1 or 2 judgements?

[bona_fides_1]

In a prior discussion on baptism we got off on a tangent about the particular judgement and the general judgement. This is a new topic to link to so we do not derail the prior dialog.

Our Orthodox brethren do not hold to the Catholic teachings that a soul is judged immediately at death. Apparently they believe that it is held in a state waiting for the end of time before it is judged.

Catholic teaching is explicit. We teach that each soul is judged for heaven or hell immediately at death. But that the final extent of reward for souls in heaven or the final severity of punishment for souls in hell is not given until the 2nd judgement when the extend of all sins and good deeds have played out on all other souls in human history. The souls of both elect and wicked are reunited with bofy and this alone adds to the glory or the dimension/severity of punishment.

Ref Catechism:

*Particular Judgment
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

**V. THE LAST JUDGMENT **1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.628

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630
*

Comments?

BF

 

[Mickey]

Apparently they believe that it is held in a state waiting for the end of time before it is judged.

The soul after repose experiences either a foretaste of paradise or a foretaste of hell. Prayers for the dead can help us. At the final judgment, the eternal destination is decided. But we do not believe that your destination (for heaven or hell )is set in stone at the particular judgment.

 

[Norval]

Bona-Fides
I believe the catechism. The only question in my mind is what happens at the “Particular Judgment”. There are some indications from legends, stories and occurrences that indicate a soul after death usually encounters a light, a being or something that is so Holy, Pure and pure Love that the soul judges itself in relation to what it encounters and takes itself to where it needs to go. At times this does not happen but that is another subject we could use for a new thread.
There is a church in Rome not too far from the Vatican, it is the only neogothic style church in Rome. It is named the Sacred Heart of Suffrage. There is a room off the sacristy that is call the Museum of Purgatory.
There are some books and or manuscripts that deal with Purgatory. One thing one must remember is that all these are “private revelations” and are not dogma. One is not obliged to believe them. One of them is “An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory”, a Fatima House Publication and another is “Hungry souls” listing supernatural visits, messages and warnings from purgatory by Gerard J.M. Van Den Aardweg.
To me there is some "tongue in cheek’ humor as when the souls seeking solace go to a protestant seeking help that doesn’t believe in purgatory and they the living, many times believe the suffering souls are demons.
Mother Mary told Luci at Fatima that the greatest number of souls from purgatory are released on Christmas. (private revelation again).
I have a strange sense of humor and when someone tells me they do not believe in hell or purgatory, I tell them they will when they get there.
God Bless!!!

 

[Mickey]

I have a strange sense of humor and when someone tells me they do not believe in hell or purgatory, I tell them they will when they get there.

I do not subscribe to purgatory, (and neither did your Church for the first 1000 years or so), but we can be sure of the exsistence of hell. And it is no laughing matter.

 

[crazzeto]

I do not subscribe to purgatory, (and neither did your Church for the first 1000 years or so), but we can be sure of the exsistence of hell. And it is no laughing matter.

Mickey, that is false and you know it is… Not only is Purgatory a constant teaching, even your faith has historically accepted it and even today it continues to accept it despite all kinds of innovation in terms of views on the after life.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, that is false and you know it is.

You know very well that the undivided Church had no such doctrine and the Orthodox continue to have no such doctrine.

But this is not about purgatory. Start another thread if you want to discuss it.

And if you do not have anything to add to the dialogue then you are free to ignore the thread.

 

[bona_fides_1]

Bona-Fides
I believe the catechism. The only question in my mind is what happens at the “Particular Judgment”. There are some indications from legends, stories and occurrences that indicate a soul after death usually encounters a light, a being or something that is so Holy, Pure and pure Love that the soul judges itself in relation to what it encounters and takes itself to where it needs to go. At times this does not happen but that is another subject we could use for a new thread.
There is a church in Rome not too far from the Vatican, it is the only neogothic style church in Rome. It is named the Sacred Heart of Suffrage. There is a room off the sacristy that is call the Museum of Purgatory.
There are some books and or manuscripts that deal with Purgatory. One thing one must remember is that all these are “private revelations” and are not dogma. One is not obliged to believe them. One of them is “An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory”, a Fatima House Publication and another is “Hungry souls” listing supernatural visits, messages and warnings from purgatory by Gerard J.M. Van Den Aardweg.
To me there is some "tongue in cheek’ humor as when the souls seeking solace go to a protestant seeking help that doesn’t believe in purgatory and they the living, many times believe the suffering souls are demons.
Mother Mary told Luci at Fatima that the greatest number of souls from purgatory are released on Christmas. (private revelation again).
I have a strange sense of humor and when someone tells me they do not believe in hell or purgatory, I tell them they will when they get there.
God Bless!!!

Yes, I have read many of the saints private revelations and we are at liberty to do so as Catholics. The details are interesting but not necessary for our salvation. Yet, they give great motive to want to participate in indulgences to help the suffering souls - which is supernatural charity and a thing all Christians are called to do as part of our our Christian obligation. I liken the judgement to what happned in the garden when Adam and Eve tried to hide themselves from God out of shame. God of course found them and asked they why they are afraid of Him when they were previously friends. This is demonstrating the nature of sin and the how it brings shame and alienates us from God. But in the Genesis accounts it was man who was fearful and ashamed of God - God still sought them out when they had sinned. I think that at death a soul hardened in grave sin is too ashamed and too proud to face God and does leap into hell. For those who are not completely pure I believe that purgatory is opened as a Mercy so these souls can be purged of all remaining shame so they can again face God in confidence without blemish.

But the details of all this are not really all that important and the Church does not teach on things that are not safe to teach as perfectly true.

BF

 

[crazzeto]

You know very well that the undivided Church had no such doctrine and the Orthodox continue to have no such doctrine.

But this is not about purgatory. Start another thread if you want to discuss it.

And if you do not have anything to add to the dialogue then you are free to ignore the thread.

Perhaps you should delete the post I responded to, and be more juditious in the future if you really don’t want to discuss off topic things. But in fact I know what you say is patently false, on all accounts

I’ll be watching this thread, if you elect to delete your OT discussion pionts I’ll delete mine.

 

[bona_fides_1]

You know very well that the undivided Church had no such doctrine and the Orthodox continue to have no such doctrine.

But this is not about purgatory. Start another thread if you want to discuss it.

And if you do not have anything to add to the dialogue then you are free to ignore the thread.

Mickey why be so “short” with him? It was you that opined about purgatory and opened it up for discussion.

e.g.

I do not subscribe to purgatory, (and neither did your Church for the first 1000 years or so), but we can be sure of the exsistence of hell. And it is no laughing matter.

BF

 

[Norval]

The doctrine of Purgatory is a different topic but it 's basis is in the Jewish belief as in 2Maccabees 12:38-46. Much of the Church’s tradition comes from the Jewish Faith.
I can assure it really is not a laughing matter, it is a dead serious situation. I also believe our Lord has a sense of humor as St Theresa of Avila used to attest to at times and in St Faustina’s diary it comes up a few times. I understand in St. Faustina’s case it was more a teaching thing on Jesus’s part but it could be considered humorous.
It is good to have an open positive attitude when facing the world. We humans have this deadly self destructing malady, just being human
God Bless!!!
Norval

 

[mardukm]

Our Orthodox brethren do not hold to the Catholic teachings that a soul is judged immediately at death. Apparently they believe that it is held in a state waiting for the end of time before it is judged.

To be more specific, it is the Oriental Orthodox who “do not believe” in a particular Judgment. The Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church share in the doctrine of particular Judgment.

Now, I put “do not believe” in quotes because though OO do not designate their belief of the immediate experience in the afterlife as “particular judgment,” there is nevertheless a differentiation between the fates of the perfectly righteous (who immediately go to heaven after death), the righteous still in need of purification, and the unrighteous,

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Mickey]

But in fact I know what you say is patently false

You are very good at making false accusations.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey why be so “short” with him? It was you that opined about purgatory and opened it up for discussion.

It was Norval who first introduced the subject.

 

[Mickey]

The doctrine of Purgatory is a different topic but it 's basis is in the Jewish belief as in 2Maccabees 12:38-46.

Those passages refer to prayers for the dead.

Much of the Church’s tradition comes from the Jewish Faith.

You are not of the Jewish faith.

 

[crazzeto]

You are very good at making false accusations.

Accusation? Where was the accusation in what I posted? It was merely a statement of fact, what you post is patently false. I would ask you to re-read my post.

You say there was no such thing as purgatory east or west before 1,000 A.D.

This is patently false, in the earliest days both eastern and western fathers had begun the practice of indulgences, offering up their suffering to pay for other Christian’s temporal punishment for their sins.

Already you’ve seen other posters mention the scriptual evidence for purgatory, you say its just prayers for the dead. But I ask, why do the dead need prayers if they are in heaven or hell? I’ll retouch on this in a second when I discuss how your views on E. Orthodox’s current beleif structure isn’t so “anti-purgatory” as you characterize it.

As far as the ECF’s, you have Tertellian talking about prayers for the dead as an Apostolic Ordenance in De corona militis, and in De Monogmia he advises widows to pray for the dead. St. Cyprian would forbid customary prayers for one who had violated the eccesiastical law:

“Our predecessors prudently advised that no brother, departing this life, should nominate any churchman as his executor; and should he do it, that no oblation should be made for him, nor sacrifice offered for his repose.”

Before this, Clemet of Alexandria would puzzle over what happend to a man who repented on his death bed, and had no time to make any sort of meaningful penetential act. His conclusion?

“the believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one”

All before 1,000 A.D.

Now regarding E. Orthodox beliefs. You say they reject purgatory, but they dont’ really… Not even in the most recently developed (as of the 18th century) beliefs on the after life is purgatory truely “eliminated”. Rather, now E. Orthodox are under the impression that the victory of the Lamb is some how incomplete. That we don’t go to heaven or hell, and theory now is that people who need “refinement” spend time in hell, before the final judgment. If at that time God judges them worthy of heaven, he promotes them so to speak. I won’t go into my specific views of how this theory is problematic, I will leave it at the Orthodox haven’t really abandoned purgatory. You just “moved it”.

 

[Mickey]

It was merely a statement of fact, what you post is patently false.

False accusation.

You say there was no such thing as purgatory east or west before 1,000 A.D.

Start a thread on purgatory.

This is patently false, in the earliest days both eastern and western fathers had begun the practice of indulgences,

Huh? Sources?

Already you’ve seen other posters mention the scriptual evidence for purgatory, you say its just prayers for the dead. But I ask, why do the dead need prayers if they are in heaven or hell?

That is the reason for the post–they do not go to heaven or hell at the particular judgment.

As far as the ECF’s, you have Tertellian talking about prayers for the dead

Prayers for the dead do not prove purgatory. Start a thread.

“the believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one”

That is not purgatory. Start a thread.

" I will leave it at the Orthodox haven’t really abandoned purgatory. You just “moved it”.

Sources? Start a thread.

 

[crazzeto]

Mickey, no need to start another thread… The OP gave implied concent to answering your challenges. And I’m not the one here making false accusations.

 

[crazzeto]

BTW, here’s a good start Mickey

religioustolerance.org/purgatory6.htm

I find it interesting that as of the Coucil of Florance the Eastern church was on board with purgatory, other than denial that fire was the cause of torment.

Here’s another good discussion on the matter
davidmacd.com/catholic/orthodox/pugatory_orthodox_church_catholic_church.htm

Here’s an orthodox website which deny’s purgatory, explaining at least one common position held in your church (again, a problem with the EO churchs is the lack of ability to make doctrinal statements, ever)
orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx

This website is eccumenical
encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com/pages/18019/purgatory.html

 

[Mickey]

BTW, here’s a good start Mickey

A good start for what?

I find it interesting that as of the Coucil of Florance the Eastern church was on board with purgatory, other than denial that fire was the cause of torment.

And I thank God every day that they came to their senses. St Mark of Ephesus pray for us!

Here’s another good discussion on the matter

Yes. I am aware that there are many Roman Catholic sites that share your view.

Here’s an orthodox website which deny’s purgatory

Yippee! And where are the Orthodox sites which claim that “purgatory” is a doctrine of the Church?

This website is eccumenical

Good ol’ wikipedia.

 

[Mickey]

And I’m not the one here making false accusations.

Yes you are. If you would like an understanding regarding how the Orthodox understand the RC doctrine of purgatory. You can start the umpteenth thread about it.