1 or 2 judgements?

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OK, I’m not going to play this game where you offer nothing factual, just insults and denials. I’ve proven my point, your posts up to this point have been patentantly false. Not an accusation mind you, just a fact. You’ve posted incorrect i.e. false information.
 
OK, I’m not going to play this game where you offer nothing factual, just insults and denials.
I have not insulted you. And I am through with your little games also.
I’ve proven my point
No, you have not.
You’ve posted incorrect i.e. false information.
Continued false accusations. 😦 You have just been elevated to my very short ignore list. In fact you are the only one on it at this time. :yup:
 
I have not insulted you. And I am through with your little games also.

No, you have not.

Continued false accusations. 😦 You have just been elevated to my very short ignore list. In fact you are the only one on it at this time. :yup:
I’m saddened that rather than choosing to meet the facts head on, you’ve decided to publicly take offence when there is no reason to. So I’m sorry you won’t read this, but regardless… I’ll certainly hope that one day you’ll decide to fairly read this conversation.
 
I’m saddened that rather than choosing to meet the facts head on, you’ve decided to publicly take offence when there is no reason to. So I’m sorry you won’t read this, but regardless… I’ll certainly hope that one day you’ll decide to fairly read this conversation.
I don’t understand why this is such an emotional issue with some of the Orthodox. I have heard many different opinions about what Orthodox believe and there seems to be no “Orthodox” consensus except that some laity reject all Catholic teachings.

I have always felt we were not so very far away from Orthodox in our beliefs here.

BF
 
I don’t understand why this is such an emotional issue with some of the Orthodox. I have heard many different opinions about what Orthodox believe and there seems to be no “Orthodox” consensus except that some laity reject all Catholic teachings.

I have always felt we were not so very far away from Orthodox in our beliefs here.

BF
We’re really not, spend some quality time on google try searching subjects like “Eastern Orthodox views on afterlife” or some such. In perhaps less than an hour you’ll peice together a puzzel that looks not so different than the catholic view other than some very recent innovations (gates of heaven not yet open). It feels like some layity are quite simply, determained to reject anything they view as “romanism”…
 
I don’t understand why this is such an emotional issue with some of the Orthodox.
It’s not emotional at all. The early Church had no such doctrine–and Holy Orthodoxy does not either. We do not see Scriptural or patristic evidence to declare such a doctrine. We are satisfied to know that some things in the afterlife are not knowable in this life.
I have always felt we were not so very far away from Orthodox in our beliefs here.
In many things we are similar—and in many things we are far away.
 
It’s not emotional at all. The early Church had no such doctrine–and Holy Orthodoxy does not either. We do not see Scriptural or patristic evidence to declare such a doctrine. We are satisfied to know that some things in the afterlife are not knowable in this life.

In many things we are similar—and in many things we are far away.
But the early Church did not all fully understand basic theological concepts that we now know a lot better and have formalized. There are such things as The Trinity, Communion of the Saints, vicarious atonement, the difference between eternal and temporal debts, formalized Christology, Marian dogmas etc. etc.

I sometimes get the impression that some Orthodox are really making a religion out of ultra-conservatism. I myself am very conservative and feel I can relate to this. But we see in the early church that there is an immediate “elitism” that tried to segregate the church. We had the Donatists who did not want to do the most fundamental Christian thing of “forgiving one another” when Christians became apostate under torture and threat of violence. They did not want to let these to ever come back to the church even if they repented. We had those who said that penances should be very severe. We had those who said that anyone who commits post-baptismal sins is unfit to be a Christian. We had those who insisted that anyone who was not fasting and praying daily were not true Christians etc. These were all examples of elitism and very contrary to the human side of what Christ taught. Likewise Christ told us explicitly that the Holy Spirit would reveal new insights too wonderful for any to bear until the Church was ready to receive these deeper revelations of the same one faith. Will there be some mysteries too sublime for us to every fully fathom and beyond anything we should try to understand? Yes of course! But there are also partial insights into some of the mysteries that we can expect revelation by the Holy Spirit to give us. Indulgences and purgatory are one such area that derive completly from scripture and from intellect illuminated by faith and by revelation. There are just too many consistent saintly accounts about purgatory to ignore. It is not essential to any one’s salvation to know every esoteric aspect of purgatory but it is certainly beneficial for us in that this knowledge aids us in being charitable to our deceased brethren and in repenting and doing penance in our own personal salvation. Conservatism should not be afraid to accept valid theology just because it was not originally taught in the first few centuries when it does not contradict anything in scripture and is backed by so many intellectual giants and private revelation.

If we never had a need to evolve the faith and unify and clearfy there would never have been a need to hold a single council meeting. Yet we have the first one in apostolic times from men who all personally knew Christ and knew all of His teachings personally. Clearly, this is all part of the great commission to baptize and teach all nations.

BF
 
But the early Church did not all fully understand basic theological concepts that we now know a lot better and have formalized.
Says who?
I sometimes get the impression that some Orthodox are really making a religion out of ultra-conservatism.
Then your impression is sadly mistaken.
Indulgences and purgatory are one such area that derive completly from scripture and from intellect illuminated by faith and by revelation.
We do not agree. We understand that it is the fallen intellect of the Scholastic mindset that attempted to define the undefinable.
There are just too many consistent saintly accounts about purgatory to ignore.
Perhaps amongst your relatively recent Western saints. But the early undivided Church does not attest to such a thing.
It is not essential to any one’s salvation to know every esoteric aspect of purgatory but it is certainly beneficial for us in that this knowledge aids us in being charitable to our deceased brethren and in repenting and doing penance in our own personal salvation.
In the East we know that the best course of action is repentance and contrition in this life. We also prayer for the reposed that God be merciful.
Conservatism should not be afraid to accept valid theology just because it was not originally taught in the first few centuries when it does not contradict anything in scripture and is backed by so many intellectual giants and private revelation.
That is a strawman. The only true theologian is he/she who has experienced God. Reason is not a prerequisite for being a theologian or teaching theology.
If we never had a need to evolve the faith and unify and clearfy there would never have been a need to hold a single council meeting. Yet we have the first one in apostolic times from men who all personally knew Christ and knew all of His teachings personally. Clearly, this is all part of the great commission to baptize and teach all nations.
The seven great councils were indeed God inspired and delivered clarifications of the faith based on Sacred Scripture and patristic consensus. The West continued to claim “development of doctrine” and this led to a continuous and seemingly infinite process of clarification which sometimes contradicted itself (ie: see the evolution of purgatory). Ultimately, this style of “theologizing” led to the tragic events of the protestant reformation.
 
My fellow Catholics, please give brother Mickey a break.

There is something about this issue that you seem to fail to perceive from an Orthodox perspective.

The Latin Church is a genius at the art of dogmatization. In her teachings, she easily distinguishes between the dogma of Purgatory (i.e.: 1) that there is a state that is not heaven or hell in the afterlife; 2) that souls can undergo purification in this state; 3) that the sacrifices and suffrages of the Church, especially the Holy Sacrifice, is of benefit to these souls) from the dogma of Indulgences (i.e.: 1) that the Church has been given the Keys to bind and loose; 2) that there exists a treasury of merit that can be applied to aid souls in the remission of temporal punishment; 3) that the Church has the power to grant access to this treasury for the benefit of souls living and dead).

However, Orthodox do not make that distinction. Orthodox reject indulgences, and as far as they are concerned, Purgatory and Indulgences are the same can of worms.

So regardless of any of our claims - true though they may be - that it is within the Eastern Tradition to accept the specific dogma of Purgatory, since Orthodox do not separate the Catholic understanding of Purgatory from Indulgences, they must necessarily assert that they reject Purgatory.

So it is useless to keep claiming that the Eastern Orthodox historically accepted Purgatory.

As brother Mickey suggested, it might be more fruitful to start a new thread on the topic of Indulgences in the ancient Church, for that is where the real issue lies.

Hope that helps.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
However, Orthodox do not make that distinction. Orthodox reject indulgences, and as far as they are concerned, Purgatory and Indulgences are the same can of worms.

So regardless of any of our claims - true though they may be - that it is within the Eastern Tradition to accept the specific dogma of Purgatory, since Orthodox do not separate the Catholic understanding of Purgatory from Indulgences, they must necessarily assert that they reject Purgatory.
Quick question for you Mark. When I was in the Byzantine Catholic Church, many monastics and clergy would tell me that they either rejected the doctrine of purgatory and the idea of indulgences completely (holding to the Orthodox view)—or they claimed a very different understanding of these issues (not much in line with a Latin understanding).

As a member of the Coptic Catholic Church—do you hold a Latin understanding of these things—or something else?

You can put this in a new thread if you wish.
 
It’s not emotional at all. The early Church had no such doctrine–and Holy Orthodoxy does not either. We do not see Scriptural or patristic evidence to declare such a doctrine. We are satisfied to know that some things in the afterlife are not knowable in this life.

In many things we are similar—and in many things we are far away.
I am going to borrow heavily from a good site that I have found: A discussion of Purgatory with an Orthodox Christian?

With regards to purgatory the key verse is: “The gates of hades (i.e., death) would not prevail” against His Church (Matt 16:18). This means that true Christians cannot be subject to death. The ideal is that we are all saints while here on earth and go straight to heaven at death.

The real issue here is one of “full communion” or perfection… How many of us can say we are “saints” or are perfect? When we become attached to sin, we are not, strictly speaking, in communion with the Church, but we are somewhat separated from it based on degree.

Observe from early church history how the church dealt with Christians who were not rigorously conforming to Christian mores and sinning gravely. In early times one was excommunicated for grave sin – period. Then around A.D. 217. Pope St. Callistus (invoking his Petrine authority to “bind and loosen”) relaxed the original Apostolic discipline for the Sacrament of Confession. Before this time, an occasion of “mortal sin” (1 John 5:16-17) committed after Baptism, resulted in formal excommunication until one was on their deathbeds (why some deferred baptism till old age). This is how seriously sin was taken in the very early Church. Those who were in communion in the early Church were literally “saints”.

After Baptism, early Christians surrendered all worldly attachments and fully embraced Christ since being a Christian was usually a death sentence (once the word got out to the Jews or the Romans). However, by the 3rd Century, the Church had grown to such a point that not everyone in the Church was so heroic or holy. It’s ironic that suffering and persecution fosters such purity and virtue but as soon as the Church overcomes it’s enemies and is accepted it members immediately start becoming lax and sinning again. We can all relate to this. But in the early Church the original Apostolic discipline for Confession was so severe that at any one time, a good 90% of all Christians (those who had fallen into grave sin) found themselves formally excommunicated from the Church!

The bishops realized that the standards Christ gave us were so difficult to maintain that they would have to relax the apostolic criteria for loosing and binding; or else the church would lose too many active members to excommunication (but gain a lot of penitential labor ;-)). But this relaxation was certainly within their apostolic authority since Christ gave them that authority to judge and decide for themselves. Between 217-220 AD Pope Callistus I (in accord with the bishops of Alexandria and Antioch) issued a formal decree stating that Confession for serious sins could be received REPEATEDLY (not only on one’s death bed), and that such sinners were not to be formally excommunicated. This is why we today (BOTH Eastern Orthodox AND Catholics) can receive the Sacrament of Confession an unlimited number of times in our lives , and why we are not formally excommunicated every time we sin seriously.

If the original disciplines of the early church were held today – almost NONE of us would be in communion with the Church until we arrived in our death beds for last rites! There would be no church militant to spread the good news and labor for the Lord! So we must not be careless when we say “that was not believed in the early Church” on every matter we discuss here because Jesus gave considerable leeway for his appointed disciples and their successors to judge how best to teach and conduct church affairs and establish sacramental criteria and disciplines.

But, when Pope Callistus issued this decree, he was bitterly opposed, both on “the left” by Tertullian (a Montantist heretic at the time, who denied all episcopal authority) and on the “extreme right” by St. Hippolytus of Rome, who broke off from the Church for a time because of this ruling by Pope Callistus. For example, Tertullian writes against Pope Callistus, mocking him and calling him “Pontifex Maximus” (a pagan title at the time). Read his scathing critique “On Modesty” 1.1, ANF IV:74 and 21:9-10.

Despite the criticism its clear that Tertullian acknowledged by his letter to Pope Callistus his Petrine authority over the others since the other churches “akin to that of Peter” (e.g the patriarchates of Alexandria and Antioch) had accepted his decree.

No one can deny that the Orthodox to this day permit unrestrained access to the sacrament of confession - yet it did NOT exist unrestricted in apostolic times. So this is proof that at one time the Orthodox patriarchs DID yield to the authority of Rome and DID deviate from original practices.

[a bit more to come]

BF
 
[completing the prior post]

What this means to our discussion of Purgatory is that, from about 217 AD onward most Christians are in the Church, not because they deserve to be --that is, not because they are zealously committed to their Baptismal Covenant to be a saint of Jesus Christ, but rather we are in the Church BY INDULGENCE --that is, we are sinners who are TOLERATED by the Church (by the communion of saints). But we are with only a scarce few few exceptions NOT saints ourselves. For any, and I mean esp. the Orthodox, to deny the doctrines of indulgences while personally benefiting from them as a sinful member of the church is most peculiar and inconsistent. Once we all realize this, we see why prayer for those who have departed is so necessary - most do not do anywhere near proper penance compared to the early church! So, we are praying that these modern day less than saints are granted FULL communion with the Church --that is, with the saints who are in Heaven. For, if and when they become saints, then death has no power over them.

We should ask what Jesus meant my ‘storing up for ourselves treasure in heaven’. This is precisely what indulgences and prayer is all about. In the Byzantine tradition you all pray for the perfection (ever continuing deification) of saints as well as we do. Even the saints in Heaven are not fully deified …nor will they ever be, since God is infinite, and they will always grow closer and closer to Him for all eternity (why there is no boredom in heaven). This is even true of the Blessed Theotokos. However, when we pray for our departed brothers and sisters, it is not only for their continued deification in Heaven, but for their full communion with the saints, so that they will be IN Heaven itself --that death (hades / “Purgatory”) will have no claim on them whatsoever, and they will be free from all sin and sinful attachments, and be with the Lord. Outside the gates of hell a soul is in a position to be constantly buoyed up ever higher toward perfection. Clearly the lowest purgatory is right outside the gates of hell and ascends right to the portico of heaven; and within heaven their is a hiearchy as well. Pray, Pray, Pray and suffer for each other!

BF
 
We should ask what Jesus meant my ‘storing up for ourselves treasure in heaven’. This is precisely what indulgences and prayer is all about.
That has nothing to do with the odd concept of indulgences. This article shows the classic RC bias. I have seen it before.
However, when we pray for our departed brothers and sisters, it is not only for their continued deification in Heaven, but for their full communion with the saints, so that they will be IN Heaven itself --that death (hades / “Purgatory”) will have no claim on them whatsoever, and they will be free from all sin and sinful attachments, and be with the Lord.
But there is no such place as purgatory.

For the ancient pagan Greeks, Hades was a place, but was sometimes also personified in folk mythology. The physical place was where all humans go when they die, a site located at the center of the earth. Like Sheol, it was the final abode of all humans, but unlike Sheol, it was taken to be a geographic site, the literal “underworld” in folk mythology. It was also taken as a metaphor for the place of final rest. Hades was also sometimes taken as the name of the ruler of this place, the pagan god Hades, also known as Pluton by the Romans.
aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html
 
The Early Church Fathers believed in prayers for the dead. The Latin theological perspective on Purgatory is ancient and has Apostolic origins.

Early Church Fathers - Origins of Purgatory
Clement of Alexandria (Patres Groeci. IX:
The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, “yet” etc.
Origen (Commentary on Luke:
“As John stood near the Jordan among those who came to be baptized, accepting those who confessed their vices and their sins and rejecting the rest … so will the Lord Jesus Christ stand in a river of fire next to a flaming sword and Baptize all those who should go to Paradise after they die, but who lack purgation… But those who do not bear the mark of the first Baptism will not be baptized in the bath of fire. One must first be Baptized in water and Spirit so that, when the river of fire is reached, the marks of the baths of water and Spirit will remain as signs that one is worthy of receiving the Baptism of fire in Jesus Christ.”
Tertullian (On Monagomy:
That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).

“This place, the Bosom of Abraham, though not in Heaven, and yet above hell, offers the souls of the righteous an interim refreshment until the end of all things brings about the general resurrection and the final reward.” (Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:34, before 220 A.D.)

“Indeed she [a widow] prays for his [her husband’s] soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection [Heaven]. And each year, on the anniversity of his death, she offers the Sacrifice *.”
*
Cyprian (Letters 51{55}:20 A.D. 253):
It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.
Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 A.D. 350):
Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out
John Chrysostom

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 (A.D. 392)).
BF
[/quote]
 
Funny then, how Oregen and Clemet of Alexandria describe the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, and explain this is the reason why you pray for the dead 😉
 
That has nothing to do with the odd concept of indulgences. This article shows the classic RC bias. I have seen it before.

But there is no such place as purgatory.
But the early church fathers all believed in a place between heaven and hell and invited prayers for the dead. Reference my prior post. If none in hell or heaven can benefit from out prayers why pray for he dead???

Just because our verbal lexicon borrows heavily from our primitive human beliefs (e.g. influence of Greek literature and belied in hades etc.) and because our language itself is pagan originally does not mean that the concept of purgatory is invalid. It is a name the Latin Church came up with to describe its purpose and condition to each soul. There are many concepts in pagan literature that have some parallels in Jewish and Christian reading. The very idea of grace and virtue are methodological concepts originally - yet they are valid concepts to help us understand the divine workings.

BF
 
The Early Church Fathers believed in prayers for the dead. The Latin theological perspective on Purgatory is ancient and has Apostolic origins.
I used to play “Church Father Wars” all the time. But not so much anymore because things can be taken out of context to easily. But I was pretty good at it–I have hundreds of quotes in my files. 🙂

To be short and to the point, I believe (for the most part) that these Fathers are certainly not referring to the innovative RC doctrine of purgatory–but instead are making reference to the last judgment. This puts us somewhat back on track to the OP!!! 😃

But I did find one excerpt rather interesting from Tertullian:
This place, the Bosom of Abraham, though not in Heaven, and yet above hell, offers the souls of the righteous an interim refreshment until the end of all things brings about the general resurrection and the final reward." (Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:34, before 220 A.D.)

Pope John Paul II seems to contradict this:
Today’s Gospel offers the parable of the “rich man” and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk
16: 19**-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed, **Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II

I’m gonna go with Pope John Paul II on this one.** :D**
 
Poppycock!
I believe it is an innovation that the Western Church developed over time that does not have Scriptural or patristic support. 🤷
Poppycock? It’s all scriptural.

You seem to have made a religion out of opposing Catholic belief and in believing whatever you want to irrespective of the evidence…
The Bosom of Abraham:
newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm
In the Holy Bible, the expression “the Bosom of Abraham” is found only in two verses of St. Luke’s Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord’s time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23). And it is in harmony with these Jewish conceptions that Our Lord pictured the terrible fate of the selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the patient Lazarus. In the next life Dives found himself in Gehenna, condemned to the most excruciating torments, whereas Lazarus was carried by the angels into “the Bosom of Abraham”, where the righteous dead shared in the repose and felicity of Abraham “the father of the faithful”.
BF
 
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