“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

[justasking4]

guanophore;3975016]This statement simply makes no sense. There was no collection at the time of Christ called the Old Testament!

Did Jesus believe that the writings you allude to below–“sacred writings called the Law, the Psalms and the Prophets, and the Writings” the Word of God?

There was a collection of sacred writings called the Law, the Psalms and the Prophets, and the Writings. There were various sects of Jews that rejected parts of them. The Protestants later accepted the collection determined by those who rejected Christ, removing books that He and the Apostles used.

The Church did not promulgate what came to be known as the “Old Testament” for nearly 400 years after Christ!

And the reason for this is because the Church was given the Authority by Christ to declare them so!

Yes, I agree. the Holy Spirit does not lead the people of God into division. Where divisions exist, it is because people are not hearing and following the Spirit.

 

[MrS]

There are also many protestant beliefs that have not changed either.

The Catholic Church disciplines often change.
Non-catholic faith communities are what they are because of changes and for changes… not in spite of them

Would you happen to have a couple of examples?

Disciplines like eating meat on Fridays, celebrating Ascension Thursday on Sunday, vigil Mass allowed earlier on Saturdays,

Each faith communities that was formed by Catholics leaving the Catholic Church changed major Doctrine in their “membership rules”. The Real Presence, Infallibility, Baptism, etc.

Not to mention the understandings of contraception, divorce’re-marriage, abortion etc.

The Catholic Church has been uniform and unchanging in these things. The non-catholic faith communities are formed because of disagreement on one or many Catholic beliefs. One of the few things they all have in common is rejection of Catholic Beliefs.

 

[justasking4]

Disciplines like eating meat on Fridays, celebrating Ascension Thursday on Sunday, vigil Mass allowed earlier on Saturdays,

Each faith communities that was formed by Catholics leaving the Catholic Church changed major Doctrine in their “membership rules”. The Real Presence, Infallibility, Baptism, etc.

Not to mention the understandings of contraception, divorce’re-marriage, abortion etc.

The Catholic Church has been uniform and unchanging in these things. The non-catholic faith communities are formed because of disagreement on one or many Catholic beliefs. One of the few things they all have in common is rejection of Catholic Beliefs.

I suppose some protestant churches split over some disagreements. The only one i’m aware of is what is happening in Anglican church. Do you know of others?

The splits i’m aware of are due to starting churches in other parts of the city or world with the same beliefs intact.

 

[KingAlfred]

Here’s a brief ‘probation officer’ story (I’m not in that line of work anymore):

Had a defendant on felony probation for arson. He was also on misdemeanor probation for something else, AND on parole, after having just been released from the state penitentiary. He was only 24 years old, but had a rap-sheet as long as my arm. He also had an Attorney General arrest warrant chasing him down, for failing to pay child support for his two or three kids, each with a different woman.

When he first reported to me after getting out of jail, he thundered into my tiny office (he was at least 6’5" and 300 pounds), thrust his football-sized hand out to shake mine, and shouted, "Praise the Lord, I am SAVED." It took me a good five minutes or so to settle him down and get him back on track, e.g., to stop talking about religion. Point? OSAS Christianity thrives in prison and jails more than anywhere in America. Unfortunately, it doesn’t do much good in terms of turning criminals away from crime.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Here’s a brief ‘probation officer’ story (I’m not in that line of work anymore):

Had a defendant on felony probation for arson. He was also on misdemeanor probation for something else, AND on parole, after having just been released from the state penitentiary. He was only 24 years old, but had a rap-sheet as long as my arm. He also had an Attorney General arrest warrant chasing him down, for failing to pay child support for his two or three kids, each with a different woman.

When he first reported to me after getting out of jail, he thundered into my tiny office (he was at least 6’5" and 300 pounds), thrust his football-sized hand out to shake mine, and shouted, "Praise the Lord, I am SAVED." It took me a good five minutes or so to settle him down and get him back on track, e.g., to stop talking about religion. Point? OSAS Christianity thrives in prison and jails more than anywhere in America. Unfortunately, it doesn’t do much good in terms of turning criminals away from crime.

Hello KingAlfred,

Excellent post, I have had similar experiences and I agree with your comments here.

The problem is with the “always“ part of OSAS, they don’t “always” seem to be “always saved”…do they?

I am sure that someone here, will now offer a semantical argument, which will not make any sence… to explain why this happens…

Peace

 

[KingAlfred]

Hello KingAlfred,

Excellent post, I have had similar experiences and I agree with your comments here.

The problem is with the “always“ part of OSAS, they don’t “always” seem to be “always saved”…do they?

I am sure that someone here, will now offer a semantical argument, which will not make any sence… to explain why this happens…

Peace

Yeah…OSAS is the pinnacle of superstition, IMO. To manipulate Biblical passages to the extent of arriving at a theology that says one doesn’t have to *live *the faith, but only say “I believe”, and then forget about one’s actions, is totally irresponsible and indicative of a silly belief in *magic. *

 

[Filius99993]

Yeah…OSAS is the pinnacle of superstition, IMO. To manipulate Biblical passages to the extent of arriving at a theology that says one doesn’t have to *live *the faith, but only say “I believe”, and then forget about one’s actions, is totally irresponsible and indicative of a silly belief in *magic. *

I wouldn’t call it magic, Al, (if you may let me call you that) but it is very foolish for anyone to believe they are going to heaven simply because they believe they are. (What a circular thought) “Faith without works is dead”, eh?

 

[jrssls]

you can’t be lost here…c’mon. we’ll pray for you. the closest you can get to the father, son and holy spirit is through blessed virgin mary (luke 1:48) and let the pope feed the sheep (john 21:17). GOD bless and prayers to all!

Give me a break. That’s not true at all.

 

[jrssls]

Sorry, all the church teaches is not in the Bible. Suggesting that I’m talking about anything in the Bible is bordering on dishonesty. It is quite evident that I am referring to all the ‘extra’ teachings that the church has come up with over nearly 2000 years.

Jesus’ yoke is easy and light, but the Catholic church’s isn’t. That’s why I’m not becoming Catholic. The Magesterium is exactly like the Pharisees that Jesus condemned in his day.

Isn’t that the truth!

 

[estesbob]

Isn’t that the truth!

If it’s the truth why did it take 1500 years for someone to figure it out?

 

[jrssls]

When I worked as a felony probation officer, I noticed that OSAS was the preferred ‘jail-house’ religion of most religious offenders. It was so common it actually became the source of cynical jokes about career offenders. Their lives were committed to OSAS Christianity whenever they were locked up, but to crime, whenever they weren’t.

That’s what they call a backslider. If you were saved once and have fallen into sin. When I say sin, I mean you know what you are doing is wrong and refuse to change your ways and you keep fallen into sin over and over again, knowing what you are doing is wrong and then all of a sudden, they want to change their life. They have to recommit their life to Christ again and ask for forgiveness. That is why OSAS is a false doctrine.

 

[jrssls]

:clapping:
EXACTLY !!!

You’ve made my point for me.
The Trinity was not yet a part of the TRADITION clearly taught.
The Magesterium, with the authority of the apostles, settled the matter and defined the doctrine of the divinity.
NOW it is a part of TRADITION.

Now … was the Trinity true before it was defined at this council?
Yes, it has always been the truth, but the understanding of it was clarified by the Church.

In other words, the Church didn’t *make *new rules or doctrines, but clarified the teaching.

michel

Just take off your blinders and you’ll see the truth.

 

[distracted]

Give me a break. That’s not true at all.

you don’t believe in motherhood…? you don’t believe in the power of the mother of Jesus Christ himself?

She is also your mother (Jesus gave her to John & thereby to all of us… when he was dying on the Cross).

 

[jrssls]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckempston View Post
I’ll just stick to one: bowing to anyone/anything on earth, :

if you bowing to someone forces you to commit the sin of idolatry, worshipping another human being, then you have got serious problems… I could kiss the pope’s hand all day long and i still would not consider him God… (I am a devout, practicing, card-carrying, Mary-loving Catholic).

You are contradicting yourself. Because you are bowing and worshiping the Pope and other Idols. Tell me, do you ask the saints and Mary to pray for you? Because they can’t pray for you. You can only pray to Jesus yourself.

 

[jrssls]

you don’t believe in motherhood…? you don’t believe in the power of the mother of Jesus Christ himself?

She is also your mother (Jesus gave her to John & thereby to all of us… when he was dying on the Cross).

I don’t believe in Her power. Only in the Power of Jesus Christ. She was a mother to Him. Don’t make her more than that.

 

[MrS]

I don’t believe in Her power. Only in the Power of Jesus Christ. She was a mother to Him. Don’t make her more than that.

And Who is Him… Jesus the Christ, God

She is the Mother of God… don’t make her less than that.

.

 

[distracted]

Quote:
do you ask the saints and Mary to pray for you? Because they can’t pray for you. You can only pray to Jesus yourself.

i love praying to the saints… they know what it is like to be a human being & to follow Christ, to give all to him and for him… I like to have … & feel i need role models like that… For one thing, those kinds of role models are rare on EArth… unforrtunately…

Also… we are called to be on good terms with human beings… (as long as we don’t compromise the faith) . What better way to do that than to talk to humans who have “made it”? The saints are the “great cloud of witnesses” spoken of in Scriputre…

 

[distracted]

I don’t believe in Her power. Only in the Power of Jesus Christ. She was a mother to Him. Don’t make her more than that.

What if Jesus wanted you to make something more of her? Would you?

 

[t68ware]

Let me throw my two cents in…There are many fine Christian people who believe in OSAS. I do not. However, if you have ever heard of Dr. Charles Stanley, he is a very big believer in that doctrine, and he can defend it point for point against any Protestant or Catholic. His ministry is also world wide and God blesses him greatly, so it makes one wonder if he is such a false teacher of doctrine, why is God blessing him? Or look at Billy Graham. I am sure he does not believe in everything the Church teaches, and he does believe in personal interpretation of the Bible, yet his ministry in unmatched in the world today. I think we should be very careful before we call Protestant doctrines “magic” or belittle them. While some doctrines are not believed by the Catholic Church, there is no doubt that God does work through these doctrines to bring others to Christ.

 

[estesbob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckempston View Post
I’ll just stick to one: bowing to anyone/anything on earth, :

You are contradicting yourself. Because you are bowing and worshiping the Pope and other Idols. Tell me, do you ask the saints and Mary to pray for you? Because they can’t pray for you. You can only pray to Jesus yourself.

Where did you get the idea that Catholics worship thePope and idols? Do know how foolish it makes you look when you come to these forums and make such absurd comments?

I take it it you have never in your life asked someone to pray for you?