1 Corinthians 15:31 I Die Daily

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The only acceptable answer I could have given is yours, and you wouldn’t tell us what it was. :confused:
Po18guy;j I am not confused and it seems you can’t read for I said go to the new post on The Kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom Of God! God Bless! Jerry Kelso
 
No dice, Jerry. It is impossible to beat the house in a game of cards. If you are up to snuff on your bible, here’s a thread custom made for you:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6816569#post6816569

Hint: wear Nomex!
Po18guy: I read that site.
  1. I do believe in history of the bible that’s why I study it. The fact is you know more about catholic history than jewish history and the jews were the ones given the oracles of God not catholics who are gentiles. Just because the catholic church has a little truth and did much good to help preserve the bible doesn’t mean they know how to rightly divide the word or teach it the right way. The jewish leaders had the truth but they added to and were legalistic in their motive. The proof is in the pudding with proper history and proper exegesis. So try to get some proof in your pudding for a change. God bless! Jerry Kelso
 
Po18guy: I read that site.
  1. I do believe in history of the bible that’s why I study it. The fact is you know more about catholic history than jewish history and the jews were the ones given the oracles of God not catholics who are gentiles. Just because the catholic church has a little truth and did much good to help preserve the bible doesn’t mean they know how to rightly divide the word or teach it the right way. The jewish leaders had the truth but they added to and were legalistic in their motive. The proof is in the pudding with proper history and proper exegesis. So try to get some proof in your pudding for a change. God bless! Jerry Kelso
Jerry, do you consider yourself to be an authority or expert in scripture? What credentials can you provide for this? I would guess that you are a member of the laity as I am. If your basis for your expertise is the bible, know that I have eight of them currently, with another to arrive shortly. Yet, I am no expert and never will be. Without authoritative interpretation, the bible is a foundation of sand (ref. 2 Peter 1:20, 3:16). The devil quoted scripture! Was he right?

I chose the Catholic Church. If I was not convicted of her absolute truth, I would never have ventured here, or remained here. All I saw in bible-based communities was division, which is of the evil one. I know that individual members were pious and faithful, but they constantly disagreed. Their testimony is like that given against Jesus: None of it agreed (Mark 14:59). That is not by the leading of the Holy Spirit. It cannot be.
 
Jerry, do you consider yourself to be an authority or expert in scripture? What credentials can you provide for this? I would guess that you are a member of the laity as I am. If your basis for your expertise is the bible, know that I have eight of them currently, with another to arrive shortly. Yet, I am no expert and never will be. Without authoritative interpretation, the bible is a foundation of sand (ref. 2 Peter 1:20, 3:16). The devil quoted scripture! Was he right?

I chose the Catholic Church. If I was not convicted of her absolute truth, I would never have ventured here, or remained here. All I saw in bible-based communities was division, which is of the evil one. I know that individual members were pious and faithful, but they constantly disagreed. Their testimony is like that given against Jesus: None of it agreed (Mark 14:59). That is not by the leading of the Holy Spirit. It cannot be./Quote
Po18guy:
First of all; Paul said we’re supposed to be saying the same thing. It’s not about one being smarter than the other for there will always be someone smarter than the next.
  1. As I said before I have been given the apostle’s doctrine by an apostle and you won’t believe me. Other than that I have studied proper exegesis and studied many different denominations and what they believe and why. This is because denominations are not scriptural and usually divide us.
  2. The basic arguments and accusations of protestants and catholics are similar. There are protestants who believe in apostolic authority but in some realms it’s a misunderstood thing. Some apostles are apprehensive because of persecution. The biggest difference between catholic and protestant apostolic authority is the cc is more historically connected. The protestants major on more of letting the bible interpreting itself. Both are needed in the proper perspective and both could take a little from each other. There are certain passages that some catholics will get right that some protestants won’t get and vice versa.
  3. Two thirds of the Bible is about law and grace and the mixing both of these cause confusion and usually the struggle. The extreme of law mentality produces carnality and condemnation because of self effort. Some good law keepers that are focused on keeping a code of ethics get sidetracked and become proud of their doctrines and traditions. The real good law keepers are genuine but may not be aware of the advantages of the new covenant. This is not a sleight on these people for some of them that are more perceptive to God than those who understand about the new covenant but don’t live according to the promises. Grace produces the fruits of the spirit and victory through love because of who God is and who we are in him the power within us of resurrection power. There are those at the same time who take advantage of grace like in Romans 6. People thought the more they sinned that, when they came back to God grace would magnify God more. Many OSAS believe this and this is why they don’t mind being carnal and why they don’t mind putting their failure in sin on God.
  4. . I’ll try to conclude with a couple of examples that can cause wrong doctrine or at least defiency in a christian’s life under grace.
    A). If a christian misunderstands Jesus teachings under the mosaic law to the jewish people who were backslidden and teach it doctrinally can cause many christians to live defeated and feel like they are backslidden all the time and have to rededicate their lives everyday and have a negative works mentality. Matthew said, Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted. Mourn means repent. The jews were out of covenant during Jesus day.
    The jews were salt and light of the world. If the salt lost it’s savor it’s no good but to be trodden down and good for nothing. This was not a message to the church for Jesus said later the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and the new testament church wasn’t officially started. Unless you understand the historical context how can you understand what it means to the church?
  5. The same way with Romans 7 and Paul’s frailty of man when he said; I do the things I don’t want to do and the things I don’t want to do I do etc. If they believe this is Paul as a new covenant believer then they run the risk of feeling that it is normal for a new covenant believer to live defeated. It doesn’t mean that we can’t fall into that state but it shouldn’t be the norm and you can’t be consistently victorious. If a person says they can’t help but sin then, what it says to your subconcious is that satan has more power to keep you in sin than God has to keep you from sin. How you believe about sin will usually determine how they live their life.
    The fact is a christian can go to extreme on anything whether it’s apostolic authority, spiritualizing scripture when it should be literal or literal when it is more spiritual. There is a proper perspective and no matter how much we know we need to stay open and pliable to the spirit. The bible says to be like the bereans to see whether or not they say is true. It didn’t say read their doctrinal interpretation until you understand it but to read, study, and understand the bible to see if their interpretation is correct. The same goes for those who use a few scriptures that sound like it’s the completion on a subject without all the scriptures on that given subject and correct context. The objective is to say the same thing so there be no schisms in the body. God bless! Jerry kelso
 
Well now, you reveal a little more. I appreciate it very much.
First of all; Paul said we’re supposed to be saying the same thing. It’s not about one being smarter than the other for there will always be someone smarter than the next.
And, a greater authority, Jesus Christ, said to “Deny self, take up your cross, then follow me”. Now, this very same denial of self produces unity, which is every Christian’s goal - or should be.
  1. As I said before I have been given the apostle’s doctrine by an apostle and you won’t believe me. Other than that I have studied proper exegesis and studied many different denominations and what they believe and why. This is because denominations are not scriptural and usually divide us.
Amen! We are not to have “factions”, Saint Paul teaches. But,a greater authority, Jesus, also prayed that we be one, as He and the Father are one. Now, we certainly differ on what an “apostle” is, I do believe. The Catholic Church does not claim to have Apostles, but rather successors to the Apostles. It is possible that you received it by private revelation, but it is Catholic teaching that it is not incumbent upon all believers to hold to such revelation. As to proper exegesis, who is your authority and who determines what is proper or improper? That is in scripture and must be followed, at Jesus’ command. Here, we differ.
  1. The basic arguments and accusations of protestants and catholics are similar. There are protestants who believe in apostolic authority but in some realms it’s a misunderstood thing. Some apostles are apprehensive because of persecution. The biggest difference between catholic and protestant apostolic authority is the cc is more historically connected. The protestants major on more of letting the bible interpreting itself. Both are needed in the proper perspective and both could take a little from each other. There are certain passages that some catholics will get right that some protestants won’t get and vice versa.
What you mean is that you personally disagree with those interpretations. Now, you and I agree on much - even in this post, but where do you and I go to solve an implacable difference of opinion? This is most important, because scripture constantly mentions disputes. Jesus gave us the correct answer, and Paul, of course, backed it up. But, where do we go?
  1. Two thirds of the Bible is about law and grace and the mixing both of these cause confusion and usually the struggle. The extreme of law mentality produces carnality and condemnation because of self effort. Some good law keepers that are focused on keeping a code of ethics get sidetracked and become proud of their doctrines and traditions. The real good law keepers are genuine but may not be aware of the advantages of the new covenant. This is not a sleight on these people for some of them that are more perceptive to God than those who understand about the new covenant but don’t live according to the promises. Grace produces the fruits of the spirit and victory through love because of who God is and who we are in him the power within us of resurrection power. There are those at the same time who take advantage of grace like in Romans 6. People thought the more they sinned that, when they came back to God grace would magnify God more. Many OSAS believe this and this is why they don’t mind being carnal and why they don’t mind putting their failure in sin on God.
But, the Just Judge will lay that sin back on their shoulders when they are in the judgment seat. Paul teaches that the Blood of Christ has freed us form the law (Mosaic law), and so it has.
  1. . I’ll try to conclude with a couple of examples that can cause wrong doctrine or at least defiency in a christian’s life under grace.
    A). If a christian misunderstands Jesus teachings under the mosaic law to the jewish people who were backslidden and teach it doctrinally can cause many christians to live defeated and feel like they are backslidden all the time and have to rededicate their lives everyday and have a negative works mentality. Matthew said, Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted. Mourn means repent. The jews were out of covenant during Jesus day.
Jesus clearly said that to love God first, and to love neighbor as oneself is the basis of the law and the prophets. This has not, and cannot change. We are all held bound by the decalogue.

To be continued…
 
The jews were salt and light of the world. If the salt lost it’s savor it’s no good but to be trodden down and good for nothing. This was not a message to the church for Jesus said later the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and the new testament church wasn’t officially started. Unless you understand the historical context how can you understand what it means to the church?
The Jews were, and are disobedient, and suffer still for that same disobedience. A woman of Jewish ancestry who recently became Catholic said that Judaism had a “deadness” to it. The salt lost its flavor.
  1. The same way with Romans 7 and Paul’s frailty of man when he said; I do the things I don’t want to do and the things I don’t want to do I do etc. If they believe this is Paul as a new covenant believer then they run the risk of feeling that it is normal for a new covenant believer to live defeated. It doesn’t mean that we can’t fall into that state but it shouldn’t be the norm and you can’t be consistently victorious. If a person says they can’t help but sin then, what it says to your subconcious is that satan has more power to keep you in sin than God has to keep you from sin. How you believe about sin will usually determine how they live their life.
I see it as more about the retention of free will. Saint Paul teaches us to put on the whole armor of God, since on this earth we do battle with the forces of this earth. We remain human, with all of our frailties, but Jesus has “overcome this world”. Indulge me a bit and I’ll quote a very wise Saint: “For whether we desire it or not, we shall be tempted. If we do not struggle, we shall not be victorious, nor shall we merit the crown of immortal glory which God has prepared for those of us who are victorious and triumphant. Let us fear neither the temptation nor the tempter, for if we make use of the shield of faith and the armor of truth, they shall have no power whatsoever over us” - Saint Francis de Sales.
The fact is a christian can go to extreme on anything whether it’s apostolic authority, spiritualizing scripture when it should be literal or literal when it is more spiritual. There is a proper perspective and no matter how much we know we need to stay open and pliable to the spirit.
Jesus Christ is extreme! He sent Apostles forth, and they appointed successors. I read and listen to them, because through them, we have the bible, as well as the oldest organization on earth, the Catholic Church. My faith and trust remain in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The bible says to be like the bereans to see whether or not they say is true.
Paul describes the nature of the Bereans as “more noble” than the Thessalonians, and describes their actions. Since what they scrutinized was OT scrolls, they were rather clearly reading the prophets to see if Jesus was the One. Thus, they were not Sadducees, who did not accept the prophets. But, you and I know that Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy, so we need both to study the scriptures as well as listen to Him. However, even the Bereans had to accept the non-scriptural oral Apostolic teaching from Paul. Otherwise, how would they have received the Gospel? None of the Gospel was written at that point. Who speaks for Him? “He who hears you hears Me”. Thus, we have successors to those same Apostles.
It didn’t say read their doctrinal interpretation until you understand it but to read, study, and understand the bible to see if their interpretation is correct.
Being Jews, their doctrine was that the Messiah was coming. Their reading was to see if Jesus was Him.
The same goes for those who use a few scriptures that sound like it’s the completion on a subject without all the scriptures on that given subject and correct context. The objective is to say the same thing so there be no schisms in the body. God bless! Jerry kelso
Thank you, Jerry. I must point out that the bible, a product of the Catholic Church, is 100% consistent with Catholic doctrine. Why? Because it is the Church that already existed which produced that same bible. Is there Catholic doctrine that is not in the bible? Certainly! The vast majority of what Jesus did and said is not in the bible, so the bible cannot be complete. It is “sufficient”, but Go does not desire us to have a “sufficient” relationship with Him He wants us to be as crazy about Him as He is about us. So, I want more than just sufficient.

We know also that divine revelation is but one of the means which our Lord uses to communicate with man. That is how Paul received the Gospel in the first place. He heard the Gospel before, and he read the prophets, but rejected it all. So, Paul did not receive the Gospel via scripture. Look beyond the bible. God does.

See? We have a different take on some things, but we agree on much more than you probably thought.
 
The Jews were, and are disobedient, and suffer still for that same disobedience. A woman of Jewish ancestry who recently became Catholic said that Judaism had a “deadness” to it. The salt lost its flavor.
I see it as more about the retention of free will. Saint Paul teaches us to put on the whole armor of God, since on this earth we do battle with the forces of this earth. We remain human, with all of our frailties, but Jesus has “overcome this world”. Indulge me a bit and I’ll quote a very wise Saint: “For whether we desire it or not, we shall be tempted. If we do not struggle, we shall not be victorious, nor shall we merit the crown of immortal glory which God has prepared for those of us who are victorious and triumphant. Let us fear neither the temptation nor the tempter, for if we make use of the shield of faith and the armor of truth, they shall have no power whatsoever over us” - Saint Francis de Sales.
Jesus Christ is extreme! He sent Apostles forth, and they appointed successors. I read and listen to them, because through them, we have the bible, as well as the oldest organization on earth, the Catholic Church. My faith and trust remain in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Paul describes the nature of the Bereans as “more noble” than the Thessalonians, and describes their actions. Since what they scrutinized was OT scrolls, they were rather clearly reading the prophets to see if Jesus was the One. Thus, they were not Sadducees, who did not accept the prophets. But, you and I know that Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy, so we need both to study the scriptures as well as listen to Him. However, even the Bereans had to accept the non-scriptural oral Apostolic teaching from Paul. Otherwise, how would they have received the Gospel? None of the Gospel was written at that point. Who speaks for Him? “He who hears you hears Me”. Thus, we have successors to those same Apostles.
Being Jews, their doctrine was that the Messiah was coming. Their reading was to see if Jesus was Him.
Thank you, Jerry. I must point out that the bible, a product of the Catholic Church, is 100% consistent with Catholic doctrine. Why? Because it is the Church that already existed which produced that same bible. Is there Catholic doctrine that is not in the bible? Certainly! The vast majority of what Jesus did and said is not in the bible, so the bible cannot be complete. It is “sufficient”, but Go does not desire us to have a “sufficient” relationship with Him He wants us to be as crazy about Him as He is about us. So, I want more than just sufficient.

We know also that divine revelation is but one of the means which our Lord uses to communicate with man. That is how Paul received the Gospel in the first place. He heard the Gospel before, and he read the prophets, but rejected it all. So, Paul did not receive the Gospel via scripture. Look beyond the bible. God does.

See? We have a different take on some things, but we agree on much more than you probably thought.
Po18guy: I’ve had protestants think I thought more like catholics and vice versa. My dad used to teach catholics about the Holy Spirit when I was in high school. Just because there have been many wrong teachings in the catholic church and wrong things behind closed doors the catholic church still believed in the virgin birth and the death, burial, and resurrection of christ among other things. Many protestants think the catholic church is already apostate. One of my cousins was catholic and talked about 7 steps to salvation etc., so catholic doctrine is not completely new to me…
You can be hide behind the church that don’t bother me but, you need to work on your exegesis. For example, Romans 7 you said was about freewill and that was about it. Do you not understand how important context is or it’s just not worth the time to figure it out or you can’t find the answer or just don’t know? Grace produces consistency in overcoming sin not the frailty of man and your freewill is motivated by love and not self effort, condemnation, and confliction like Paul had in Romans 7 under the law mentality. This is important to doctrine which you say the catholic church is right but obviously,you have not showed that you know or understand it. You are not going to change in your stance about the catholic church authority but, you need to dig a little deeper in exegesis. Good luck! Jerry kelso
 
Po18guy: I’ve had protestants think I thought more like catholics and vice versa. My dad used to teach catholics about the Holy Spirit when I was in high school. Just because there have been many wrong teachings in the catholic church and wrong things behind closed doors the catholic church still believed in the virgin birth and the death, burial, and resurrection of christ among other things. Many protestants think the catholic church is already apostate. One of my cousins was catholic and talked about 7 steps to salvation etc., so catholic doctrine is not completely new to me.
I have never heard of the 7 steps, so please don’t think that Catholics are taught this. We are saved by grace through faith - official Catholic doctrine that will never change. BUT, faith without works (of love, not of the law) is dead.
You can be hide behind the church that don’t bother me but, you need to work on your exegesis.
You see me as hiding. I see you as focusing on Paul, rather than Jesus. The Catholic Church is Christ-centered, as any Church founded by Christ must be, right? Paul and his scripture is a big part of our Church, but there are many more whom God has sent to bring the good news to us
For example, Romans 7 you said was about freewill and that was about it. Do you not understand how important context is or it’s just not worth the time to figure it out or you can’t find the answer or just don’t know? Grace produces consistency in overcoming sin not the frailty of man and your freewill is motivated by love and not self effort, condemnation, and confliction like Paul had in Romans 7 under the law mentality.
Paul was preaching to those under the law - the Bereans, for example. How else was he supposed to appeal to them? As to grace, we breathe by the grace of God. Yet, do we not possess free will? Love is an act of the will.
This is important to doctrine which you say the catholic church is right but obviously,you have not showed that you know or understand it. You are not going to change in your stance about the catholic church authority but, you need to dig a little deeper in exegesis. Good luck! Jerry kelso
Jerry, honestly, you seem focused too much on Paul, and almost obsessed with exegesis, rather than perfecting simple faith! With faith, all graces flow from on high. Why seek faith through understanding, when you can receive understanding through your faith? Jesus never once said “You exegesis has saved you”! He spoke about faith, and that is clearly what we are to have, plain and simple. I am not hiding, but rather clinging to the Church founded by Jesus Christ. You seem upset over what you perceive as intellectual laziness on my part, or just plain stupidity. I pray that I appear to be a fool for Christ, to use a phrase of Paul.

In any event, keep seeking the fulness of truth, wherever it leads you. Amen.
 
I have never heard of the 7 steps, so please don’t think that Catholics are taught this. We are saved by grace through faith - official Catholic doctrine that will never change. BUT, faith without works (of love, not of the law) is dead. You see me as hiding. I see you as focusing on Paul, rather than Jesus. The Catholic Church is Christ-centered, as any Church founded by Christ must be, right? Paul and his scripture is a big part of our Church, but there are many more whom God has sent to bring the good news to usPaul was preaching to those under the law - the Bereans, for example. How else was he supposed to appeal to them? As to grace, we breathe by the grace of God. Yet, do we not possess free will? Love is an act of the will. Jerry, honestly, you seem focused too much on Paul, and almost obsessed with exegesis, rather than perfecting simple faith! With faith, all graces flow from on high. Why seek faith through understanding, when you can receive understanding through your faith? Jesus never once said “You exegesis has saved you”! He spoke about faith, and that is clearly what we are to have, plain and simple. I am not hiding, but rather clinging to the Church founded by Jesus Christ. You seem upset over what you perceive as intellectual laziness on my part, or just plain stupidity. I pray that I appear to be a fool for Christ, to use a phrase of Paul.
In any event, keep seeking the fulness of truth, wherever it leads you. Amen.
.
Po18guy: I’m not upset at all about what you think is the truth or who you think has the truth. You are free to feel however you want about anything. I can’t make you do anything and I 'm not going to. What is not koshered is going back to saying the church believes this or doesn’t believe that and don’t say nothing else or don’t have any valid to back it up. You do this more times than not
As far as the 7 steps of salvation is compared to a protestant’s walk of faith. I’ve seen it posted on these forums. Personally, I don’t believe this interferes with saved by grace through faith and I wasn’t trying to insinuate that even though that sounded like the implication.
Jesus was born of a woman made under the mosaic law. The life of of jesus was the same culture, ethic, and the same dispensation as Moses and the children of Israel. The rules of this covenant and the mechanics of this covenant is different from Jesus and the new covenant of his death and resurrection. Love was in the old covenant and the new covenant. Jesus said later in John when talking to his disciples a new commandment I give to you is that you love one another as I have loved you. Why would jesus say this when the law already told them to love the lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy mind, and all thy soul. Jesus teachings to the people of Israel was do, do, do. The law was all about working up to a code of ethics. Now everythings about what Christ did in his finished work at the cross and through his death and resurrection. Jesus message to the jews in his earthly ministry was the message of law not new covenant. Paul’s message was not about the kingdom of heaven message given by jesus, but the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
I wasn’t perceiving as much as making an observation according to the lack of sufficient evidence of exegesis and I don’t believe in calling people stupid even though the sometimes it appears when they seem to being not fair in debate or discussion. Be fair is all I ask. I know basically what you believe so there’s no reason to keep reinterating it unless you have some kind of valid and relative information. God Bless! Jerry kelso
 
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