“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

[backfrmthebrink]

cazayoux: if once saved always saved is an error of understanding in scripture then reconcile this for me…Paul who taught that exact point (see galations, Romans etc and also John. If you are not saved by works then how can you rely on works to keep you saved. The act of doing or not doing is a work. Grace is Gods answer to mans human sin nature. It cannot rely on man in any part or it will fail. It has to be entirely God to succeed. You are correct in that in the prostant circles there is much debate over this. Calvin vs arminian for example however have you ever studied any Chafer’s writings?

 

[Jimmy_B]

“I am saddened that you cannot yet see the turth. What is certain is that someday you will from one side or the other. I happen to know what side i will be on as the Bible and Christ’s Church has taught me that”
Distracted. The difference between you and I is that I do DO know where I will go but for you to say that as in the above quote from you, for a catholic is a “sin of presumption” look it up

Assurance of Salvation?:

Please read-

Matthew 7:21, 24:13
Romans 11:22
Philippians 2:12
1 Corinthians 9:27, 10:11-12
Galatians 5:4
2 Timothy 2:11-13
Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-27

Peace

---

 

[distracted]

have you ever studied any Chafer’s writings?

Is Chafer in the Bible??

 

[Jimmy_B]

Is Chafer in the Bible??

Great question!

 

[backfrmthebrink]

Good response. While posts like backfrmthebrink’s may give people a warm fuzzy, they don’t really accomplish anything. You demonstrated that nicely.

Well I have never been accused of causing a warm fuzzy. Interesting tactic. You would learn only if you had ears to hear

 

[backfrmthebrink]

Is Chafer in the Bible??

Yeah the books of Lewis

 

[backfrmthebrink]

cazayoux;3898231:

Seems like lots of men on earth were being called ‘father’, either biologically or otherwise.

So what sense do we make of Matthew 23:9?

Christ was engaging in hyperbole, as he often did, and attacked the MISUSE or ABUSE of the title “father.” He was specifically talking about the Pharisees who

Jesus was a faithful Jew and he certainly wasn’t condemning the mere use of the title “Rabbi” which means “Master” or “Teacher” – a title still used by Jewish people today. He was specifically condemning the improper use of the title for the Pharisees who were hypocrites “for they SAY, but DO not” (Matthew 23:3 KJV).

michel

I like your explination of that I believe He was referring to a “spiritual father” different from teacher and Rabbi. I will chew on your explination as well

 

[Jimmy_B]

cazayoux: if once saved always saved is an error of understanding in scripture then reconcile this for me…Paul who taught that exact point (see galations, Romans etc and also John. If you are not saved by works then how can you rely on works to keep you saved. The act of doing or not doing is a work. Grace is Gods answer to mans human sin nature. It cannot rely on man in any part or it will fail. It has to be entirely God to succeed. You are correct in that in the prostant circles there is much debate over this. Calvin vs arminian for example however have you ever studied any Chafer’s writings?

Hello** backfrmthebrink**,

Do you believe that there exists conflict in the Bible, where one Bible verse conflicts with another? You must, in order to hold to the beliefs that you have, right?

There is No conflict in the Bible, when read and understood in context.

Your thoughts?

Peace

 

[cazayoux]

cazayoux: if once saved always saved is an error of understanding in scripture then reconcile this for me…Paul who taught that exact point (see galations, Romans etc and also John. If you are not saved by works then how can you rely on works to keep you saved. The act of doing or not doing is a work. Grace is Gods answer to mans human sin nature. It cannot rely on man in any part or it will fail. It has to be entirely God to succeed. You are correct in that in the prostant circles there is much debate over this. Calvin vs arminian for example however have you ever studied any Chafer’s writings?

If possible, please give the quotes you refer to. It helps the discussion.

And let’s look at more points that Paul taught.

Ephesians 2:8-9:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.”

AMEN! As a Catholic, I agree 100% with this.
Grace is a free gift from God… I think we agree.

But are we required to DO anything with this free gift that God gives us?

So we need to square the quote above with the following.

James 2:24: “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

The following shows us that our faith is incomplete *by itself.
*

JAMES 2:14: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?”

No, because

James 2:26
“For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

I love this relationship given.
body = faith
spirit = works

So works seems to be necessary.
Not that it *buys *our way into heaven, but is a necessary cooperation of the gift of grace.
Catholics don’t look at faith and works as an either/or, but a both.

James 2 has much more to say on this very topic.

As far as an *assurance * of salvation …

Paul says the following to people that are already Christian

Phil 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

This does not sound like he is giving them the assurance that OSAS claims to give.

As well, Paul himself didn’t write as though he himself was assured of salvation.

1 Cor 9:26-27
Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

This shows that works has SOMETHING to do with salvation.
We can delve into this more if you like.

This also shows that salvation is something to be hoped for, and worked on, not assured.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Yeah the books of Lewis

uhh … play on words?

Lewis Chafer = Lu-cifer

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello** backfrmthebrink**,

Do you believe that there exists conflict in the Bible, where one Bible verse conflicts with another? You must, in order to hold to the beliefs that you have, right?

There is No conflict in the Bible, when read and understood in context.

Your thoughts?

Peace

 

[distracted]

Paul says the following to people that are already Christian

he didn’t even consider that he himself was “saved” permanently… o… you mention that below… :hypno:

This does not sound like he is giving them the assurance that OSAS claims to give.

As well, Paul himself didn’t write as though he himself was assured of salvation.

This shows that works has SOMETHING to do with salvation.
We can delve into this more if you like.

This also shows that salvation is something to be hoped for, and worked on, not assured.

michel

One of the best scriptures that refutes OSAS is st. Matthew 25;31-46…

How can a person say he is “saved” when/if he doesn’t do anything to make the world a more christian place?? What if a person became a Christian and yet did not care whether others became Christians… didn’t evangelize, as the Church teaches us we must… just lived for himself, acquiring wealth, etc, etc… He or she would just be livin like a heathen… what good would it do his soul or anyone else’s. He would get caught up in the things of the world… and Jesus told us to give up everything and follow Him (St. Mark 10:17)…

 

[distracted]

OSAS seems to me to be comparable to a one-sided marriage where one person loves the other unconditoinally but the other one’s love is… less than perfect to say the least. True, we will never love like God does… But what would it be like to be married to someone who just does whatever he / she wants, presuming on the fact that the other “loves me anyway”… regardless…

Its like a husband saying to his wife “I love you, i love you”… but he won’t give up his other women, won’t come home at night and spend time with his family, etc…

If a human being wouldn’t put up with this for long, why should God??

The Bible says that God is a “jealous” God… He wants us all to himself… ALL… not just an hour on Sunday giving him lip-service…

 

[cazayoux]

… and Jesus told us to give up everything and follow Him (St. Mark 10:17)…

EXACTLY.
There is MUCH that scripture says is required.
It’s like you want to go on a car trip.
One guy tells you that you’ll require a car.
… and later on, another tells you you’ll need gas.
… first guy now says you need a map.
… and later says you need tires.

OSAS is likened to someone saying…
“That guy said if I want to go on a road trip, I need a car. So that is all I need.”

We need to look at the rest of the things that scripture said is necessary, not just one thing that is necessary.

I posted this before, but I’ll do it again.
As a Catholic, I believe what the Bible says in terms of what one must do in order to get to Heaven –
**Have **faith (Rom 3:28, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15)
**forgive **the sins of others (Matt 6:14-15)
**care **for one’s family (1 Tim 5:8)
**feed **the hungry, **clothe **the naked, **visit **the sick and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46)
**keep **the Commandments (Matt 19:17 and 1 John 2:3-4)
**love **my brother (1 John 2:10)
**deny **ourselves and **pick **up our cross daily (Luke 9:23)
**do **the will of the Father (Matt 7:21)
**eat **the flesh and **drink **the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58)
**give **a return for the talents the Master has given us (Matt 25:14-30)
**be **baptized (John 3:3-5, 1 Ptr 3:20-21)
confess our sins (1 John 1:9)
…all by the grace of God.

There are a lot of action words in there.
Faith IS important, but it’s not the only important thing.
Note that one of the action words above is ‘love’.

backfrmthebrink … Answer the following for me.

What is more important, faith or love?

michel

 

[distracted]

EXACTLY.
There is MUCH that scripture says is required.
It’s like you want to go on a car trip.
One guy tells you that you’ll require a car.
… and later on, another tells you you’ll need gas.
… first guy now says you need a map.
… and later says you need tires.

OSAS is likened to someone saying…
“That guy said if I want to go on a road trip, I need a car. So that is all I need.”

Good point… never thought of it that way…

 

[distracted]

Yeah the books of Lewis

If you, even if accidentally, broke someone’s window… someone you say you love, would you just go up to him/her and say “Hey, I’m really sorry about the window…” and walk away, promptly forgetting about it… going about doing what you feel like doing… and leave the window as is??

Well, again, if a human person wouldn’t “appreciate this” kind of thing… this kind of presumption and lack of true love on your part… why would God?

 

[backfrmthebrink]

Hello** backfrmthebrink**,

Do you believe that there exists conflict in the Bible, where one Bible verse conflicts with another? You must, in order to hold to the beliefs that you have, right?

There is No conflict in the Bible, when read and understood in context.

Your thoughts?

Peace

No I don’t believe the Bible contradicts itself at all. I believe however that there is a seperate word for Israel and for the Church, I do believe in certain dispensational aspects as well and in that I have found no contradictions. I am glad you do not either but why do you assume I do???

 

[backfrmthebrink]

If you, even if accidentally, broke someone’s window… someone you say you love, would you just go up to him/her and say “Hey, I’m really sorry about the window…” and walk away, promptly forgetting about it… going about doing what you feel like doing… and leave the window as is??

Well, again, if a human person wouldn’t “appreciate this” kind of thing… this kind of presumption and lack of true love on your part… why would God?

I am confused. Is this a response to the Chafer comment?

 

[Filius99993]

No I don’t believe the Bible contradicts itself at all. I believe however that there is a seperate word for Israel and for the Church, I do believe in certain dispensational aspects as well and in that I have found no contradictions. I am glad you do not either but why do you assume I do???

Oh, but the Bible does contradict itself. Look into the different accounts of Judas’ death in the gospels.

 

[backfrmthebrink]

backfrmthebrink … Answer the following for me.

What is more important, faith or love?

michel
That is a tough question is it not. Without faith you will not be saved correct? But the Word tell us that the greatest “gift” is love. All I can say is that the longer I have been a believer the more softer my heart has become and the more I love. how about you?