“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Jimmy!
I browsed thro’ your post and many other posts that followed. I felt that no one really answered your question or clarified OSAS.

I am a Roman Catholic too like you but will not reject a belief merely because it belongs to Protestants.

I share my thoughts on OSAS including some that have been published after theological review and clearance from our church (NIHIL OBSTAT).

Salvation is not an event but a continuing process which concludes when a soul finally attains eternal union with God.

The journey is full of trials and tribulations and marked by numerous falls. A saved sinner may fall many times, but will rise again each time as a stronger person.

The ultimate state may not be realised during the soul’s sojourn on earth but may have to wait for total cleansing in purgatory.

It is better to suffer on earth than in purgatory

The process can be compared to refining silver (look up clarion-call.org/extras/malachi.htm)

John 10:27-29 only confirms OSAS “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”

Or consider the case of Paul who hd refused to believe in Jesus and even tormented christians. Did not Jesus create for him an extrordinary chance to convert?

*What about Jonah the prophet who disobeyed God. He was swallowed by a whale and ultimately had to repent and obey. *

Man may break faith but God never breaks faith.

St. Louis of Granada wrote in his famous book “The Sinner’s Guide”:To all the benefits which we have just enumerated we must add that of election, or predestination, which belongs to those whom God has chosen from all eternity to be partakers of His glory
.

Once saved we have the choice to delay our final destination and extend our misery even unto the first hell (purgatory); but it cannot be denied

“Salvation is not an event but a continuing process which concludes when a soul finally attains eternal union with God.”

“And the Bible says it’s so…”

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Jimmy,
you have misunderstood Pat completely. When he said “Hebrews 6 shuts the door completely on those that would say they can move in and out of God’s salvation”, obviously he means those who don’t demonstrate any eagerness for fulfillment of the hope (of salvation) and are sluggish

Regards
Pitcharan

Hi Pitcharan,

I disagree and I think that he is taking the Bible out of context, to try to prove the errant Calvin belief in “Predestination” and in the errant Protestant, Calvin belief in “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS).

Thank you for your post.

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi Pitcharan,

I disagree and I think that he is taking the Bible out of context, to try to prove the errant Calvin belief in “Predestination” and in the errant Protestant, Calvin belief in “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS).

Thank you for your post.

May be you’re right or may be I’m wrong. But what I pointed out was purely based on your reproduction of Hebrews 6. If you don’t attach motives to Pat and look at Hebrews 6 with an open mind, you will make sense out of his statement.

Please remember, before the break-up we were all one. Which means each fragment will have its share of grace; let us leverage our strengths and overlook each others’ weaknesses.

 

[benidict]

May be you’re right or may be I’m wrong. But what I pointed out was purely based on your reproduction of Hebrews 6. If you don’t attach motives to Pat and look at Hebrews 6 with an open mind, you will make sense out of his statement.

Please remember, before the break-up we were all one. Which means each fragment will have its share of grace; let us leverage our strengths and overlook each others’ weaknesses.

interesting. hebrews 6 actually is one of the chapters i could never reconcile with calvinism. if anything the opening verses are anti calvinist. however i will gladly admit, hebrews is one of the harder letters to understand. thank God for the Magesterium. Peace

 

[Pitcharan]

All you have to do to emphasize your point is go to the great apostle Paul - see 2Corinthians 3:12-18

Hebrews 6 shuts the door completely on those that would say they can move in and out of God’s salvation, which the Bible says He prepared and purposed before the foundation of the world. If a person says Hebrews 6 is a Christian and they deny the faith, then the rest of the passage says there no longer remains a way of salvation - that is it you are cooked - pun intended. It would mean that once you were saved, then you turned away and are now lost, then there is no coming back. I have heard this referred to as once your lost after being saved, then you are lost forever. It is not taught in Scripture and no one, including the saved can snatch oneself out of the hand of God; He will treat you as He did Jonah as he tried to run from God and man was he chastened by god, you an run but you can’t hide and all children do this to their father from time to time and the fathers do discipline their children to bring them back in line and likewise God does the same with His children just as God teaches in His Word.

So you may be a Christian and not believe in the once God has you that is it camp, but you will believe it and be thankful if you are a Christian. If you are not a Christian, then pray for forgiveness and ask God to remove the blindness.

If you say it is a non-Christian, which it is, then the passage speaks of an apostate which is a person that has all the knowledge and participated with the life of believers, and never in their heart truly believed and the greatest example is Judas Iscariot. Can someone argue that He was once saved , then lost? I pity the person who could make a case for Judas Iscariot since he was determined as the son of perdition long before he was ever born.

Dear Pat, Jimmy and other members who I believe are genuinely seeking the truth, I think the answer to this long debate can be inferred from Matt 12:43-45 (or Lk11:24-26) and 2Peter 2:22.

 

[elvisman]

Truth is that the Bible describes God as doing many things that would make you label Him a monster. He kills men, women and children with flood water, sends angels to kill the first-born children of Egypt, and orders the Isrealites to slaughter men women and children with the sword. So it is not hard to imagine that God loves some and not others. Paul seems to agree.

Romans 9:10

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Paul’s last paragraph seems directly aimed at you and your disposition.

And therein lies your hermeneutical blunder. You don’t understand hyperbole, nor do you seem to have a grasp on anthropomorphic language.
**
Genesis 6:5-6 (anthropomorphic language)
When the LORD saw how great was man’s wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil, he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved.

Does God make mistakes so as to* regret* anything?
According to you and Calvin, he does - and you’re both wrong.

---

Luke 14:26 (hyperbolic language)
"If any man come to me (Jesus), and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Is Jesus advocating hating our parents in direct violation of the Commandment, “Honor thy father and mother”?
According to you and Calvin, he is - and you’re both wrong.

Finally, 1 Tim. 2:3-4 tells us emphatically:
**"This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."

Conclusion: Calvinism and it’s doctrine of OSAS is a man-made lie.
**

 

[elvisman]

Believers cannot fall away anymore than they can believe in the first place without the sovereignty of God working in the heart of the elected. Unfortunately for you; you have an understanding of these passages as though they are referring to believers as opposed to non-believers who have head knowledge, but not heart knowledge.

Context is everything; as Paul for example in your Romans passage; Paul does know that there are going to be both those who are true and those that are false who will receive this letter or hearing of this letter so he gives the only way we can know as humans of the reflection of Christ dwelling in a life and that is a life of perseverance wrought by the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:19 gives the example of what I am speaking of. You must have knowledge and skill in seeing and understanding the context of the passage and the background to which the passage is referring to gain understanding as to what God is saying. You are lacking this skill in this particular post, but your walk is different than mine or the next persons, but as long as you are determined and persistent in reading and studying the Word and you are truly a Christian then these easy things will become very clear and you can move even deeper and I pray that will happen for you and may the Lord bless you and nice to meet you. You are not really Elvis are you; aren’t you dead?

John 15 is also about perseverance the the righteous works prepared by God, the bearing of fruit to distinguish the true from the false and notice the Lord says you can do NOTHING without Him.

2 Peter should be obvious He is speaking of head knowledge, which is the person that hears and says they believe, like the demons or like the false confessors who are unable to persevere because as Jesus said you can do NOTHING without me.

If you do not mind me asking; how long have you been a Christian? I’m not putting you down or on the spot so please do not be offended by the question and if you do want to answer but not in the public, then send me a private email through the forum. Blessings!

WRONG.
You guys like to run around telling us Catholics that Sola Scriptura is the truth, yet you make up these false distinctions of “head knowledge” and “heart knowledge” - yet NONE of these passages says anything about that.
They are speaking to real believers who fell/fall away and the consequences for their actions.

**Remember this: God wills the salvation of ALL - not just some (1 Tim. 2:3-4). The doctrine of OSAS is nothing but prideful arrogance. Some stay and some turn away from his grace.
**That is the doctrine of Free Will that has been taught since the time of Adam and Eve and was rejected by Calvin.

As for your question - I was baptized into the Christian family when I was a month old, according to the baptismal formula prescribed by Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:19).

 

[MariaG]

That is a shame and a death wish since what Calvin taught God used to lift many souls. Calvin did not invent anything he was just a brilliant expositor of Scripture because he was gifted by God and in his obedience to the Word; God used him in a mighty way to articulate and rightly divide the Word of Truth just as he did Luther and others. To reject what Calvin brilliantly articulated is to reject the direct teaching of God which is a rejection of the Word of God, which is why I state it is a death wish, but you can only study what Calvin taught and thoroughly compare it to the Bible and drawl your own conclusion and perhaps you have done that???

I have never truly understood how someone can rely on commentary and interpretation of scripture of those who came 1500 years after the fact rather than those who were taught by the apostles.

Scripture warns of those who will come along twisting scripture to their own ends. And it amazes me the blindness that rejects the teaching of those taught directly from the apostles yet embraces teachings of those who came along and contradict that which was taught earlier.

I know there is a huge number of people who never even heard of church fathers like ignatious, but those who post here know yet still cling to those who have come along instead of returning to the apostolic teaching and interpretation, sadden me greatly.

As for studying Calvin, the words of an evangelical minister come to my mind. When asked whether Christians should learn about the occult so as to better recognize it, he related how those in the US treasury learn to spot the fakes. They spend hours studying the real thing. if one wants to read commentary and interpretation of scripture, go to the those taught by the apostles, and not those who have come along

 

[pismopal]

The reason I said I would be a cafeteria catholic, is because I couldn’t bring myself to call the pope holy father, I would not go to confession weekly, and probably would still eat meat(albeit chicken) on Friday. Wouldn’t wear a crucifix either. And don’t believe in purgatory. That’s my very honest reply!

Your objections are relatively minor but serve as an example of the many misconceptions about Catholics. If you don’t call the Pope …Holy Father…you might call the president of the USA…what? We are OK with the meat on Friday except during Lent. There is no requirement that one wear a crucifix. Your disbelief in purgatory does not mean that it doesn’t exist…that’s my honest reply

 

[Springkeeper]

“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”(Matt 24:45-51)

A servant of the Lord was sent to hell (weeping and gnashing of teeth in the Bible ALWAYS indicates hell.) Baptists and Evangelicals, at least, indentify the servant indicated in this and other passages as being “saved” yet stipulate he merely loses rewards which is clearly (at least to me) not indicated in the above verse.

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled”.(John 17:12)

Judas became lost by his choice.

On a purely experiential note, I have several young Baptist ladies with which I am friends. All of them have “made a profession of faith” and all but one is living lives of willful and deliberate disobedience to God (and their parents). They all are certain they will go to heaven because they prayed the sinner’s prayer and nothing will convice them otherwise. I am aware of the Reformed position that if Jesus is not your Lord, he is not your Savior (very wise) and have informed them but they are steadfast in clinging to OSAS even though one could argue that they were never saved in the first place. They have effectively “been innoculated” against Jesus as Lord.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I have never truly understood how someone can rely on commentary and interpretation of scripture of those who came 1500 years after the fact rather than those who were taught by the apostles.

Scripture warns of those who will come along twisting scripture to their own ends. And it amazes me the blindness that rejects the teaching of those taught directly from the apostles yet embraces teachings of those who came along and contradict that which was taught earlier.

I know there is a huge number of people who never even heard of church fathers like ignatious, but those who post here know yet still cling to those who have come along instead of returning to the apostolic teaching and interpretation, sadden me greatly.

As for studying Calvin, the words of an evangelical minister come to my mind. When asked whether Christians should learn about the occult so as to better recognize it, he related how those in the US treasury learn to spot the fakes. They spend hours studying the real thing. if one wants to read commentary and interpretation of scripture, go to the those taught by the apostles, and not those who have come along

 

[jerry_kelso]

Hi Jerry,
thanks for the detailed response. My understandind and belief is this:
Once saved we have the choice to delay our final destination and extend our misery even unto the first hell (purgatory); but it cannot be denied. Recall 1Tim 2:13
“If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.”

Regards
Pitcharan

Pitcharan: what case according to the scriptures do you have to prove that you get aa 2nd chance to reconcile with God? God bless Jerry Kelso

 

[1beleevr]

interesting. hebrews 6 actually is one of the chapters i could never reconcile with calvinism. if anything the opening verses are anti calvinist. however i will gladly admit, hebrews is one of the harder letters to understand. thank God for the Magesterium. Peace

Actually I thank God for the Advocate, the Comforter; you guessed it, the Holy Spirit(which will lead US into Spirit and Truth). I understand more of the Bible today than I ever have!

 

[1beleevr]

“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”(Matt 24:45-51)

A servant of the Lord was sent to hell (weeping and gnashing of teeth in the Bible ALWAYS indicates hell.) Baptists and Evangelicals, at least, indentify the servant indicated in this and other passages as being “saved” yet stipulate he merely loses rewards which is clearly (at least to me) not indicated in the above verse.

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled”.(John 17:12)

Judas became lost by his choice.

On a purely experiential note, I have several young Baptist ladies with which I am friends. All of them have “made a profession of faith” and all but one is living lives of willful and deliberate disobedience to God (and their parents). They all are certain they will go to heaven because they prayed the sinner’s prayer and nothing will convice them otherwise. I am aware of the Reformed position that if Jesus is not your Lord, he is not your Savior (very wise) and have informed them but they are steadfast in clinging to OSAS even though one could argue that they were never saved in the first place. They have effectively “been innoculated” against Jesus as Lord.

Was Judas saved? Were the other disciples saved, and if so, when? Didn’t most of them sin while being with Jesus? I mean Peter lied, and some of the others were guilty of being proud and worrying! Judas was the treasurer, and some account were that he was “skimming” off the top for himself! I’m not so sure how loyal he was to Jesus, and we must remember that Judas was used by God and Satan. God to fulfill prophecy, and Satan to kill Jesus. The Sanhedrin knew that they had no authority to execute anyone, so they had to convince the Romans that Jesus was a threat to the Roman Empire. Voila! Enter Judas, indwelt by Satan to betray Jesus in to the hands of the Romans! God’s plan was working to pefection. Terrible as it was, Jesus had to die!

 

[elvisman]

Was Judas saved? Were the other disciples saved, and if so, when? Didn’t most of them sin while being with Jesus? I mean Peter lied, and some of the others were guilty of being proud and worrying! Judas was the treasurer, and some account were that he was “skimming” off the top for himself! I’m not so sure how loyal he was to Jesus, and we must remember that Judas was used by God and Satan. God to fulfill prophecy, and Satan to kill Jesus. The Sanhedrin knew that they had no authority to execute anyone, so they had to convince the Romans that Jesus was a threat to the Roman Empire. Voila! Enter Judas, indwelt by Satan to betray Jesus in to the hands of the Romans! God’s plan was working to pefection. Terrible as it was, Jesus had to die!

**Ummm, not so fast.

---

**Judas was one of the one’s sent out to preach, heal the sick and cast out demons in Jesus’ name (Matt. 10:5). He had a not only a knowledge (gnosis) of Jesus but a full experiential knowledge (epignosis) of him. This is the type of person that Peter spoke of in 2 Pet. 2:20 who are real believers and fall away from God’s grace by their own choice. **

---

Judas was a genuine believer in Christ who fell away. God didn’t make him do what he did and neither did Satan. Judas surrendered to Satan’s will.

So the answer to your question as to whether Judas was saved - his life is a PERFECT example of why OSAS and Calvinism in general is a farse.

 

[1beleevr]

**Ummm, *not ***so fast.

---

Judas was one of the one’s sent out to preach, heal the sick and cast out demons in Jesus’ name (Matt. 10:5). He had a not only a knowledge (gnosis) of Jesus but a full experiential knowledge (epignosis) of him. This is the type of person that Peter spoke of in 2 Pet. 2:20 who are real believers and fall away from God’s grace by their own choice.

---

Judas was a genuine believer in Christ who fell away. God didn’t make him do what he did and neither did Satan. Judas surrendered to Satan’s will.

So the answer to your question as to whether Judas was saved - his life is a PERFECT example of why OSAS and Calvinism in general is a farse.

I know that Judas submitted to Satan’s will, much like we do, even after being saved But prove to me that Judas was not a part of God’s plan to get Jesus to Calvary! Yes he sinned, just like he others, but if not Judas, it would have been someone else. Please reread the part about the Jews not being able to execute anyone, and then tell me how they were going to accomplish this. Judas was the one; God allowed Satan to enter him!

 

[elvisman]

I know that Judas submitted to Satan’s will, much like we do, even after being saved But prove to me that Judas was not a part of God’s plan to get Jesus to Calvary! Yes he sinned, just like he others, but if not Judas, it would have been someone else. Please reread the part about the Jews not being able to execute anyone, and then tell me how they were going to accomplish this. Judas was the one; God allowed Satan to enter him!

God allows ALL of us to follow Satan, even though he wills the salvation of ALL people (1 Tim. 2:4)
What happened to Judas was his own choice.

 

[1beleevr]

God allows ALL of us to follow Satan, even though he wills the salvation of ALL people (1 Tim. 2:4)
What happened to Judas was his own choice.

Not so fast! If it were Judas’s choice and he acted on his own, why did he wait so long? Do you honestly not believe that God was in total control of this situation! Jesus, as we know, was fully man and fully God! The human side of Christ allowed Judas to get close to him, and befriend him, and be one of his disciples. All of the disciples were chosen for a reason, a nd Judas’s lot as it turned out, was to betray Jesus into the hands of the Romans! So, your theory(or opinion) has some leaks!

 

[jericho777]

and he never corrected the Jewish belief in it either. the Jews did not refer to it this way either, so why would he? read the book of macabees, to see references to this place. its also found in the appendix of josephus. and there are stories in the talmud that refer to a place like this. so just because it was not refered to the name “purgatory” doesn not mean it was nonexisten in their belief, and it was never rejected by Jesus. Peace

Jesus never referred to Macabees because it was not considered scripture by the Jews. When eternity is referenced in the NT it is clear there are only two destinations after death. No middle ground. 2 Chor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[onenow1]

I know that Judas submitted to Satan’s will, much like we do, even after being saved But prove to me that Judas was not a part of God’s plan to get Jesus to Calvary! Yes he sinned, just like he others, but if not Judas, it would have been someone else. Please reread the part about the Jews not being able to execute anyone, and then tell me how they were going to accomplish this. Judas was the one; God allowed Satan to enter him!

Hi,#1
A suspicious rendering of scripture # 1 ! Man has free will to choose, Jesus allowed Judas communion, in hope of a change of heart, just as He did with the rich man who sadly, walked away. As far as the Pharisees, getting Jesus executed, Judas had not participated in this part of the plot, and in all reality was not even needed. I believe this is a construct of your and others imagination.

.Luke 22: for the son of man goes as has been determined, but woe to the man that betrays Him.

=onenow1 Luke 22> I believe Judas is given a chance to repent at supper, and later when he recognizes an injustice but despairs.

Peace and God Bless
onenow1opcorn: