J
- Status
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ellammcg
Guest
I have.
spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/finney.htm
mtio.com/articles/aissar81.htm#horton
graceonlinelibrary.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=405
I have not heard an evangelical or fundamentalist say so, however.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Martin Luther
http://www.nycphantom.com/store/JohnCalvin.jpg%between%
John Calvin
King Henry VIII
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/James_I,_VI_by_John_de_Critz,_c.1606..png%between%
King James I
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
John Wesley
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ness.jpg/485px-George_Whitefield_likeness.jpg%between%
George Whitefield
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Egw1899info.jpg%between%
Ellen White
Religion…, Religions…, or beliefs of “men”….
Protestant, non-Catholic Christians today, are the followers of other… Protestant, non-Catholic Christians and that is where their beliefs can be found.
Yet for some reason, many here act like they “figured it all out” on their own…they didn’t.
These are seven people (pictured above) who thought that they were “right” and that everyone else who preceded them was wrong…wrong about something “Christian”…wrong about an interpretation. This is why the Protestant doctrine of “Personal Interpretation" is so wrong…it has been a disaster and the cause of divisions and sub-divisions of Christianity.
There isn’t enough room here, to list all of the “men” (and women) that started their own, non-Catholic Christian denomination, or had “their say”, or came up with “something new”, or tried to re-invent Christianity, this has been going on for more than 500 years now.
There is a face, a human face, behind every “new” Protestant, non-Catholic Christian ideal, interpretation, denomination and belief.
When I read posts here, where people write that the Catholic Church is an institution, “created by men” and that the Catholic Church is “wrong” about, this or that, I just smile and shake my head.
Would someone here, please explain why there is more than one Christian religion. Isn’t it because non-Catholic, Protestant Christians cannot make up their mind, whose beliefs it is that they want to follow?
Peace
M
minkymurph
Guest
As I understand ‘Once Saved always Saved’ from a friend of mine. Once you are ‘saved,’ if I understand her view correctly, means you accept Christ as your saviour and the Holy Spirit enters you, you are forgiven for all future sins and it is not possible for you to reject God. Her thoughts are of course very much linked in with pre-destination, which to my understanding is an interpretation of Romans 9. I would have a different interpretation of Romans 9. Therefore, putting pre-destination to one side, where in the Bible is does it say that once the Holy Spirit enters, you are forgiven all future sins and you cannot reject God?
J
justasking4
Guest
If you read church history there has always been different kinds of beliefs. Even in the Catholic church today there are different beliefs.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Martin_Luther.jpg
Martin Luther
http://www.nycphantom.com/store/JohnCalvin.jpg%between%
John Calvin
http://www.royal.gov.uk/files/images/Insight_May04_Mailbox_HenryVIII_large.jpg
King Henry VIII
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/James_I,_VI_by_John_de_Critz,_c.1606..png%between%
King James I
http://anglicanhistory.org/wesley/jwesley.jpg
John Wesley
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ness.jpg/485px-George_Whitefield_likeness.jpg%between%
George Whitefield
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Egw1899info.jpg%between%
Ellen White
Religion…, Religions…, or beliefs of “men”….
Protestant, non-Catholic Christians today, are the followers of other… Protestant, non-Catholic Christians and that is where their beliefs can be found.
Yet for some reason, many here act like they “figured it all out” on their own…they didn’t.
These are seven people (pictured above) who thought that they were “right” and that everyone else who preceded them was wrong…wrong about something “Christian”…wrong about an interpretation. This is why the Protestant doctrine of “Personal Interpretation" is so wrong…it has been a disaster and the cause of divisions and sub-divisions of Christianity.
There isn’t enough room here, to list all of the “men” (and women) that started their own, non-Catholic Christian denomination, or had “their say”, or came up with “something new”, or tried to re-invent Christianity, this has been going on for more than 500 years now.
There is a face, a human face, behind every “new” Protestant, non-Catholic Christian ideal, interpretation, denomination and belief.
When I read posts here, where people write that the Catholic Church is an institution, “created by men” and that the Catholic Church is “wrong” about, this or that, I just smile and shake my head.
Would someone here, please explain why there is more than one Christian religion. Isn’t it because non-Catholic, Protestant Christians cannot make up their mind, whose beliefs it is that they want to follow?
Peace
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Your question presupposes we agree that we are following a certain person. However, I did like the picture of Luther you foundhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Martin_Luther.jpg
Martin Luther
Yet for some reason, many here act like they “figured it all out” on their own…they didn’t.
These are seven people (pictured above) who thought that they were “right” and that everyone else who preceded them was wrong…wrong about something “Christian”…wrong about an interpretation. This is why the Protestant doctrine of “Personal Interpretation" is so wrong…it has been a disaster and the cause of divisions and sub-divisions of Christianity.
There isn’t enough room here, to list all of the “men” (and women) that started their own, non-Catholic Christian denomination, or had “their say”, or came up with “something new”, or tried to re-invent Christianity, this has been going on for more than 500 years now.
There is a face, a human face, behind every “new” Protestant, non-Catholic Christian ideal, interpretation, denomination and belief.
When I read posts here, where people write that the Catholic Church is an institution, “created by men” and that the Catholic Church is “wrong” about, this or that, I just smile and shake my head.
Would someone here, please explain why there is more than one Christian religion. Isn’t it because non-Catholic, Protestant Christians cannot make up their mind, whose beliefs it is that they want to follow?
Peace
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
He was a heretic because he was a full blown Pelagian.
The Second Great Awakening started the modern revivalism methods and marketing strategies that the church is plagued with.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
I know… and I’m glad that you like the picture of Martin LutherYour question presupposes we agree that we are following a certain person. However, I did like the picture of Luther you found
…but you appreciate the point I was making…right?Peace
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Yes, I do. One has to examine each of these individuals and what distinguished them from each other. Take Calvin, for example (he’s a mutual punching bag for Lutherans and Catholics). He taught that the real presence is not real, and that baptism doesn’t save. Had the Catholic Church ever taught that before? Or double predestination? Ellen White taught that the Sabbath is still on Saturday. Had the Catholic Church ever taught that? King Henry stated he was the head of the Church of England. Had the Catholic Church ever taught that?I know… and I’m glad that you like the picture of Martin Luther
Peace
All of those are rhetorical, of course.
(I enjoy your posts, Jimmy…at least you can maintain a sense of humor. Few can do that around here
)
po18guy
Well-known member
Not taught as part of the deposit of faith. Some don’t believe, and some don’t follow the teaching. Some left Jesus in John 6:66. By what process do you think your faith tradition came about? I’m with my bro’ Jimmy here.
G
guanophore
Guest
No, ja4. I cannot tell if this is a lie that you have been taught, or one you made up, but either way, it is a lie.
Human beings naturally born into a fallen state. Baptism transfers us from this state to adoption as Sons and Daughters of God. Naturally, we are His “offspring” (creation - made in His image and likeness). When we are born of water and spirit, we are transformed from the Kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of Light.
G
guanophore
Guest
Yes, every individual reflects individual beliefs. However, there is one unified Catholic Teaching. Those who adhere to that Teaching are Catholics in good standing. I think the majority of “catholics” are not in good standing, because they reject one or more of the Apostolic Teachings.
I know it seems to serve you, ja4, to try to find dissention among Catholics, but this ploy will not succeed. In spite of your apparent belief to the contrary, Jesus really did keep His promise to lead the Apostles into all Truth. He can, did, does and will preserve His Bride in purity, and prevent her from error.
po18guy
Well-known member
Since Luther’s teaching varied from that of the church, essentially his followers were following… him. Oh, Christ was the reason, but they sought Luther to come closer to God.I know… and I’m glad that you like the picture of Martin Luther
Peace
Kinda like Mary except for the lack of immaculate conception, huh?
Christ’s peace.
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
OSAS is an erroneous understanding of perseverance of the saints, the latter a doctrine I hold to.
Here is the proper view on this matter:
Perseverance of the Saints does not mean “once saved always saved”. This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the doctrine. “Once saved always saved” is more keenly given the name “Perseverance of the sinner” instead of “the saint”. For it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, do whatever he wants, and then still “persevere to the end”. Perseverance of the saints does not teach this. Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end.
apuritansmind.com/TULIP/PerseveranceOfTheSaints.htm
John 6:37-39, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
Phil. 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
1 Thess. 5:23-24, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”
2 Tim. 4:18, “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
1 Peter 1:23, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
Ephesians 2:10, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Here is the proper view on this matter:
Perseverance of the Saints does not mean “once saved always saved”. This corruption of the doctrine has been popular in recent years, but has never been a true representation of the doctrine. “Once saved always saved” is more keenly given the name “Perseverance of the sinner” instead of “the saint”. For it teaches that man can be saved by Christ and then sin habitually, do whatever he wants, and then still “persevere to the end”. Perseverance of the saints does not teach this. Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end.
apuritansmind.com/TULIP/PerseveranceOfTheSaints.htm
John 6:37-39, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
Phil. 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
1 Thess. 5:23-24, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”
2 Tim. 4:18, “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
1 Peter 1:23, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
Ephesians 2:10, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
Why not let the history speak for itself:
n 1516-17, Johann Tetzel, a Dominican friar and papal commissioner for indulgences, was sent to Germany by the Roman Catholic Church to sell indulgences to raise money to rebuild St Peter’s Basilica in Rome.[32] Roman Catholic theology stated that faith alone, whether fiduciary or dogmatic, cannot justify man[33]; and that only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides caritate formata) can justify man.[34] These good works could be obtained by donating money to the church.
On October 31, 1517, Luther wrote to Albrecht, Archbishop of Mainz and Magdeburg, protesting the sale of indulgences. He enclosed in his letter a copy of his “Disputation of Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences,” which came to be known as The 95 Theses. Hans Hillerbrand writes that Luther had no intention of confronting the church, but saw his disputation as a scholarly objection to church practices, and the tone of the writing is accordingly “searching, rather than doctrinaire.”[35] Hillerbrand writes that there is nevertheless an undercurrent of challenge in several of the theses, particularly in Thesis 86, which asks: “Why does the pope, whose wealth today is greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build the basilica of St. Peter with the money of poor believers rather than with his own money?”[35]
Luther objected to a saying attributed to Johann Tetzel that “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs,”[36] insisting that, since forgiveness was God’s alone to grant, those who claimed that indulgences absolved buyers from all punishments and granted them salvation were in error. Christians, he said, must not slacken in following Christ on account of such false assurances.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther#Indulgences.2C_controversy_and_the_start_of_the_Reformation
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello sola_scriptura,
You gave two explanations of OSAS, which essentially mean the same thing, that is; that a person who is “Saved” will no longer sin. Both semantical arguments given, are confusing, defy any understanding of the human condition and free-will and are both non-biblical and in error.
OSAS is anti—biblical and anti-Christian and doesn’t make any logical sense. OSAS, wrongly assumes that one’s Salvation, prior to Final Judgment…. has been predetermined, hence, assuming God’s role prior to God’s Final Judgment.
This is the problem with “personal interpretation of the Bible”….”match the verse to the belief”. This process will unfortunately, lead many to the loss of their Salvation… it won’t”Save” them…
I don’t believe that God is going to allow us to have a slick; defense attorney to make semanical arguments on our behalf, during our Final Judgment…
Please try again…thank you.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello sola_scriptura,
You gave two explanations of OSAS, which essentially mean the same thing, that is; that a person who is “Saved” will no longer sin. Both semantical arguments given, are confusing, defy any understanding of the human condition and free-will and are both non-biblical and in error.
OSAS is anti—biblical and anti-Christian and doesn’t make any logical sense. OSAS, wrongly assumes that one’s Salvation, prior to Final Judgment…. has been predetermined, hence, assuming God’s role prior to God’s Final Judgment.
This is the problem with “personal interpretation of the Bible”….”match the verse to the belief”. This process will unfortunately, lead many to the loss of their Salvation… it won’t”Save” them…
I don’t believe that God is going to allow us to have a slick; defense attorney to make semanical arguments on our behalf, during our Final Judgment…
Please try again…thank you.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
**sola_scriptura, **
Do you believe that Catholics are OSAS?
Do you believe that Catholics are OSAS?
M
minkymurph
Guest
Question on Calvin; what led him to conclude that the real presence is not real and that baptism doesn’t save? I assume he had a reason. Did he dismiss these teachings on the basis of pre-destination?
E
estesbob
Guest
Individual Catholics may well have different beleifs. The Church, however does not.
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