it is not meaning this because it messes up their salvation doctrines that come from other parts of scripture. If the person walks away from church they like to hide that fact by saying, “They were not saved to start with.” This runs counter to the teaching of Jesus in the parable of the sower where you have the different people receiving the word of God. In this case the person received it with joy but soon let the cares of the world come in because there was no roots.

You did answer the question. What makes you think that I did not see the answer? I then had a follow up based upon your answer. .

 

[Rightlydivide]

Rightlydivide

But it does not matter what I think or what you think it matters what God says. So let me give you a few (just a few of the many) passages which show that we must continue in the faith:

Ezekiel 18:24 (NIV) “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

(2 John 1:8-9 NIV) [8] Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. [9] Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

In Revelation we read the letters from Jesus to the seven churches. I want to quote just one small part from each of those letters. Notice the common theme: (Revelation 2:7 NIV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

(Revelation 2:11 NIV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

(Revelation 2:17 NIV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

(Revelation 3:11-12 NIV) [11] I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. [12] Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

(Revelation 3:21 NIV) To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

It is to the person who overcomes, or in other words who finishes what they started to whom Jesus makes these promises. Now let me ask you a question. What do you think happens to the person who does not overcome? Would they get to eat from the tree of life? Would they not be hurt by the second death? Would they be given the hidden manna? Would they be given authority over nations? Would they be dressed in white? Would they be able to sit down with Christ on His throne? If they were able to do all these things, then it would make no sense for Jesus to even have mentioned them. No, don’t miss the warnings and promises here. We must continue and we must overcome.

So who is it that overcomes? (1 John 5:3-5 NIV) [3] This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, [4] for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. [5] Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. It is those who place their faith in Jesus Christ, but also who follow His commands. In other words, the person who continues to follow Jesus.

**As long as I want to follow Christ I am eternally secure, but if I change my mind and don’t want anything to do with Him, He will allow me to leave, because I still have free will.
**
Look at what Peter had to say: (2 Peter 1:5-9 NIV) [5] For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; [6] and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; [7] and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. [8] For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Notice he says ‘cleansed from his past sins’ not cleansed from past, present and future sins. That is also the idea behind this: (1 John 1:9 NIV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

This is not to say that a sin can take your salvation away, but if you sin and refuse to confess it and repair your relationship with God, then you are more likely to sin again and again and drift away into apostasy. Jesus told us what the end times would be like. He told us that evil would get worse, He also told us what would happen to many believers: (Matthew 24:12-13 NIV) [12] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [13] but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Notice again, He says that those who stand firm will be saved. We must guard our faith and our love for Christ, as long as we do we are eternally secure, but that does not mean we can do anything or live anyway we choose, we must stand firm and continue in our faith.

The source of the majority of this post directed at me
behindthebadge.net/articles/a90.html
If you wish to talk to me, talk to me, don’t throw long quotes from websites at me. Its bad form Bishop.

 

[Padrej]

The source of the majority of this post directed at me
behindthebadge.net/articles/a90.html
If you wish to talk to me, talk to me, don’t throw long quotes from websites at me. Its bad form Bishop.

It made my point. as Far as I am concerned this subject that been driven into the ground that OSAS is not compatible with scripture.