“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

[ibkc]

If it wasn’t available for 1400 years, then that would indeed be a good argument that the Catholic church kept the masses from reading the Bible.

Excuse me, but not just the Bible, but ALL books were scarce, not because of some evil conspiracy by the Catholic Church, but because a) literacy was low and b) books had to be copied by hand, an extremely time-consuming process, and consequently books were expensive and rare. There was no Borders chain bookseller in every strip mall back in the Dark and Middle Ages - something we modern folks would do well to remember. Imposing your post-modern ideas of society on the realities of life 1000 or 1500 years ago simply does not work.

 

[ellammcg]

There are excellent reasons to live a holy life since OSAS is correct. It does not mean we do this to earn salvation but it is a result of our understanding of what Christ has done for us who are in Christ.

What do you think are the characteristics of a person who is saved?

#1. I did not say there is no reason to live a holy life, I said there are no eternal consequences to not doing so therefore we do not HAVE to.

#2. That they will love the Lord their God with all their heart, soul and mind and their neighbor as themselves (including posters on Forums ) and that they will manifest the fruit of the spirit. To assist in that endeavor, one should regularly study the Bible, pray, and have fellowship with other believers.

 

[justasking4]

ellammcg;3998055]#1. I did not say there is no reason to live a holy life, I said there are no eternal consequences to not doing so therefore we do not HAVE to.

If there are no eternal consquences then why does 2 Corinthians 5:10 tell us that we (Christians) will stand before the judgement seat of Christ if our actions don’t matter?

There is quite a long list of exhortations and warnings in Scripture about the consquences of how we live our lives in Christ.

#2. That they will love the Lord their God with all their heart, soul and mind and their neighbor as themselves (including posters on Forums ) and that they will manifest the fruit of the spirit. To assist in that endeavor, one should regularly study the Bible, pray, and have fellowship with other believers.

I agree this is part of it.

 

[ellammcg]

If there are no eternal consquences then why does 2 Corinthians 5:10 tell us that we (Christians) will stand before the judgement seat of Christ if our actions don’t matter?

There is quite a long list of exhortations and warnings in Scripture about the consquences of how we live our lives in Christ.

OSAS, AKA eternal security, stipulates lack of rewards for those who are not faithful, but not a loss of heaven. I don’t consider receiving a little (or lot) less rewards to be a particularly horrible punishment, not when compared to going to hell.

I would not consider this to be a verse that proves OSAS: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” KJV 2 Cor 5:10

What do you consider the characteristics of a saved person?

 

[distracted]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrssls View Post
Quote:

That is why you pray to JESUS!!! He knows exactly what you’re going through. Remember He lived here on earth. He knows exactly what you need. Hence, my saying, pray to Jesus, no one else. No one else can answer your prayers, only HIM.

you don’t know wht you are talking about because you have never tried it… I have…

 

[distracted]

I. What I did say was God does bless their ministries, and since their doctrines don’t fall lock-step with the Catholic doctrines, one has to ponder why God is blessing them.

God blessed them? How do you know if it wasn’t Satan who “blessed them”? Satan worshippers worship him because he gives them worldly things… riches being one…

if a “church’s” doctrines are not in lock-step with those of the Church, they are not in lock step with the truth… and therefore, are leading people astray. God would NOT bless such a thing… (He only allows it because of free will).

 

[SyCarl]

Is that by chance how things are addressed in your faith community??

In my church (Presbyterian Church in Canada) all that is required is to accept the Apostle’s Creed. Personally I think too many churches define too much as necessary to believe. It is correct that any matter is either true or false but it is not necessary to know everything that it is possible to know. We try to know everything because our pride tells us we should know everything we think we should.

 

[distracted]

There was another conversation on this board where it was claimed by Catholics that the church never discouraged or prevented laypersons from reading the Bible. If it wasn’t available for 1400 years, then that would indeed be a good argument that the Catholic church kept the masses from reading the Bible.

the Church has always discouraged people reading the Bible and Interpreting it themselves, knowing that human nature being what it is… they would inevitably get some thi8ngs wrong. The Catholic Church is called our Mother (sometimes) and it is no wonder why… A mother protects her children… a Mother doesn’t want any of her children to suffer (HEll)… so She wants us to get it right…

 

[t68ware]

God blessed them? How do you know if it wasn’t Satan who “blessed them”? Satan worshippers worship him because he gives them worldly things… riches being one…

if a “church’s” doctrines are not in lock-step with those of the Church, they are not in lock step with the truth… and therefore, are leading people astray. God would NOT bless such a thing… (He only allows it because of free will).

Wow. From what I have read from other Catholics on this post, you do not understand Church teaching as it relates to other Christian ministries. Are you saying other Christians who are not Catholic are not blessed by God? Are you saying there are no Christians except Catholics? And the idea that Satan might have blessed others through a Billy Graham event is a shameful thing to say and it shows you truely do not understand God working in the lives of non-Catholics.

 

[justasking4]

OSAS, AKA eternal security, stipulates lack of rewards for those who are not faithful, but not a loss of heaven. I don’t consider receiving a little (or lot) less rewards to be a particularly horrible punishment, not when compared to going to hell.

I would not consider this to be a verse that proves OSAS: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” KJV 2 Cor 5:10

What do you consider the characteristics of a saved person?

Here are some characteristics of a saved person:

• Love for God: Psalm 42:1; 73:25; Luke 10:27; Romans 8:7
• Repentance from Sin: Psalm 32:5; Proverbs 28:13; Romans 7:14; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 1:8-10
• Genuine Humility: Psalm 51:17; Matthew 5:1-12; James 4:6, 9.
• Devotion to God’s Glory: Psalm 105:3; 115:1; Isaiah 43:7, 48:10.; Jeremiah 9:23, 24; 1 Corinthians 10:31
• Continual Prayer: Luke 18:1; Ephesians 6:18.; Philippians 4:6.; 1 Timothy 2:1-4; James 5:16-18
• Selfless Love: 1 John 2:9, 3:14; 4:7.
• Separation from the World: 1 Corinthians 2:12; James 4:4.; 1 John 2:15-17, 5:5
• Spiritual Growth: Luke 8:15; John 15:1-6; Ephesians 4:12-16
• Obedient Living: Matthew 7:21; John 15:14.; Romans 16:26; 1 Peter 1:2, 22; 1 John 2:3-5

 

[justasking4]

distracted;3998425]the Church has always discouraged people reading the Bible and Interpreting it themselves, knowing that human nature being what it is… they would inevitably get some thi8ngs wrong.

There is no way around interpreting not only the Bible for yourself but also church teachings. We cannot read without interpreting.

The Catholic Church is called our Mother (sometimes) and it is no wonder why… A mother protects her children… a Mother doesn’t want any of her children to suffer (HEll)… so She wants us to get it right…

The problem with this is that the Catholic Church has never offically interpreted the verses and passages of most of the Bible. From what i have read on this it has interpreted less than 20 verses of the thousands of verses in the Scriptures.

 

[guanophore]

There is no way around interpreting not only the Bible for yourself but also church teachings. We cannot read without interpreting.

I am glad to hear you say this, ja4. This is a hard thing for “bible christians” to admit. Most deny that they interpret, and say that it is the “plain meaning” of the text, not realizing that their own perspective affects how it is understood.

The problem with this is that the Catholic Church has never offically interpreted the verses and passages of most of the Bible. From what i have read on this it has interpreted less than 20 verses of the thousands of verses in the Scriptures.

This is not a "problem’ for anyone but you, ja4. We have the Apostolic Teaching through which we understand what they wrote. When we read the text, we read it through the lenses that have been handed down to us.

We also know that scripture is not meant to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced it, and that it is not proper to try to make doctrine from the “thousands of verses”. In fact, there were no “verses” in the text until Catholics added the chapters and verses.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3999179]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is no way around interpreting not only the Bible for yourself but also church teachings. We cannot read without interpreting.

guanophore;
I am glad to hear you say this, ja4. This is a hard thing for “bible christians” to admit. Most deny that they interpret, and say that it is the “plain meaning” of the text, not realizing that their own perspective affects how it is understood.

The same thing applies to catholics. They not only have to interpret the Scriptures on their own since their church never has come even close to but also must interpret the many doctrines and teachings and try to harmonize them all. I have yet to see a catholic do this effectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The problem with this is that the Catholic Church has never offically interpreted the verses and passages of most of the Bible. From what i have read on this it has interpreted less than 20 verses of the thousands of verses in the Scriptures.

guanophore;
This is not a "problem’ for anyone but you, ja4. We have the Apostolic Teaching through which we understand what they wrote. When we read the text, we read it through the lenses that have been handed down to us.

Actually it is you who has a major problem since you have no way to know what lenses that have been handed down to you.
How do you for example interpret something consistently when there are opposing views on a particular doctrine from the fathers?
How do you know what sources to use when you want to understand something in the text of scripture?

We also know that scripture is not meant to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced it, and that it is not proper to try to make doctrine from the “thousands of verses”. In fact, there were no “verses” in the text until Catholics added the chapters and verses.

 

[ellammcg]

Here are some characteristics of a saved person:

• Love for God: Psalm 42:1; 73:25; Luke 10:27; Romans 8:7
• Repentance from Sin: Psalm 32:5; Proverbs 28:13; Romans 7:14; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 1:8-10
• Genuine Humility: Psalm 51:17; Matthew 5:1-12; James 4:6, 9.
• Devotion to God’s Glory: Psalm 105:3; 115:1; Isaiah 43:7, 48:10.; Jeremiah 9:23, 24; 1 Corinthians 10:31
• Continual Prayer: Luke 18:1; Ephesians 6:18.; Philippians 4:6.; 1 Timothy 2:1-4; James 5:16-18
• Selfless Love: 1 John 2:9, 3:14; 4:7.
• Separation from the World: 1 Corinthians 2:12; James 4:4.; 1 John 2:15-17, 5:5
• Spiritual Growth: Luke 8:15; John 15:1-6; Ephesians 4:12-16
• Obedient Living: Matthew 7:21; John 15:14.; Romans 16:26; 1 Peter 1:2, 22; 1 John 2:3-5

If that is the standard, well then, sad to say, I have never met a saved person.

 

[justasking4]

If that is the standard, well then, sad to say, I have never met a saved person.

This is soemething we should desire and strive for in our lives. It is demanding but if you are saved you have the HS in you to help you.

 

[guanophore]

The same thing applies to catholics. They not only have to interpret the Scriptures on their own since their church never has come even close to but also must interpret the many doctrines and teachings and try to harmonize them all.

I agree with you that it takes much study to show oneself approved, and the more one studies, the more there is to learn. However, it is calumny to say that Catholics are “on their own”. We have the guidance of the Magesterium, whose duty it is to preserve the Apostolic Teachings for us. It is through this lens that we read and study. Jesus promised never to leave us, or forsake us, so we are not on our own.

I have yet to see a catholic do this effectively.

I am sorry that you have never met any well catechized Catholics. One wonders, that being the case, why are you here? Is it just to use CAF as a venue for detraction, accusation, and false witness?

Actually it is you who has a major problem since you have no way to know what lenses that have been handed down to you.

Fortunately, I am able to trust in God, and His promises. I believe HIm when He said He would send His spirit to guide us into all truth. I used to be like you, and unable to trust God, as well as others, but God healed me.

How do you for example interpret something consistently when there are opposing views on a particular doctrine from the fathers?

Because the doctrine is the same. The Fathers and the theologians may disagree, but the Church determines the truth.
This is why Jesus founded a Church, and left the HS to guide.

How do you know what sources to use when you want to understand something in the text of scripture?

Don’t you think that is an issue for another thread? It is a bit off topic here.

 

[Jimmy_B]

You have no idea whether they are winning people for Christ or not. Teaching people false, simplistic unsupportable doctrines does not win them for anyone-in fact it imperils their immortal soul.

Hello estebob,

All true… and I have seen “Born-Again”, Evangelical Churches who actually count the number of people who come forward at each serviced…“to be saved” and they keep a running tally…

Maybe someone here who goes to a Church like this, or has gone to a Church like this in the past, could explain what this is all about.

Very good point!

Peace

 

[t68ware]

It seems the term “born again” is a little maligned in some catholic circles. Jesus did state a person must be born again to see the kingdom of God. What does being “born again” mean to Catholics?

 

[MrS]

It seems the term “born again” is a little maligned in some catholic circles. Jesus did state a person must be born again to see the kingdom of God. What does being “born again” mean to Catholics?

It means you first need to complete the sentence…

“…unless one is born again of water and the Holy Spirit…”

However, the “unless” is not to be taken as “alone” as if it were the only requirement period. Like the word “believe”, there are a lot of things we can and should, and even must do (yes DO ) as we work ( ) our way to heaven.

Baptism is what God does to us. It is His imparting the grace we need to answer that original sin, and partake of the inhieritance of heaven. So if one really understood the power of the Sacrament, one would understand that to even want to be re-baptized is like telling God that He must not have done it right the first time.

I suppose the list of Scripture verses could be added here like “take up your cross”, and “sell everything”, and “unless you eat…”, and all the to-do list in Romans. But the bottom line is that following Christ is a work in itself. The simplistic answer that all we need is an altar call, a sinner’s prayer, and a belief (but not in the truth of, say, John 6) is potential disaster for our souls.

These untruths must be addressed by every Catholic everywhere.

.

 

[Ronald_E]

It seems the term “born again” is a little maligned in some catholic circles. Jesus did state a person must be born again to see the kingdom of God. What does being “born again” mean to Catholics?

With hindsight being 20/20, I was “born again” when my mother who was a non-practicing Catholic had me and my two younger brothers, with the support of my Protestant father, baptized at the age of 6.
From that time, a conscience was formed in me that provided guidlines to live by. This conscience is what I used to call my “Catholic guilt” that I would poke fun at and try to extinguish throughout my life as I studied psychology, philosophy, eastern mysticism and meditation when I left Catholicism at the age of 18.
As I look at my history this guilt was a gift that prevented me from going too far away
Being confirmed at the age of 12 and receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit though not yet fully integrated into my developing identity was critical in how I was directed toward an internal search for God that was always present in me even though I had committed many sins against Him and His creations.
In receiving Jesus in Communion, I now see how He had never left me and was continually guiding me towards the development of an unselfish love. Although I failed many times, He always compelled me to be honest and open to others with my sins and to seek humility by expressing my sins to others. I did this but the shame of accumulated sin still piled up on my soul and conscience. Over the years of these accumulated effects of sin I developed a social phobia that prevented me from being in situations where I thought I would be judged. With the limited free will I had I was able to face certain fears and “white nuckle” my way through and gain a limited strength and self worth that was still very precarious.
However, I was still growing up in the Spirit that had been given to me through the Sacraments that I hadn’t received for decades.
Then after 40 years away Easter Vigil of 2005 I made a 40 year confession and all my shame was washed away.
I have finally left the defensive, angry years of adolescence and am now in the adult years of being “born again”. When I was a child I spoke and thought and acted as a child. Now that I am a man I have put away childhood things. The smokey glass is clearing.
My confirmation name is Paul. Now I am born again every day I wake up to a new understanding and love for God and the Church He gave me that gives me so much love I am only beginning to understand.