“The hour has come .... abandon the practice of Communion standing and in the hand”

[Jeanette_L]

This proves my point.

Moses had a speech impediment. Did God have him do the talking anyway? No, He gave him Aaron for this. The particular priests that have a difficult time distributing Holy Communion should be assisted by those who can do it, or they should stay back (as did Moses) while the other(s) (Aaron) do what needs to be done.

Am I making better sense? I know my earlier posts came off rather hard, I hope this conveys my thoughts better.

The point was made that the priest is perfectly able to administer the Blessed Sacrament under the NO, with or without help. This did not seem to be sufficient for those who are completely opposed to the Ordinary form as has been given to us by our Church. This is what I find troubling as much as anything, the presumption that the Church is able to err in what she has given us and by whom.

But I do appreciate you clarifying your intent, although we will have to agree to disagree on these things.

 

[JReducation]

Actually, it’s not unCatholic. Some people cannot do certain things. I would love to be a soldier, or a priest. Guess what? God created me a woman, therefore those options are out. I can moan and groan about it not being fair, but that’s just the way it is. It’s just as ridiculous for me to whine about that as it is for a man to picket the Vatican because he can’t give birth to children. A person wants to be a doctor, but let’s say their missing a couple fingers. A man wants to be a fireman but he’s too weak to run with his gear. A police officer with no aim (which doesn’t get better). A teacher with no patience. A 300 pound exercise instructer. A colonel who’s never been in battle. There are requirements everywhere, desire doesn’t cut it. Look in the Scriptures, where Jesus heals a man and that man wants to abandon all to follow Him. Jesus doesn’t allow it. Just because the desire is there doesn’t mean that one is called to -----whatever it is they want to do. Some need to accept their limitations and do what they can, not require exceptions to be made to fit their wants. I’m not saying the brothers mentioned have that mentality, as I’m sure they don’t. What they do is permitted, and I’m sure they’re very greatful for that. Why do Catholics feel the need to give in to every desire these days?!

Where do the exceptions stop? Should Rome permit confession over the phone? Why not permit us to fulfill our Sunday obligation by watching Mass on EWTN? Women priests? Married priests? Gay priests? Mass outside because building a church is too inconvenient? We need to think ahead and look at where an action will lead.

This post is talking about eliminating the NO and communion standing up etc.

I’m asking, is it fair to ask a priest who cannot stand or walk to stop celebrating mass when the simple solution is to let him sit in his wheelchair in one spot or stand on his crutches in one spot and have the faithful come to him?

Kneeling for communion or at a communion rail is not a dogma of the Church that has to be enforced.

Thanks to the fact that we have both forms of the Roman Rite, we priests with disabilities can celebrate the mass in the NO without ever having to use the EF, because they don’t have to kneel, climb steps or walk back and forth along communion rails.

When I see our two Brothers celebrate mass, I’m inspired. I have see how much our congregation loves them.

By the way, the reason they are both in our parish is because the church has no steps and the sanctuary is only one step up, so it has a ramp to one side which is not even noticeable and the presider’s chair is not anchored down. It can be moved when the Brother in the wheel chair presides.

None of this causes a disturbance to the reverence of the liturgy or to the prayerfulness of the faithful.

In fact, our parish has seven masses every Sunday, with about 1000 people at each. During Holy Week we had a Reconciliation Service with more than 400 people going to confession. We had to rent priests from the diocese.

We have almost 1000 kids going to youth mass every Sunday evening and a relgious education program that runs four nights per week and on Sunday morning.

My feeling is, if it’s not broken, don’t fix it.

JR

 

[JReducation]

This proves my point.

Moses had a speech impediment. Did God have him do the talking anyway? No, He gave him Aaron for this. The particular priests that have a difficult time distributing Holy Communion should be assisted by those who can do it, or they should stay back (as did Moses) while the other(s) (Aaron) do what needs to be done.

Am I making better sense? I know my earlier posts came off rather hard, I hope this conveys my thoughts better.

You also know that Paul was physically impaired, right? Apparently, either had some kind of accident in his youth or was born with a physical impairment. He could not walk well. This is why he had Luke travel with him. Luke was not only his disciple, but also his physician.

We do not kow exactly what the damage to his leg was.

Nonetheless, he was called to be a bishop.

Pope John Paul II would never have been able to celebrate the EF as his Parkinson’s progressed, eventually he could not kneel or climb steps.

There are more priests with physical disabilities today, than ever before, because the NO makes it easier for them to celebrate mass.

Let’s not cast these holy men away. There is no need to do so.

JR

 

[pnewton]

I think the whole idea of priest without fingers, or unable to stand is an unnecessary sidetrack. Obviously, regardless of the norm, an exception can be made to cope with a disability on a case by case basis. These are only disciplinary issues.

 

[elt1956]

Should men be ordained who may have lost several fingers? Some are not fit to be priests because the physically cannot do what is required. I’m sure these priests are holy, and this situation is very saddening. However, there are other things they could do that would help the parish aside from offering Mass and distributing Communion. We all have crosses to bear.

Dear latinmasslover. Did you read JR’s post as to what extents the disabled priests in his parish go to in order to be able to give Christ to communicants? That to me is heroism. We need more of them, not more of those who would forbid one from partaking in the distribution of communion because of a physical disability. I don’t know how old your are, but one of these days you may have to take communion at your pew. Now how would that be proper in your eyes? The shoe would be on the other foot and it would squeeze.

 

[CreatioNova]

Should men be ordained who may have lost several fingers? Some are not fit to be priests because the physically cannot do what is required. I’m sure these priests are holy, and this situation is very saddening. However, there are other things they could do that would help the parish aside from offering Mass and distributing Communion. We all have crosses to bear.

Are you seriously saying that a man, who has discerned a calling for God to the priesthood, and has had this confirmed by years and years of spiritual direction and study, backed up by his Orders Fathers, should reject such a calling because he has a disability of some sort

Who are you to queston such a calling

I may be reading you wrong and if so I apologise, but honestly, if that’s what you are saying I find that bang out of order !!!

These religious men, called by God, should stay in the shadows because they are disabled???

DO you think people with learning disabilites shouldnt attend college either because God made them intellectualy challenged?

Do you think public buildings shouldn’t make it possible for people in wheelchairs to access all their facilities as they can settle for a dvd at home rather than going in public to the cinema to watch a movie ???

I buy burgers at a road side cafe on my way home from work sometimes - the chef has no fingers on one hand, and no hand on the other arm.

He’s adapted his style and servers a mean burger.

We have a duty to accommodate those with a disability to the nth to enable them to play their part and fulfill their role, whatever that may be.
If the NO rite allows a disabled priest to continue to serve his congregation - fantastic.

 

[elt1956]

Actually, it’s not unCatholic. Some people cannot do certain things. I would love to be a soldier, or a priest. Guess what? God created me a woman, therefore those options are out. I can moan and groan about it not being fair, but that’s just the way it is. It’s just as ridiculous for me to whine about that as it is for a man to picket the Vatican because he can’t give birth to children. A person wants to be a doctor, but let’s say their missing a couple fingers. A man wants to be a fireman but he’s too weak to run with his gear. A police officer with no aim (which doesn’t get better). A teacher with no patience. A 300 pound exercise instructer. A colonel who’s never been in battle. There are requirements everywhere, desire doesn’t cut it. Look in the Scriptures, where Jesus heals a man and that man wants to abandon all to follow Him. Jesus doesn’t allow it. Just because the desire is there doesn’t mean that one is called to -----whatever it is they want to do. Some need to accept their limitations and do what they can, not require exceptions to be made to fit their wants. I’m not saying the brothers mentioned have that mentality, as I’m sure they don’t. What they do is permitted, and I’m sure they’re very greatful for that. Why do Catholics feel the need to give in to every desire these days?!

Where do the exceptions stop? Should Rome permit confession over the phone? Why not permit us to fulfill our Sunday obligation by watching Mass on EWTN? Women priests? Married priests? Gay priests? Mass outside because building a church is too inconvenient? We need to think ahead and look at where an action will lead.

Indeed we need to look ahead lml. What are you thinking??? Letting these disabled priests celebrate Mass and distribute Holy Communion is NOT an exception It is an INCLUSION of members of the Mystical Body of Christ doing what they have been called to do. Shame on you for your selfish ideas. Where is your humanity?

 

[elt1956]

Please try to remain Christian by leaving out the personal attacks and sticking with the what was actually said, not an imagined mentality behind another’s words.

How would you feel about ordaining the schizophrenic? You support this, yes? And sending a physically weak priest with nasty allergies to a mission where he’s bound to be in the hospital recovering more than serving the people, because he wants to serve in that specific mission? How about a man who knows nothing of theology, but still wants to be a priest?

We were talking about the disabled Brothers in JRs post, not people with mental disabilites, nor a person who has a so great a physical weakness the proper responsibilities cannot be accomplished. These Brothers/Priests have compensated for their disabilities. As far as allergies go, there are medicines available to control those. Are you saying one must know Theology before applying for the priesthood and can’t learn it after being accepted?? What ridiculous reasons. Get real.

 

[elt1956]

This proves my point.

Moses had a speech impediment. Did God have him do the talking anyway? No, He gave him Aaron for this. The particular priests that have a difficult time distributing Holy Communion should be assisted by those who can do it, or they should stay back (as did Moses) while the other(s) (Aaron) do what needs to be done.

Am I making better sense? I know my earlier posts came off rather hard, I hope this conveys my thoughts better.

Weeeeeeeeeeelll, it helps a little. Sorry for my responses too. Any situation is not just black and white and that is how I was reading your posts. Sorry. Peace.

 

[Unitas]

It is not a declaration but a remark in a preface to a book. It is the opinion of the person writing the preface. Anyone can be asked to preface a text and write what he or he likes. It does not make it a “declariation” that is underconsideration or needs to be examined by the Vatican. It doesn’t matte who is writing it and what position he holds in the Church, it is still only an opinion.

Let’s not forget that Ranjith holds the same poisition once held by the creator of the new mass that the vast majority of Catholics go to every week.

Let’s not assume his position is powerless.

 

[JReducation]

Please try to remain Christian by leaving out the personal attacks and sticking with the what was actually said, not an imagined mentality behind another’s words.

How would you feel about ordaining the schizophrenic? You support this, yes? And sending a physically weak priest with nasty allergies to a mission where he’s bound to be in the hospital recovering more than serving the people, because he wants to serve in that specific mission? How about a man who knows nothing of theology, but still wants to be a priest?

Brother Solanus Casey knew no theology, no Latin, and did not know how to preach. He joined the Capuchin Brothers and they ordered him to be ordained. He was ordained on the merits of his sanctity. Now he’s up for canonization and will probaby be the next American Saint. He’s from Michigan.

The Cure de Ars did not know theology, could not preach, did not know Latin, the Bishop ordered that he be ordained based on his sanctity and his desire for the priesthood, especially his desire to hear conferssions. He is now the patron saint and model for secular priests.

St. Francis allowed St. Anthony to teach theology to the Brothers only if it did not get in the way of prayer and obedience to him and the rule. Many were ordained without theology and others became great theolgians, such as Bonaventure or Cardinal O’Malley today

JR

 

[JReducation]

The title of this thread says that the time has come to abandon communion in the hand.

My argument is that communion in the hand, while standing on line and the simplicity of the NO have allowed many to become good priests.

If you suddently abandon this, what do we do with these vocations who are coming in? The Holy Father himself expressed great joy today at the fact that vocations in the USA to the secular priesthood are on the rise.

The second question piggy-backs on the first, what do we do with priests who have disabilities due to developmental disorders or to age? Some have already said that they can’t celebrate the EF becasue it requires too much mobility and kneeling.

If this allows us to attract more men to the priesthood, leave it alone. The only irreverence is in the heart, not the action.

JR

 

[MrS]

The title of this thread says that the time has come to abandon communion in the hand.

Actually the series of dots reflect the absence of some words. If you read the very first post, the entire sentence is clear…

**“The hour has come to review and, if necessary, abandon the practice of Communion standing and in the hand” **

 

[MrS]

Mat 26:26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread and blessed and broke and gave to his disciples and said: Take ye and eat. This is my body.

It does not say, kneel and open your mouth…

How do you know those who take Communion in the hand are not showing the utmost reverence in their hearts to our Lord?

Correct.

However, the 12 who were part of this instruction were the Apostles, and the Last Supper also instituted the Ministerial Priesthood.

When a concelebrant(s) is present at Mass, he(they) too takes and eats. This is not so with a deacon or lay person/EMHC, or a server etc. For them communion is received, not just taken.

 

[MrS]

More from the preface:

“Moreover, St. Thomas Aquinas had already defined the Eucharist as lateens Deitas [God who is concealed]. Faith in the Real Presence of Christ under the Eucharistic Species already belonged to the essence of the faith of the Catholic Church and was an intrinsic part of Catholic identity. It was clear that the Church could not be built up if that faith was appreciably diminished.

“Therefore, the Eucharist, bread transubstantiated into the Body of Christ and wine into the Blood of Christ, God among us, should be received with absolute wonder, the greatest reverence, and an attitude of humble adoration. Pope Benedict XVI….emphasizes that ‘receiving the Eucharist means placing oneself in an attitude of adoration toward Him whom we receive…… Only in adoration can a profound and genuine reception mature.’ (Sacramentium Caritatis, 66).

“Moreover, St. Thomas Aquinas had already defined the Eucharist as lateens Deitas [God who is concealed]. Faith in the Real Presence of Christ under the Eucharistic Species already belonged to the essence of the faith of the Catholic Church and was an intrinsic part of Catholic identity. It was clear that the Church could not be built up if that faith was appreciably diminished.

“Therefore, the Eucharist, bread transubstantiated into the Body of Christ and wine into the Blood of Christ, God among us, should be received with absolute wonder, the greatest reverence, and an attitude of humble adoration. Pope Benedict XVI….emphasizes that ‘receiving the Eucharist means placing oneself in an attitude of adoration toward Him whom we receive…… Only in adoration can a profound and genuine reception mature.’ (Sacramentium Caritatis, 66).

 

[MrS]

and just a bit more from the preface to consider:

“However, as we see in some churches today, this practice is decreasing and those responsible not only demand that the faithful receive the Holy Eucharist standing, but even eliminate all kneelers, forcing the faithful to remain standing or sitting, even for the elevation of the Eucharistic Species, exposed for the Adoration of the faithful. It is ironic that such measures have been adopted in [some] dioceses by those responsible for liturgy, and in churches by pastors, without even a minimum of consultation with the faithful, even though today, more than ever, there is so much talk about democracy in the Church.

“It is true that, if the Eucharist is received on the tongue, it can also be received in the hand, since both organs of the body are of equal dignity. Some, in order to justify this practice, referred to the words of Jesus, ‘Take and eat’ (Mk 14:22 and Mt 26:26). Whatever the reasons for maintaining this practice, we cannot ignore what is happening worldwide where this practice has been implemented.

“This gesture has contributed to a gradual and increased weakening of the attitude of reverence toward the sacred Eucharist Species, whereas the previous practice had better safeguarded that sense of reverence. Following the introduction of the new practice of Communion in the hand, an alarming lack of recollection and a general spirit of distraction arose.

“Now we see communicants who often return to their seats as if nothing extraordinary has happened. Children and teenagers are even more distracted. In many cases, one cannot perceive in others that sense of seriousness and inner silence that must signal the presence of God in the soul…

 

[JReducation]

Fortunately, we don’t have those problems in our diocese. In our parish the only thing that we HAVE to do is stand for communion for reasons already explained before. We, the parish staff or parishioners don’t mind it at all.

JR

 

[MrS]

Fortunately, we don’t have those problems in our diocese. In our parish the only thing that we HAVE to do is stand for communion for reasons already explained before. We, the parish staff or parishioners don’t mind it at all.

JR

Please explain the “…we HAVE to do is stand…”

It can be requested as a sign of unity (which we had when we all knelt). But the posture cannot be mandated.

.

 

[JReducation]

Please explain the “…we HAVE to do is stand…”

It can be requested as a sign of unity (which we had when we all knelt). But the posture cannot be mandated.

.

I guess you didn’t see my previous post.

Two of our Brothers are physically challenged. One is in a wheel chair the the other uses canes to prop himself up. They can’t move around the sanctualy easily. It’s much easier for them if the faithful just walk up to them and remain standing so they can dispense communion.

The one Brother who is on canes props himself up on both canes. I don’t have that kind of strength in my arms, but he does, that leaves his hands free to distribute communion. But he is standing. If you knelt down he can’t reach you, because he can’t bend over or he’ll lose his balance and fall. You have to stand in front of him.

The other is in a wheel chair and the chair is up on the sanctuary which is slightly elevated. If you kneel, he has to lean forward and he can fall. If you stand and put out your hand he can safely place the Eucharist in your hand.

That’s why I mean by we HAVE to stand.

No one minds, because we have had this religious order for years and they have become part of the community. This is the only parish that the order runs that has a church and friary that is accessible for people religious with disablities. Everything is on one level.

Our community has another friary in Michigan where the Major Superior assigns Brother priests with Learning Disabilities, because the Superior of that House is an expert in Learning Disabilities.

Keep in mind, that the Major Superior of a Religious Order is the one who calls a man to the priesthood. Once he calls, the Church teaches that Christ has called. He is the Ordinary of the Community, just as a Bishop is the Ordinary of his diocese.

JR

 

[DustinsDad]

Should men be ordained who may have lost several fingers? Some are not fit to be priests because the physically cannot do what is required. I’m sure these priests are holy, and this situation is very saddening. However, there are other things they could do that would help the parish aside from offering Mass and distributing Communion. We all have crosses to bear.

Though some express shock at this - it’s a fact that certain physical disabilities almost always prohibit ordination. Being confined to a wheelchair, lack of fingers, hands, or limbs, blindness, etc.

I don’t know all the details, as I’m sure it varies from place to place, but good grief - some common sense should apply here folks.

DD