“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

[jrssls]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrssls View Post
Quote:
do you ask the saints and Mary to pray for you? Because they can’t pray for you. You can only pray to Jesus yourself.

i love praying to the saints… they know what it is like to be a human being & to follow Christ, to give all to him and for him… I like to have … & feel i need role models like that… For one thing, those kinds of role models are rare on EArth… unforrtunately…

Also… we are called to be on good terms with human beings… (as long as we don’t compromise the faith) . What better way to do that than to talk to humans who have “made it”? The saints are the “great cloud of witnesses” spoken of in Scriputre…

That is why you pray to JESUS!!! He knows exactly what you’re going through. Remember He lived here on earth. He knows exactly what you need. Hence, my saying, pray to Jesus, no one else. No one else can answer your prayers, only HIM.

 

[estesbob]

Let me throw my two cents in…There are many fine Christian people who believe in OSAS. I do not. However, if you have ever heard of Dr. Charles Stanley, he is a very big believer in that doctrine, and he can defend it point for point against any Protestant or Catholic. His ministry is also world wide and God blesses him greatly, so it makes one wonder if he is such a false teacher of doctrine, why is God blessing him? Or look at Billy Graham. I am sure he does not believe in everything the Church teaches, and he does believe in personal interpretation of the Bible, yet his ministry in unmatched in the world today. I think we should be very careful before we call Protestant doctrines “magic” or belittle them. While some doctrines are not believed by the Catholic Church, there is no doubt that God does work through these doctrines to bring others to Christ.

God works through false doctrines to bring people to Christ???

Just because somebody is rich does not mean God has blessed them. The Prosperity gospel is another bastardization of Chrisitanity that so muddles the message that it is nearly unrecognizable

 

[distracted]

Dr. Charles Stanley, he is a very big believer in that doctrine, and he can defend it point for point against any Protestant or Catholic. His ministry is also world wide and God blesses him greatly, so it makes one wonder if he is such a false teacher of doctrine, why is God blessing him? Or look at Billy Graham. I am sure he does not believe in everything the Church teaches, and he does believe in personal interpretation of the Bible, yet his ministry in unmatched in the world today. t.

you operate under the erroneous assumption that material blessings are, indeed, blessings… Has it ever occurred to you that they are actualy a curse? Money, having a lot of it… leads to - guess what? Wanting more… Human nature… Jesus didn’t own anything… He told us to GIVE UP EVerything & follow him (St. Mark 10:17)… It is harder for the rich to get into Heaven becauese they don’t wnat to give up their “heaven” on Earth…

Whatever keeps you from getting to Heaven should be seen as a curse, not a blessing… If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off & cast it from you…

 

[jrssls]

Let me throw my two cents in…There are many fine Christian people who believe in OSAS. I do not. However, if you have ever heard of Dr. Charles Stanley, he is a very big believer in that doctrine, and he can defend it point for point against any Protestant or Catholic. His ministry is also world wide and God blesses him greatly, so it makes one wonder if he is such a false teacher of doctrine, why is God blessing him? Or look at Billy Graham. I am sure he does not believe in everything the Church teaches, and he does believe in personal interpretation of the Bible, yet his ministry in unmatched in the world today. I think we should be very careful before we call Protestant doctrines “magic” or belittle them. While some doctrines are not believed by the Catholic Church, there is no doubt that God does work through these doctrines to bring others to Christ.

Dr. Charles Stanley, does not believe in OSAS. Read about his ministry and you’ll understand him better. Yes, he does believe in being born-again. OSAS is a total different doctrine. Also, I’d watch what you say about these great men of faith. They preach and teach the truth. Don’t misconstrue their beliefs, when you have no idea what these men are about.

 

[t68ware]

God works through false doctrines to bring people to Christ???

Just because somebody is rich does not mean God has blessed them. The Prosperity gospel is another bastardization of Chrisitanity that so muddles the message that it is nearly unrecognizable

I did not say these men believe in the prosperity Gospel nor was anything said about them being rich. What I did say was God does bless their ministries, and since their doctrines don’t fall lock-step with the Catholic doctrines, one has to ponder why God is blessing them.

 

[t68ware]

Dr. Charles Stanley, does not believe in OSAS. Read about his ministry and you’ll understand him better. Yes, he does believe in being born-again. OSAS is a total different doctrine. Also, I’d watch what you say about these great men of faith. They preach and teach the truth. Don’t misconstrue their beliefs, when you have no idea what these men are about.

I am very aware who these gentlemen are, and Dr. Stanley believes in eternal security. His website may not state it point blank, but listen to him preach, which I have, on a daily basis. OSAS and eternal security are the same doctine, just worded differently. He is a Calvinist to the core, which is fine with me, but as a Calvanist, he holds the belief of eternal security. Please don’t assume I have no idea who these preachers are.

 

[t68ware]

you operate under the erroneous assumption that material blessings are, indeed, blessings… Has it ever occurred to you that they are actualy a curse? Money, having a lot of it… leads to - guess what? Wanting more… Human nature… Jesus didn’t own anything… He told us to GIVE UP EVerything & follow him (St. Mark 10:17)… It is harder for the rich to get into Heaven becauese they don’t wnat to give up their “heaven” on Earth…

Whatever keeps you from getting to Heaven should be seen as a curse, not a blessing… If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off & cast it from you…

Once again, nothing was said by me about material blessings. God blesses them by the growth of their ministries and souls being won by Christ. Who can dispute that as a blessing?

 

[MrS]

I am very aware who these gentlemen are, and Dr. Stanley believes in eternal security. His website may not state it point blank, but listen to him preach, which I have, on a daily basis. OSAS and eternal security are the same doctine, just worded differently. He is a Calvinist to the core, which is fine with me, but as a Calvanist, he holds the belief of eternal security. Please don’t assume I have no idea who these preachers are.

Yes a lot of what they preach has some value to those who listen. The fact that they reject Catholicism is another matter. In doing so, they miss the fullness of the Faith found only in the Church established by Jesus.

You will not hear either preacher use the evidence of the Early Church Fathers, or the facts of history to build their claims… because they cannot.

Dr Stanley may be of high intelligence, but facts are facts… he has not authority to “…Feed My sheep…”

nor as Billy Graham.

.

 

[estesbob]

I did not say these men believe in the prosperity Gospel nor was anything said about them being rich. What I did say was God does bless their ministries, and since their doctrines don’t fall lock-step with the Catholic doctrines, one has to ponder why God is blessing them.

His Docrines arent even supported by Scripture or Tradition more or less not in lock step with Catholic Docrine. You keep saying God has blessed his ministreis. How do you know?

 

[t68ware]

His Docrines arent even supported by Scripture or Tradition more or less not in lock step with Catholic Docrine. You keep saying God has blessed his ministreis. How do you know?

The people they help win to Christ, the good works their ministries do with positive fruit, the example of their godly lives…how can anyone say those are not blessings by God? I am sure if they said the sky was blue, somebody would find something wrong with that statement, so sadly, anything said positive will result in something negative being said. Very sad indeed.

 

[estesbob]

The people they help win to Christ, the good works their ministries do with positive fruit, the example of their godly lives…how can anyone say those are not blessings by God? I am sure if they said the sky was blue, somebody would find something wrong with that statement, so sadly, anything said positive will result in something negative being said. Very sad indeed.

You have no idea whether they are winning people for Christ or not. Teaching people false, simplistic unsupportable doctrines does not win them for anyone-in fact it imperils their immortal soul.

 

[t68ware]

You have no idea whether they are winning people for Christ or not. Teaching people false, simplistic unsupportable doctrines does not win them for anyone-in fact it imperils their immortal soul.

Watch a Frankin Graham Evangelistic program, then get back to me.

 

[estesbob]

Watch a Frankin Graham Evangelistic program, then get back to me.

Why? I have wathced Dr Graham preach many timnes-very uplifting but in the end he is preaching false doctrines

 

[MrS]

Why? I have wathced Dr Graham preach many timnes-very uplifting but in the end he is preaching false doctrines

well… not always… but he is far from the fullness of Truth.

I have been uplifted by a praise and worship concert… so

I have been uplifted by a visit from some (not many) JWs and Mormons…so

 

[t68ware]

Why? I have wathced Dr Graham preach many timnes-very uplifting but in the end he is preaching false doctrines

Do you think when Billy Graham met with John Paul II the Holy Father said something like “Now Billy, you have to stop preaching such false doctrine and sending people to hell because you are such a false teacher?” Or something like that? Interesting the Holy Father had very nice things to say about Billy but you just want to label him a teacher of false doctrine.

 

[estesbob]

Do you think when Billy Graham met with John Paul II the Holy Father said something like “Now Billy, you have to stop preaching such false doctrine and sending people to hell because you are such a false teacher?” Or something like that? Interesting the Holy Father had very nice things to say about Billy but you just want to label him a teacher of false doctrine.

The Pope is very polite to everyone. However even Mr. Graham was aware that the Pope considered the doctrinesMr Graham preached to be false.

I think part of the problem here is that you really have no understanding whatsoever of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[justasking4]

The Pope is very polite to everyone. However even Mr. Graham was aware that the Pope considered the doctrinesMr Graham preached to be false.

I think part of the problem here is that you really have no understanding whatsoever of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Since you believe that OSAS is false how does the catholic church interpret this passage from John 10:27-29—?

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

 

[estesbob]

Since you believe that OSAS is false how does the catholic church interpret this passage from John 10:27-29—?

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

The Catholic Church does not pull specific verses out of Scripture and try and develop theologies out of them. The idea that one can figure out Gods Salvation plan from 3 verses of scripture is nonsense. The Church doctines are rested on three pillars:

Scripture
Tradition
The Teachings of the Magestrium.

OSAS flunks all three. it is not supported by Scripture, it was not believed by the Church fathersnor was it a doctine that even existed until 1,500 years after Christ rose form the dead.

 

[justasking4]

estesbob;3989285]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Since you believe that OSAS is false how does the catholic church interpret this passage from John 10:27-29—?

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

estesbob
The Catholic Church does not pull specific verses out of Scripture and try and develop theologies out of them.

Huh? Of course the catholic church pulls out specific verses out of Scripture to develop theologies out of them. Look at how John 6 is used to support the eucharist or Matthew 16:13-19 to support the papacy. You can add I Corinthians 3 to support purgatory.

The idea that one can figure out Gods Salvation plan from 3 verses of scripture is nonsense.

I didn’t ask that. I asked what the offical interpretation of John 10:27-29 is.

The Church doctines are rested on three pillars:

Scripture
Tradition

What do you mean by Tradition? Is there a list of these Traditions somewhere?

The Teachings of the Magestrium.

Has the Magestrium interpreted John 10:27-29?

OSAS flunks all three. it is not supported by Scripture,

How can you say OSAS is not supported by Scripture when the catholic church has never interpreted john 10:27-29 which is one of the primary scriptural supports for OSAS?

it was not believed by the Church fathersnor was it a doctine that even existed until 1,500 years after Christ rose form the dead.

This does not mean that much. There are a number of catholic docrines that were unknown for centuries. Mary’s assumption is one.

 

[Ronald_E]

I don’t believe in Her power. Only in the Power of Jesus Christ. She was a mother to Him. Don’t make her more than that.

Her power comes from God who became man through the union of Her and the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to make her more than what God has made her. It is fact that we make her less than what God has made her.