1,100 Excess Brain Damaged Babies are Born Yearly in US Due to Previous Abortions

[AntonV]

Again Norbert you make my point. YOU need to do some research here. It seems to me you are just regurgitating the secular line on a wide array of issues (birth control, abortion et al).

For instance people who use NFP have a divorce rate around 3% compared to the national average of 66%. Why?

I don’t mean this to be judgmental, but I have found that people who espouse this type of rhetoric usually are trying to rationalize or justify some type of behavior. I pray this is not the case with you Norbert. Since this is a Catholic board, I will point out that the teachings of the Church aren’t just a set of rules to control people’s sex lives, but are lights to the path of our salvation. But an added bonus (bad term, but I will use it any way) to following the Church’s teachings are you live a happier more fulfilled life (see my NFP example above).

I realize you have stated several times that you are not for abortion. But in all honesty you sound as one who says, “I personally oppose abortion, but I don’t want to push my morality on other people.” Sorry it doesn’t work for me. Either we stand up against evil or submit to it (whether it is casual or direct).

I will keep you in my prayers.

Anton

 

[AntonV]

Amy I will also keep you and your two children in my prayers. God bless you for such a courageous sharing. My sister was a victim of abortion also.

Know that God loves you and your children so much.

Again from the bottom of my heart thank you,

Anton

 

[Lisa_N]

norbert:

My point is not that abortion is a good or desirable thing at all, just that safe abortion is preferred over unsafe abortion. Sure, complications of legal abortion can occur, just like with any other medical procedure. Making abortion illegal is not going to make it go away, though. If the concern (as initially posted) is about the possible consequences for future pregnancies after abortion because of its potential for uterine rupture, etc, then the way to allay that concern is to keep the procedure legal, where it can be performed in controlled, medical environments under the supervision of licensed physicians.

Norbert you are contradicting your own argument. Abortions ARE being done legally in controlled medical environments. There are STILL complications, there are deaths, there are women rendered sterile or who have subsequent problems in pregnancy or birth. So you haven’t made your point at all.

What is not happening is educating women on the consequences. Abortion is big business now and women are literally run through the ‘mill’ of these big providers. They are not told of the possible complications or problems that might develop years later. Were they given this education don’t you think some of them would reconsider?

Lisa N

 

[ames61]

AntonV:

Amy I will also keep you and your two children in my prayers. God bless you for such a courageous sharing. My sister was a victim of abortion also.

Know that God loves you and your children so much.

Again from the bottom of my heart thank you,

Anton

Thank you Anton. My prayers to your sister as well. It is only through the grace of Christ and the work of the Church that I have been able to see His forgiveness and love in this and to acknowledge the children who are waiting for me in heaven. Frankly I believe their prayers brought me into this Church.

John Paul II, himself, in Evangelium Vitae, said that the women who find Christ in the aftermath of abortion can be some of the most eloquent defenders of life. I don’t know about eloquent, other than that the Truth will always win out. And if it takes those of us to have succumbed to the Lie to expose the Lie, then so be it.

People like Norbert are doing what they see as best by defending the rights of the women. Now its up to the women to say in all charity, “Thanks, but no thanks”. We need to be protected from tragic decisions, not enabled.

In Christ,
Amy

 

[norbert]

Lisa N:

Norbert you are contradicting your own argument. Abortions ARE being done legally in controlled medical environments. There are STILL complications, there are deaths, there are women rendered sterile or who have subsequent problems in pregnancy or birth. So you haven’t made your point at all.

What is not happening is educating women on the consequences. Abortion is big business now and women are literally run through the ‘mill’ of these big providers. They are not told of the possible complications or problems that might develop years later. Were they given this education don’t you think some of them would reconsider?

Lisa N

My point is that complications from abortion will be higher if abortion is illegal and performed out of the watchful eye of regulated medical practice. Complications of appendectomy or any other medical procedure would also be higher if illegal and performed in back-alley clinics.

 

[ames61]

norbert:

My point is that complications from abortion will be higher if abortion is illegal and performed out of the watchful eye of regulated medical practice. Complications of appendectomy or any other medical procedure would also be higher if illegal and performed in back-alley clinics.

Norbert,
Abortion, by the very nature of what it is, has long reaching and long lasting complications. Premature birth, CP are just more of the varied physical consequences, which pro aborts will continue to dismiss as hyperbole, just as they have the breast cancer connection. One of the problems of assessing the risks of a “safe” legal abortion is that women consistently underreport their abortions. If you added up the number of women who will admit to their physician of a previous abortion, the total would be far less than 45 million abortions performed in the past 32 years. This is a secret women guard with their life. Most women would never respond to some anonymous medical researcher that they have had an abortion. I never told my physicians about my own, even at the risk of complicating the pregnancies of the 4 children I have now.

Thus if you try to do a study of how abortion has affected future pregancy complications, cancer, depression, attempted suicide, anything, you are depending on their existing medical records (which may not be complete if they went to a different clinic for the abortion-very very very likely) or self reporting (consistently unreliable for abortion). So right now it is impossible for you or any one else to say that women in society are statistically physically better off for having had access to safe legal abortions.

I would bet my bottom dollar that we are not better off physically, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that spiritually and psychologically we are far worse off.

Do you remember Lorrena Bobbit? Did you know that her assault on her husband was in the midst of a classic abortion flashback on the heels of the 3rd anniversary of the abortion her husband forced her to have? (see Forbidden Grief, by Theresa Burke, pg 105)

**There is no such thing as a safe abortion. Abortion is intrinsically evil, and eventually the consequences of the “choice” catch up to those who make the choice. ** Please, please pray about your attitude on this. If you truly value the women, consider whether fighting for this option is in their best interests. Not just the short term interest of making the problem go away.

In Christ,
amy

 

[Shinobu]

Norbert you use the example of the “scared 16 year old girl”, now instead of that girl going off to have an abortion, why not have loving and careing parents and family and friends supporting her in having the child? It is ignorant to assume any woman who has a child under the age of 18 is going to live a doomed life.

Is there any statistics to prove that the brunt of woman going into abortion clinics are “scared 16 year old girls”? Of the number of “scared 16 year old girls” going in, don’t you think quite a few are probably PUSHED into doing so?

 

[Lisa_N]

norbert:

My point is that complications from abortion will be higher if abortion is illegal and performed out of the watchful eye of regulated medical practice. Complications of appendectomy or any other medical procedure would also be higher if illegal and performed in back-alley clinics.

BAHAHAHA, watchful eye of the medical practice? Oh my you haven’t been reading the papers. There have been many problems with legal, appropriately staffed clinics. They are very hard to shut down in spite of multiple violations, women dying or having serious complications. How about the baby born alive at the clinic that was not assisted by the “regulated medical practice?”

Here’s the reality, even though abortion is legal, it is getting harder to obtain because fewer providers want to be involved. Clinics cannot get employees to stay. The turnover and the substandard kind practitioner willing to do these procedures increase the risk. All while this procedure is perfectly legal. As it becomes less and less appealing to medical providers, the kind of providers who are attracted to this practice degenerates. Even Howard Dean, a very secular individual said he would not do abortions. This is not the practice attracting the best and brightest I assure you

Lisa N

 

[ames61]

Shinobu:

Of the number of “scared 16 year old girls” going in, don’t you think quite a few are probably PUSHED into doing so?

That goes for any age. As long as its legal women will be dragged into clinics by their husbands, boyfriends and even fathers. Listen to one of those tragic stories and tell me where were her rights?

 

[norbert]

Shinobu:

Norbert you use the example of the “scared 16 year old girl”, now instead of that girl going off to have an abortion, why not have loving and careing parents and family and friends supporting her in having the child?

Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone had that loving, caring family and circle of friends, eager to provide support for everything? Many teenagers have no support at all.

 

[AntonV]

Norbert,

Please read Amy’s posts. She is that scared 16 year old that had no support. Read what here witness says…

PLEASE!!!

Anton

 

[norbert]

Lisa N:

BAHAHAHA, watchful eye of the medical practice? Oh my you haven’t been reading the papers. There have been many problems with legal, appropriately staffed clinics. They are very hard to shut down in spite of multiple violations, women dying or having serious complications. How about the baby born alive at the clinic that was not assisted by the “regulated medical practice?”

Here’s the reality, even though abortion is legal, it is getting harder to obtain because fewer providers want to be involved. Clinics cannot get employees to stay. The turnover and the substandard kind practitioner willing to do these procedures increase the risk. All while this procedure is perfectly legal. As it becomes less and less appealing to medical providers, the kind of providers who are attracted to this practice degenerates. Even Howard Dean, a very secular individual said he would not do abortions. This is not the practice attracting the best and brightest I assure you

Lisa N

Thanks for laughing at my post, but you still don’t understand my post. Do you think that complications from abortion would not increase if the procedure was done illegally? I think the complications would increase because the abortion would be less likely to be performed by a licensed physician, and I think the severity of the complications would increase because both the patient and the abortion provider would be leary of seeking necessary medical treatment (for bleeding or infection or whatever) because of the fear of going to jail. I never said that complications don’t occur with legal abortions. Complications can occur from appendectomy or any medical procedure. Read my post before you scoff at it and laugh.

 

[norbert]

That goes for any age. As long as its legal women will be dragged into clinics by their husbands, boyfriends and even fathers. Listen to one of those tragic stories and tell me where were her rights?

Yes, women can’t make up their own minds about things without men. That is a good point.

 

[Lisa_N]

norbert:

Thanks for laughing at my post, but you still don’t understand my post. Do you think that complications from abortion would not increase if the procedure was done illegally? I think the complications would increase because the abortion would be less likely to be performed by a licensed physician, and I think the severity of the complications would increase because both the patient and the abortion provider would be leary of seeking necessary medical treatment (for bleeding or infection or whatever) because of the fear of going to jail. I never said that complications don’t occur with legal abortions. Complications can occur from appendectomy or any medical procedure. Read my post before you scoff at it and laugh.

Norbert I wasn’t laughing at your post but at the assumption that the medical profession is highly regulated and carefully monitored. It is not. It is very very hard for a doctor to lose a license, in spite of what later proves to be egregious errors. Again if you’d kept up with some of the news (you aren’t American right? so maybe you aren’t getting this) but there have been several clinics that have been charged with unbelievable violations of the laws. They continue to practice year after year and it literally takes an act of Congress to shut them down. Our paper just featured a physician who has finally lost his license after decades of bungling to his patients’ detriment. This isn’t all that unusual. I’m in this business norbert, I see it all the time. Nothing like seeing sausage made to know you won’t eat it!

Here’s a thought, if abortion were illegal there would be fewer abortions don’t you think? Fewer abortions, fewer women with complications. I do grant that if both practitioner and patient were violating the law, they would be less likely to seek medical treatment following the procedure. But I think to continue to justify an intrinsically evil act on the chance that it makes the act safer (for mother not baby!!) is simply illogical. It’s against the law to drive drunk so should we insist auto makers provide crash cages in passenger cars in case someone encounters a drunk driver or is one? This is an evil, it should be stopped, not accommodated or made easier.

Lisa N

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

norbert:

Yes, women can’t make up their own minds about things without men. That is a good point.

Please Norbert:nope: Stop with the dramatics:nope: They have rap songs that even glorify it saying things like if the bi*** gets pregnant make that bi*** abort.Of course I know you aren’t rying to say that abortion is not "helping out "men who want to have sex and accept responsibility

 

[ames61]

norbert:

Yes, women can’t make up their own minds about things without men. That is a good point.

Norbert,
Wow. I hope I’m taking this the wrong way. I’m talking about the 15 yr old I know who showed up at her abortion with a black eye from her boyfriend. Or the immigrant woman whos husband decides on an abortion, and she can’t even speak the language well enough to make her objections known, plus is scared to death her husband will kick her out in a foreign land. I’ve met them both, have you?

By the way, care to respond to any of my other remarks? I was hoping this would be a real dialogue. If you truly feel that having abortion legal is the safest way to protect the hearts and minds and souls and bodies of women then you should be able to discuss all aspects of that stance, not just the ones which fit the common mold of being pro choice.

Once you find yourself in the position of an unwanted pregnancy no choice is easy. At least be honest and examine all sides of all options.

In Christ,
amy

 

[Shinobu]

norbert:

Yes, women can’t make up their own minds about things without men. That is a good point.

Let’s not tag this only on men. Women have probably forced other women into an abortion. My post was not a point at men only. I was thinking more along the lines of the family, mother and father more specifically.

In response to you Norbert, we do not always have someone to comfort us, by our side. This does not mean that the supposed ‘easy way out’ is the way for us to go and this does not mean that the supposed ‘easy way out’ is going to solve our problems and heal all our wounds. Do you think the potential suffering a woman has after abortion is really worth it? Weither it is made illegal or kept legal, it will not undo the harm done to a womans mental health. Education on this is what we need, not a candy-coating on an easy way out.

 

[norbert]

ames61:

Norbert,
Wow. I hope I’m taking this the wrong way. I’m talking about the 15 yr old I know who showed up at her abortion with a black eye from her boyfriend. Or the immigrant woman whos husband decides on an abortion, and she can’t even speak the language well enough to make her objections known, plus is scared to death her husband will kick her out in a foreign land. I’ve met them both, have you?

So what’s the ideal situation for those ladies? Force them to have babies? Will that make things better? Heck, maybe these abused women are trying to do the right thing - if they are being abused, they fear a baby will only make things worse and the baby itself will end up abused or shaken or killed.

 

[norbert]

ames61:

By the way, care to respond to any of my other remarks? I was hoping this would be a real dialogue. If you truly feel that having abortion legal is the safest way to protect the hearts and minds and souls and bodies of women then you should be able to discuss all aspects of that stance, not just the ones which fit the common mold of being pro choice.

Once you find yourself in the position of an unwanted pregnancy no choice is easy. At least be honest and examine all sides of all options.

In Christ,
amy

I totally agree - unwanted pregancy is never, ever a good thing. My wife was pregnant at 16 and delivered a child and gave it up for adoption. Twenty years later, she is still scarred by that experience. I don’t agree with abortion, but I also don’t agree with the rhetoric and fetus-centricity of many on the pro-life side. Every pregnancy involves two lives. It’s not just about the fetus/baby, but the life of the mother is impacted tremendously by pregnancy no matter what happens. Call me a crazy, bleeding-heart Catholic, but I have a lot of sympathy for women forced into desperate situations because of unwanted pregnancy. No woman has an abortion for fun. Abortion is not going to go away no matter what we do, and I think illegal abortion would be of much greater risk for the mother than legal abortion. I also can’t imagine throwing a 16 year-old girl in jail because she’s trying to end her unplanned pregnancy. As a society I think we should try to prevent unwanted pregnancy as much as is possible, by whatever means work best, but I don’t think illegal abortion is a magic answer for anything.

 

[Lisa_N]

norbert:

So what’s the ideal situation for those ladies? Force them to have babies? Will that make things better? Heck, maybe these abused women are trying to do the right thing - if they are being abused, they fear a baby will only make things worse and the baby itself will end up abused or shaken or killed.

Norbert it’s too LATE to come up with an ideal situation. We have to deal the hand we are dealt. You need to study domestic abuse a little more before making these assumptions. If a woman is being abused to the extent that she fears for her life or the life of her child, then she needs support and assistance to get out of the situation. She will not be helped by the abortion. It is a permanent solution to a temporary problem (pregnancy) but not a permanent solution to the more worrisome issue, the abuse.

Do you honestly think if a woman has an abortion at the behest of an abusive man that the abuse will stop? I assure you it does not. The man doesn’t abuse the woman because she did or didn’t do something, it is a control issue. The batterer will continue to control the woman and abuse her with or without an abortion. This is one of those behaviors that is virtually impossible to ‘cure’ because it is so tied into a person’s identity. A woman and children need to be removed and protected from a batterer, they do not need to continue to accommodate his terrorism.

Regardless of your views on the abortion itself, this step does NOT help an abusive situation at all.

Lisa N