“This gathering is not called by a bishop”

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These are not dissenting Catholics, this lay group is discussing issues that need to be discussed. The laity in this modern age is not like in past generations, they are learned adults with a valid voice to be heard in matters.:cool:
 
Why are the people labled as “dissenting” ? If I have a few friends over for grilled steaks and spiritual discussion do I need the Bishops approval before I can do that or I’m considered “dissenting”?

Bahhhh lables …
 
Perhaps this “gathering” is not dissenting… they just aren’t Catholics anymore.

Their views have already been “discussed” by the Church, and ruled on. Move on, what ever you are.

.
 
b_justb said:
Why are the people labled as “dissenting” ? If I have a few friends over for grilled steaks and spiritual discussion do I need the Bishops approval before I can do that or I’m considered “dissenting”?

Bahhhh lables …
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Maybe because they’re pretending it is a synod when in fact the bishop won’t allow that:
The organizers of the Southern California Lay Convocation **say it is “in its intention, a synod.” **But, because “Canon Law defines a synod as a council called by a bishop,” and “this gathering is NOT called by a bishop, the steering committee has chosen the term ‘Convocation.’"
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Also they don’t know what they’re talking about:
San Francisco Archbishop George Niederauer, who attended the convocation, noted afterwards that attendees displayed “confusion and misunderstanding…
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NewUlm1976_2000 said:
1.These are not dissenting Catholics,
2. this lay group is discussing issues that need to be discussed. 3. The laity in this modern age is not like in past generations, they are learned adults with a valid voice to be heard in matters.:cool:
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  1. What in your definition what IS a ‘dissenting catholic?’ Seems to me it is a person or group that has a conviction that the teaching authority of the Church is wrong on an issue, they are right, and they seek a way to impose their improvement on the Church. Seems to fit the article to me.
  2. Are they discussing it or are they strategizing ways to force a change? Big difference. I wonder how much discussion in defense of Church teaching would be tolerated at such a gathering?
  3. You’re kidding right? Betcha dollars to donuts that over half the attendees at the mid-morning Sunday mass at a parish of your choice couldn’t define ‘transubstantiation’, couldn’t recite the entire Nicene Creed without help (much less pass a simple quiz about what certain elements mean) and haven’t been to confession in over a year. Yeah, real progress over prior generations. :rolleyes: We went from ignorant, but obedient to ignorant and defiant. Go team.
Cartainly there exist mature members of the laity that deserve the opportunity of dialogue on hard and difficult issues. Problem for the bishops is that you cannot extend an opportunity for that without the event being overrun with activists pushing their agenda rather than seeking to understand what the Church teaches and WHY. IMO, that can’t be done in a group gathering. It COULD and should be done, perhaps on a regular write-in letter teaching column/response basis in the diocesan newspaper. Unfortunately, the office of bishop does not automatically include the grace of leadership and wisdom.

P.S. I put on junior high and high school retreats in the Winona Diocese back in the 93/94 school year. Didn’t make a NET retreat in that time frame by any chance, didjya?
 
Even with the nicest spin on it, this “convention” couldn’t pass the smell test.

Check out Diogenes’ entry Serial Delusion
What brought serial dilution to mind was a number of recent articles in which Catholics are invited to embrace “a diversity of religious perspectives” about teachings that belong to the deposit of faith.

Here’s what’s going on: doctrinal differences are reductively treated as theological differences, which are in turn reductively treated as methodological differences, which are reductively treated as aesthetic preferences, i.e., matters of taste.
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Scottgun said:
Even with the nicest spin on it, this “convention” couldn’t pass the smell test.

Check out Diogenes’ entry Serial Delusion
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Wouldn’t it be cool if the church would send an official in full regalia with perhaps Knights of Columbus marching in front of him to deliver a formal anathema to this meeting? Like if they walked in right in the middle of a speech and proclaimed the anathema then walked out? 😃
 
manualman said:
  1. What in your definition what IS a ‘dissenting catholic?’ Seems to me it is a person or group that has a conviction that the teaching authority of the Church is wrong on an issue, they are right, and they seek a way to impose their improvement on the Church. Seems to fit the article to me.
  2. Are they discussing it or are they strategizing ways to force a change? Big difference. I wonder how much discussion in defense of Church teaching would be tolerated at such a gathering?
  3. You’re kidding right? Betcha dollars to donuts that over half the attendees at the mid-morning Sunday mass at a parish of your choice couldn’t define ‘transubstantiation’, couldn’t recite the entire Nicene Creed without help (much less pass a simple quiz about what certain elements mean) and haven’t been to confession in over a year. Yeah, real progress over prior generations. :rolleyes: We went from ignorant, but obedient to ignorant and defiant. Go team.
Cartainly there exist mature members of the laity that deserve the opportunity of dialogue on hard and difficult issues. Problem for the bishops is that you cannot extend an opportunity for that without the event being overrun with activists pushing their agenda rather than seeking to understand what the Church teaches and WHY. IMO, that can’t be done in a group gathering. It COULD and should be done, perhaps on a regular write-in letter teaching column/response basis in the diocesan newspaper. Unfortunately, the office of bishop does not automatically include the grace of leadership and wisdom.

P.S. I put on junior high and high school retreats in the Winona Diocese back in the 93/94 school year. Didn’t make a NET retreat in that time frame by any chance, didjya?
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  1. There is nothing as a “dissenting” Catholic in my eyes. There are differences in opinion, but we are an adult church in this modern age. People are more educated than ever before. Adults should be able to exchange opinions without problems.
  2. They can do both with no problem. Discussing is allowed, but also in a way to show the hierarchy that there is no “nightmare in the closet” (think Opus in Bloom County). Change is not a forbidden word in the Church, and often in official circles it is suppressed by a mix of turf protecting and an inability to see the broad issue as it relates to today.
  3. I am not so sure. If you are talking many children that make up most of a Sunday morning mass, but not most adults. Most who have gone through CCD know that term. The laity is not as ignorant as you think.
As far as newspapers go, I have seen many dioceses where bishops micromanage it pretty close and would not allow even that option. This has come about because there was nobody to listen, which means alot to many people.

Nope, no NET retreats in 93-94, I was elsewhere at the time.
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
  1. There is nothing as a “dissenting” Catholic in my eyes. There are differences in opinion, but we are an adult church in this modern age. People are more educated than ever before. Adults should be able to exchange opinions without problems.
  2. They can do both with no problem. Discussing is allowed, but also in a way to show the hierarchy that there is no “nightmare in the closet” (think Opus in Bloom County). Change is not a forbidden word in the Church, and often in official circles it is suppressed by a mix of turf protecting and an inability to see the broad issue as it relates to today.
  3. I am not so sure. If you are talking many children that make up most of a Sunday morning mass, but not most adults. Most who have gone through CCD know that term. The laity is not as ignorant as you think.
As far as newspapers go, I have seen many dioceses where bishops micromanage it pretty close and would not allow even that option. This has come about because there was nobody to listen, which means alot to many people.

Nope, no NET retreats in 93-94, I was elsewhere at the time.
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So you think the Sacrament of Matrimony should be extended to homosexual couples? Or that woman and/or married men should be allowed ordination? If that is the case, good luck convincing Pope Benedict or anyone else who takes the Bible or Church Tradition seriously on those points and others.:rolleyes:
 
  1. There is nothing as a “dissenting” Catholic in my eyes
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So a Catholic who denies the Trinity is not dissenting? It’s just a difference of opinion?
 
Catholic29 said:
So you think the Sacrament of Matrimony should be extended to homosexual couples? Or that woman and/or married men should be allowed ordination? If that is the case, good luck convincing Pope Benedict or anyone else who takes the Bible or Church Tradition seriously on those points and others.:rolleyes:
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It is off topic, but yes I do.

Traditions change over time, the Vatican moves slowly, but in a few decades it will have caught up to our time. The Church moves forward, and this is what this group is doing, creating discussion points for future parts of the Church to refer back to as real world examples to see there is nothing to fear from change.
 
Heh…I run a support group for victims/survivors, you know, like what Christ teaches, and it’s not approved by my Bishop. I don’t wait for his approval either, and I respect him. Does that make me an “evil” Catholic? Noooooooooooo.

Best of luck with your gathering! May it produce “good fruit”!!
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
Traditions change over time, the Vatican moves slowly, but in a few decades it will have caught up to our time. The Church moves forward, and this is what this group is doing, creating discussion points for future parts of the Church to refer back to as real world examples to see there is nothing to fear from change.
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I don’t think you have a very firm grasp of what the Church claims to be. Morality does not change with time; what you dismiss as mere traditions the Church considers moral certainties and there is no more chance of her “catching up to our time” than there is of Martians landing in Central Park.

Ender
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
It is off topic, but yes I do.

Traditions change over time, the Vatican moves slowly, but in a few decades it will have caught up to our time. The Church moves forward, and this is what this group is doing, creating discussion points for future parts of the Church to refer back to as real world examples to see there is nothing to fear from change.
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Point well taken, but it has been my understanding that eternal truths such as Scripture (the Bible) and Church Tradition don’t change over time, or with the times, as far as the Vatican, councils and popes over the past 20 centuries are concerned.

Nor have I heard of such Church Traditions as “Lay Convocations”. Thats a new one in my book.:rolleyes:
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
It is off topic, but yes I do.

Traditions change over time, the Vatican moves slowly, but in a few decades it will have caught up to our time. The Church moves forward, and this is what this group is doing, creating discussion points for future parts of the Church to refer back to as real world examples to see there is nothing to fear from change.
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Complete and utter heresy.
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
It is off topic, but yes I do.

Traditions change over time, the Vatican moves slowly, but in a few decades it will have caught up to our time. The Church moves forward, and this is what this group is doing, creating discussion points for future parts of the Church to refer back to as real world examples to see there is nothing to fear from change.
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So you then dissent on the Church’s teaching on the Sacrament of Matrimony. Your position is not a mere difference of opinion.
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
These are not dissenting Catholics, this lay group is discussing issues that need to be discussed. The laity in this modern age is not like in past generations, they are learned adults with a valid voice to be heard in matters.:cool:
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A group of lay Catholics gathering to promote the homosexual lifestyle or same-sex marriage is not a legitimate complaint against the church’s teaching. No convocation, synod, discussion, etc needs to take place anymore than a group of lay people meeting to discuss spouse swapping or incestuous relationships and challenging the church to declare these morally licit.
 
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