“School supports Sodomy”

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GreenJeans, if a day of silence was against “bullying” in society unity would be widespread from every group.

Yet having a day of silence in Schools for kids who say, pick their noses and lunch on the remains shouldn’t be encouraged. Not many want to hear them demanding public support for their behavior disorder. Yet still they certainly should be bullied for it.
Well, if the pickers were organized, and noticed the mini-pickers were being picked on, would you object to them picking a day to encourage people to reject picking on the pickers?

Or how about Catholics? Would you object to Catholics organizing to encourage people to reject picking on Catholics?

Do we let the pickers get picked on, yet pick William Donahue to condemn anyone who picks on a Catholic?

Does what we like to hear take precedence over protecting kids?
 
There is no moral comparison between practicing sodomites
and faithful Catholics. That’s comparing apples and oranges.
There probably is no moral comparison. Yet they share a common characteristic: both are legally protected activities.
 
do you object to gays organizing campaigns to encourage people to reject the bullying of gays? Likewise, would you object to Catholics organizing campaigns to encourage people to reject the bullying of Catholics?
That’s a pretty subtle question.

I definately do not object to campaigns against bullying, but I do object to people with SSAD grouping together to seek approval from each other for commiting grave sin just as I would be against a masturbators club. People should group together to work together for fellowship and virtue not to condone sin.

Note you asked me what I object to, not what the government should object to. Legally, it goes into that area of cause and effect and I think the government should not restrict free assembly based on an interpretation of the beliefs of a group.

So I geuss ultimately I would praise their campaign against bullying but as a spiritual work of mercy counsel them to chastity and to shun sexual relations outside the context of sacramental marriage and ask the “gay” group to add to its agenda a call for chastity for all unmarried people.

peace
 
Do you object to efforts to curb bullying gays? How about if those efforts are undertaken and organized by gays?

Do you object to efforts to curb bullying Catholics? How about if those efforts are undertaken by Catholics?

Understand this is not an accusation that you favor bullying of anyone. I have no basis for such an accusation. I ask it in the context of the thread topic and your views on how the struggle of gays differs from that of other groups.
I object to bullying period. Why single out one group? The answer is that it is another attempt to vallidate disordered sinful disorder as acceptable.
 
I object to bullying period. Why single out one group? The answer is that it is another attempt to vallidate disordered sinful disorder as acceptable.
Does that mean you object to Catholics organizing to stop bullying against Catholics? Catholics are a single group, and such organizing would be singling out Catholics.

Our society if full of interests groups that single out their membership and advocate on their behalf. For example, the Caholic League is concerned with the welfare and treatment of Catholics. While I am sure the CL recognizes that injustice extends far beyond poor treatment of Catholics, they have chosen to protect and advocate for ther own.

The same is true of the NAACP and Anti-defamation League. The activity of the Catholic League, NAACP, and ADL are necessary because society does not act on your general objection to bullying. And since none of the organizations can solve the whole societal problem alone, they tackle what they can and aim for an incremental benefit. These groups don’t believe in sitting on their hands because they can’t solve all problems; they do what they can to solve the problems they can.
 
Does that mean you object to Catholics organizing to stop bullying against Catholics? Catholics are a single group, and such organizing would be singling out Catholics.

Our society if full of interests groups that single out their membership and advocate on their behalf. For example, the Caholic League is concerned with the welfare and treatment of Catholics. While I am sure the CL recognizes that injustice extends far beyond poor treatment of Catholics, they have chosen to protect and advocate for ther own.

The same is true of the NAACP and Anti-defamation League. The activity of the Catholic League, NAACP, and ADL are necessary because society does not act on your general objection to bullying. And since none of the organizations can solve the whole societal problem alone, they tackle what they can and aim for an incremental benefit. These groups don’t believe in sitting on their hands because they can’t solve all problems; they do what they can to solve the problems they can.
None of the groups you mention is promoting sodomy.None of the organization you mention demand schools devote a day to their cause.
 
I object to bullying period. Why single out one group?
Because gay people have to deal with it a whole lot more maybe?
The answer is that it is another attempt to vallidate disordered sinful disorder as acceptable.
You seem to forget that we do not live in a theocracy, and even if you disagree with the lifestyle, an attempt to make it illegal pretty much violates the constitution. If those against homosexuality had something in their case that didnt fall under the category of “the bible says it is a sin” it might be a different story.
 
Because gay people have to deal with it a whole lot more maybe?

You seem to forget that we do not live in a theocracy, and even if you disagree with the lifestyle, an attempt to make it illegal pretty much violates the constitution. If those against homosexuality had something in their case that didnt fall under the category of “the bible says it is a sin” it might be a different story.
You seem to forget that our schools are not there to promote or legitimize homosexual behavior. If you think it ok thats your right, if i think it is sinful thats my right-but note I am not trying to force schools to promote my point of view.
 
You seem to forget that our schools are not there to promote or legitimize homosexual behavior. If you think it ok thats your right, if i think it is sinful thats my right-but note I am not trying to force schools to promote my point of view.
Neither is the school. Like someone said earlier in this thread, if kids wore shirts to school that were anti black during black history month, it would not be justified, so your point isnt valid.

Not allowing people to promote hate against homosexuality does not mean forcing people to support it.
 
None of the groups you mention is promoting sodomy.None of the organization you mention demand schools devote a day to their cause.
So what? Many people in the US think Catholics follow the anti-Christ in Rome and the Catholic League is in cahoots with them. Is that reason to object to Catholics organizing to prevent bullying of Catholics?

Is it OK for Catholics to organize to prevent bullying of Catholics? I say yes. What do you say?

Schools devote the month of February to Black History. That is a NAACP project. They have a holiday on Martin Luther King’s birthday.

Christmas celebrates the birth of the founder of the Christian religion. It’s a school holiday.
 
Neither is the school. Like someone said earlier in this thread, if kids wore shirts to school that were anti black during black history month, it would not be justified, so your point isnt valid.

Not allowing people to promote hate against homosexuality does not mean forcing people to support it.
The schools are DEMANDING support. The kids in oppostion werent wearng shirts advocating hatred. They were wearing shirts disagreeing woth the premise of the day. They were silenced
 
The schools are DEMANDING support. The kids in oppostion werent wearng shirts advocating hatred. They were wearing shirts disagreeing woth the premise of the day. They were silenced
The premise of the day was gay kids shouldn’t be beaten.
 
How about a day where the premise is NOBODY should be beaten.
That would be fine. But it wasn’t the premise of the day. Perhaps the Catholic League will sponsor such a day. The premise of the day was that gay kids shouldn’t be beaten.

So, you tell us the protesters disagreed with the premise of the day. Does that mean they disagree that gays kids should not be beaten? Does that mean they think gay kids should be beaten?

I do not think gays kids should be beaten. I support that regardless of whomever else supports it. Do you support that? Who here cannot support that idea?
 
You seem to forget that we do not live in a theocracy, and even if you disagree with the lifestyle, an attempt to make it illegal pretty much violates the constitution. If those against homosexuality had something in their case that didnt fall under the category of “the bible says it is a sin” it might be a different story.
There are two difficulties that may be underlying the stalemate of this discussion.

First, Catholics recognize that we do live in a “theocracy.” This notion is reflected in the language of the beginning of the “Declaration of Independence” of the United States as well as in the concept of “limited powers” which under girds the United States Constitution. This concept was put this way by Pope Leo XIII: “. . . it is not of itself wrong to prefer a democratic form of government, if only the Catholic doctrine be maintained as to the origin and exercise of power. Of the various forms of government, the Church does not reject any that are fitted to procure the welfare of the subject; she wishes only ---- and this nature itself requires – that they should be constituted without involving wrong to any one, and especially without violating the rights of the Church.” Libertas Praestantissimum (On the Nature of Human Liberty), art. 44 (AD 1888).

Hence there are limits on the powers that government can exercise, because there are limits on the sovereign power which people have and therefore on the powers which they can delegate to the government. Hence, a government that attempts to “legislate” the definition of “human nature” is exceeding its power when it differs from the doctrines of the Catholic Church on this matter.

Second, a difference must be recognized between a claim that is true and a claim that is false, when weighing what claims must be recognized in justice by the government. Hence, a claim that seeks merely formal equality is not entitled to recognition, when compared to a claim that is grounded in both Devine and natural law. The issue of justice turns not on what one believes to be true, but on what is true. Hence, judgment in such matters depends on discerning the truth of the matter, not on merely formal equality of “propositions.”

This raises several issues in the current discussion. One is the authority of the Scriptures and the Magisterium. These represent the source of two important forms of truth: Divine Revelation on the one hand, and the accumulated wisdom of mankind over the last 10,000 years, more or less, on the other. In making decisions about public policy and the common good of society, these two forms of truth cannot be ignored. Scientific opinion (which is admittedly tentative and immature) cannot replace these other two sources of truth, if public administration is to be responsible.

This claim that truth must be relevant to both justice and to public policy is at the heart of the confusion that seems to overtake reasonable discussion almost as soon as the topic of the proper public policy regarding homosexual behavior and advocacy is raised.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
We should not let loose language confuse us. It is the duty of the faithful to hate, in certain senses of that word. Jesus hated the acts of some. We are all commanded to hate – as a necessary part of love of God. Consider these passages from the New Testament Scriptures:

If any man come to me, and **hate **not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

He’s not commanding hate of others, but preference for His message to them. We have the word “prefer”, which allows for less stark differences: if I prefer the UK to the US, that does not imply hate for the US: the Semitic idiom was different - to “love” the UK, is to “hate” the US.​

Besides, Jesus could hardly preach love of enemies & hatred (in our sense) of relatives with any consistency. But to love enemies, & to prefer His message to all family relationships, raises no such problems.

That is not the issue here - hatred of homosexuality does not imply preference for anything else: one could, in theory, perfectly well hate homosexuality, & prefer adultery or bestiality. Hate is very negative - it tells us only that people are against something - not what they are for. ##
Itself remaineth alone. But if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that **hateth **his life in this world, keepeth it unto life eternal. John 12:25 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

See above​

For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do. Romans 7:15 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)Thou hast loved justice, and **hated **iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Hebrews 1:9 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)But this thou hast, that thou **hatest **the deeds of the Nicolaites, which I also hate. Revelation 2:6 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)There are many more uses of the word “hate” in the Old Testament, many of which reflect parts of the Gospel that are still binding.

The Faith demands full emotional competence. Hate is one of the emotions that we must feel fully and in precisely the correct way. It is a dangerous but necessary emotion. We cannot be casual about understanding its nature or its targets. (We must be careful to understand the word “hate” were it appears above in the precise way that the Church understands it. We cannot accept popular meanings for an English word, when we are trying to understand the meaning of Scriptures and Church teachings understood and expressed before English was devised.)

Given all of this, we should not fall too easily into the simplistic and imprecise way of speaking favored by journalists and “activists” for various popular causes. Simple, thoughtless talk is the tool of the enemies of the Church, not of her children.

That is a reason for objecting to a slogan such “Homosexuality is a sin” - if the orientation is meant, then no, it is not a sin; the teaching Church is very careful to distinguish between the orientation, & the acts to which it gives rise. It is not good if the two are being treated as identical - they are not. As an OP has noted already.​

So yes, that is indeed “thoughtless talk”, & is therefore better avoided. ##
Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

Unlike Jesus , we are not Jesus. Jesus was wholly free of all evil - which no one else is. St.Paul could hate his own sins - but for us to decide to hate the sins of others, especially when we don’t know them, let alone, their temptations, STM to be very dangerous. “The faithful” have in the past shown all too well how accomplished they can be at hating - which surely ought to be a warning to us; we are not different in nature from from our ancestors. I for one don’t need to be taught to hate (I do that all too well :(), & I certainly don’t need any further temptations to it. Besides, this issue is an emotive one already - the last thing one should do is add any fuel to the fire.​

Hatred is too dangerous - why not love, instead ?
 
That would be fine. But it wasn’t the premise of the day. Perhaps the Catholic League will sponsor such a day. The premise of the day was that gay kids shouldn’t be beaten.

So, you tell us the protesters disagreed with the premise of the day. Does that mean they disagree that gays kids should not be beaten? Does that mean they think gay kids should be beaten?

I do not think gays kids should be beaten. I support that regardless of whomever else supports it. Do you support that? Who here cannot support that idea?
The protestors disagree with the premise that Homosecxauls should be singled out for special treatment.
 
The protestors disagree with the premise that Homosecxauls should be singled out for special treatment.
OK. But that wasn’t the premise of the day. The premise was that gay kids should not be beaten.

Would you disagree with the premise that Catholics kids should not be beaten? Do you object to that? Why? Why should Catholic kids be beaten?
 
OK. But that wasn’t the premise of the day. The premise was that gay kids should not be beaten.

Would you disagree with the premise that Catholics kids should not be beaten? Do you object to that? Why? Why should Catholic kids be beaten?
Why not have a day where the premise is no one should be beaten? Why were homosexuals singled out for “protection”, The answer is that the " Day of Silence " has little to do with violence against homosexuals and much to do with the promoting the homosexual political agenda-it has no place in our schools.
 
Why not have a day where the premise is no one should be beaten? Why were homosexuals singled out for “protection”, The answer is that the " Day of Silence " has little to do with violence against homosexuals and much to do with the promoting the homosexual political agenda-it has no place in our schools.
Gays were singled out because there is a constituency that cares about them. Just as the Catholic League singles out Catholics. The gays stepped out and did what everyone else just talks about.

The answer is the gays did what the rest of the people only talk about. The gays shamed them all by their resolute action.

Do you object to the Catholic League advocating on the part of Catholics?
 
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