1 Tim 3:15 question

[Serafina17]

I’ve googled this and everything, but I can’t find a solid answer.

“if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth”

I am in an awesome online discussion on the Church/infallibility, and posted this verse. As I was writing it out though, I realized that someone could pose the question "is the pillar and foundation of truth referring to ‘God’s household’, or ‘the living God’ "

And in fact, the other person did pose that question. I did answer her on it, but I’d like to see what more a seasoned apologist would say.

 

[tester]

from biblecommenter.com/1_timothy/3-15.htm

two points:

point 1:The pillar and ground of the truth - There has been no little diversity of opinion among critics whether this phrase is to be taken in connection with the preceding, meaning that “the church” is the pillar and ground of the truth; or whether it is to be taken in connection with what follows, meaning that the principal support of the truth was the doctrine there referred to - that God was manifest in the flesh.

Bloomfield remarks on this: “It is surprising that any who have any knowledge or experience in Greek literature could tolerate so harsh a construction as that which arises from the latter method.”
The more natural interpretation certainly is, to refer it to the former; and this is supported by the consideration that it would then fall in with the object of the apostle. His design here seems to be, to impress Timothy with a deep sense of the importance of correct conduct in relation to the church; of the responsibility of those who presided over it; and of the necessity of care and caution in the selection of proper officers.

so it seems that church is the pillar of truth

but what was meant by “the church”

point 2
In the house of God - This does not mean in a place of public worship, nor does it refer to propriety of deportment there. It refers rather to the church as a body of believers, and to converse with them. The church is called the “house of God,” because it is that in which he dwells. Formerly, his unique residence was in the temple at Jerusalem; now that the temple is destroyed, it is the church of Christ, among his people.

the greek is here at biblos.com/1_timothy/3-15.htm

the word is ekklēsia

defined here at strongsnumbers.com/greek/1577.htm

hope that helps
btw biblelexicon.org/genesis/1-1.htm is a great site for these types of questions

 

[po18guy]

I’ve googled this and everything, but I can’t find a solid answer.

“if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth”

I am in an awesome online discussion on the Church/infallibility, and posted this verse. As I was writing it out though, I realized that someone could pose the question "is the pillar and foundation of truth referring to ‘God’s household’, or ‘the living God’ "

And in fact, the other person did pose that question. I did answer her on it, but I’d like to see what more a seasoned apologist would say.

Both the pillar and the foundation support something greater. God is Truth, and is supported by both the pillar and the foundation - His Church.

When considering 1 Timothy 3:15, we must read it in the context of Jesus’ teaching as to the ultimate authority on earth: Matthew 18:15-18 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Notice what Jesus gives to the Apostles at the end of this teaching: the power to bind and loose - ultimate authority on earth.

 

[steve_b]

Both the pillar and the foundation support something greater. God is Truth, and is supported by both the pillar and the foundation - His Church.

When considering 1 Timothy 3:15, we must read it in the context of Jesus’ teaching as to the ultimate authority on earth:

Matthew 18:15-18 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Notice what Jesus gives to the Apostles at the end of this teaching: the power to bind and loose - ultimate authority on earth.

some observations,

Mt 18:

19* Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

• bind and loose for THEM requires 2 of them to agree.

Mt 16: 17-19

• Jesus singles Peter out from all the apostles
• Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven & power to bind and loose by himself. No limitations
• Jesus puts Peter in charge of His Church.
• ergo, taking a matter to the Church is also taking it to Peter or having Peter involved, as head of the Church.

 

[James224]

I’ve googled this and everything, but I can’t find a solid answer.

“if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth”

I am in an awesome online discussion on the Church/infallibility, and posted this verse. As I was writing it out though, I realized that someone could pose the question "is the pillar and foundation of truth referring to ‘God’s household’, or ‘the living God’ "

And in fact, the other person did pose that question. I did answer her on it, but I’d like to see what more a seasoned apologist would say.

According to good English, it is referring to the “Household of God” and/or the “Church”. I think in the phrase “the living God”, “God” is the direct object. It says the “Household of God” (which) = “Church”. So these 2 are equal or the same.

 

[Philthy]

so it seems that church is the pillar of truth

but what was meant by “the church”

**It refers rather to the church as a body of believers, and to converse with them. **

hope that helps

Which body of believers are we supposed to seek out exactly? And what if there is a disagreement with them, can we search out another “body of believers” until we find the “body” that agrees with our own opinion? Im sorry but this fails the test of practicality and it seems IMHO to be avoiding the obvious: there is meant to be one, recognizable authority within a formal body known as the church.

Blessings!

 

[po18guy]

Which body of believers are we supposed to seek out exactly? And what if there is a disagreement with them, can we search out another “body of believers” until we find the “body” that agrees with our own opinion? Im sorry but this fails the test of practicality and it seems IMHO to be avoiding the obvious: there is meant to be one, recognizable authority within a formal body known as the church.

Blessings!

And, to that end, look how Jesus answers Peter in Luke 12:39-44 “But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would have been awake and * would not have left his house to be broken into. You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour.” Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?” And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise steward (singular), whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions”.

So, it was the “faithful steward” that was to be placed in charge of all Jesus’ possessions. But, I digress…

 

[tester]

Which body of believers are we supposed to seek out exactly? And what if there is a disagreement with them, can we search out another “body of believers” until we find the “body” that agrees with our own opinion? Im sorry but this fails the test of practicality and it seems IMHO to be avoiding the obvious: there is meant to be one, recognizable authority within a formal body known as the church.

Blessings!

I provided a link to what the the word ekklésia meant in the Greek :

instead of accepting the meaning, you want to overlay a doctrine or opinion on the definition until it agrees with your own opinion.

I would suggest that the speaker and the audience knew who were the “body of believers” (aka the meaning of the word ekklésia)

strongsnumbers.com/greek/1577.htm

Original Word: ἐκκλησία
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see’-ah)
Short Definition: assembly

Word Origin
from ek and kaleó
Definition
an assembly, a (religious) congregation
NASB Word Usage
assembly (3), church (74), churches (35), congregation (2).

From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) – assembly, church.

here are 33 other uses of the word in the NT:
concordance.biblos.com/ekkle_sia.htm

 

[po18guy]

I provided a link to what the the word ekklésia meant in the Greek : instead of accepting the meaning, you want to overlay a doctrine or opinion on the definition until it agrees with your own opinion. I would suggest that the speaker and the audience knew who were the “body of believers” (aka the meaning of the word ekklésia)
strongsnumbers.com/greek/1577.htm
Original Word: ἐκκλησία
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see’-ah)
Short Definition: assembly
Word Origin
from ek and kaleó
Definition
an assembly, a (religious) congregation
NASB Word Usage
assembly (3), church (74), churches (35), congregation (2).
From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleo; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) – assembly, church.
here are 33 other uses of the word in the NT:
concordance.biblos.com/ekkle_sia.htm

Two things: Do you believe that Christ left someone in charge when He ascended? Should there be someone in Charge until He returns?

 

[Philthy]

I provided a link to what the the word ekklésia meant in the Greek :
Definition
an assembly, a (religious) congregation
here are 33 other uses of the word in the NT:

I know you did and I don’t need to read it. Word meanings change with time, culture, context, etc. Strongs is not Scripture.

instead of accepting the meaning, you want to overlay a doctrine or opinion on the definition until it agrees with your own opinion.

Wow - let it be known that the pot has accused the kettle of being black. Which meaning, exactly, am I to accept? How does choosing your definition answer the simple questions that I asked??

I would suggest that the speaker and the audience knew who were the “body of believers” (aka the meaning of the word ekklésia)

Well, if tester “suggests” it then I guess that ends all debate.
You have no idea what the speaker and audience knew - thats just another one of your weak arguments more than likely motivated by you need to believe that an organizational hieriarchy didnt exist in the early church.
In addition, it hasnt escaped anyone’s attention that you avoided actually answering any of the SIMPLE questions I asked. Until proven otherwise, I will assume that the reason you didnt answer them is because you have no answer - despite having 35 definitions for ecclesia from Strongs…

Blessings!

 

[tester]

typically theses posting run 5 or more Catholics to 1 protestant:

not all questions can be replied to :

• No. I don’t think Jesus left anyone in charge.
• Romans 14 shows we have some freedoms in belief ( yes that means personal opinions) yes there are essentials

whats the next reply; the horrors of sola scriptura and the bajillion protestant denominations?
I’ve also read your playbook

 

[po18guy]

No. I don’t think Jesus left anyone in charge.

I believe that you have ignored pages and pages of scripture then. So, even the twelve were not in charge? Huh?

*]Romans 14 shows we have some freedoms in belief ( yes that means personal opinions) yes there are essentials

I absolutely believe that you are exercising freedom of belief.

whats the next reply; the horrors of sola scriptura and the bajillion protestant denominations? I’ve also read your playbook

Nope. I challenge you to actually learn, from practicing Catholics, what our faith is.

 

[NHInsider]

I provided a link to what the the word ekklésia meant in the Greek :

instead of accepting the meaning, you want to overlay a doctrine or opinion on the definition until it agrees with your own opinion.

I would suggest that the speaker and the audience knew who were the “body of believers” (aka the meaning of the word ekklésia)

Both writer and recipient, as well as further audiences, did know - they knew that the Church was the Body and that the Head had given authority to the Apostles - authority which Paul was exercising in his letter to Timothy, and exhorting Timothy to use in his role as bishop.

History is pretty clear on this, despite the desires of countless of our separated brethren who would dearly love to prove the Lord actually intended to leave an “invisible Body” to carry out His ministry.

 

[thistle]

I’ve googled this and everything, but I can’t find a solid answer.

“if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth”

I am in an awesome online discussion on the Church/infallibility, and posted this verse. As I was writing it out though, I realized that someone could pose the question "is the pillar and foundation of truth referring to ‘God’s household’, or ‘the living God’ "

And in fact, the other person did pose that question. I did answer her on it, but I’d like to see what more a seasoned apologist would say.

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 15. The pillar and ground of the truth. By the promises of Christ to direct his Church by the infallible spirit of truth; (see John xvi. 7; Matthew xxviii. 20; &c. (Witham)) and therefore, the Church of the living God can never uphold error, nor bring in corruptions, superstition, or idolatry. (Challoner) — That the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, is to be conducted by the constant superintendence and guidance of the Holy Spirit into all truth to the consummation of days, every one whose mind is not strangely prejudiced may easily discover in various places of the inspired writings.

 

[guanophore]

I provided a link to what the the word ekklésia meant in the Greek :

instead of accepting the meaning, you want to overlay a doctrine or opinion on the definition until it agrees with your own opinion.

I would suggest that the speaker and the audience knew who were the “body of believers” (aka the meaning of the word ekklésia)

No, but there is more to ekklesia than just the body of belivers. That Body also has leaders appointed who are in unity with the Apostles. That Body has Jesus as her Head, and the HS as her soul.

When I said you were suffering from a truncated gospel, this is one of the elements to which I was referring. Many of our separated brethren have a deficient notion of the Church, so when they read the word “church” in the NT, they arrive at a an incorrect understanding.

You see, the NT cannot be properly understood apart from the faith which produced it, which is Catholic.

typically  theses posting run 5 or more Catholics to 1 protestant:

Shoot! Did he see us behind the Water cooler plotting?

not all questions can be replied to :
No. I don’t think Jesus left anyone in charge.

Then, by what authority did they make decisions, such as the council of Jerusalem?

Romans 14 shows we have some freedoms in belief ( yes that  means personal opinions)

Do you think that you have the freedom in belief to depart from what Jesus has already revealed to the Church?

yes there are essentials

Can you show me where these are identified in Scripture?

whats the next reply; the horrors of sola scriptura and the bajillion protestant denominations?
I’ve also read your playbook

do you think there is another major reason for the bajillion denominations, other than SS?

I notice they did not exist until after this doctrine was invented.

 

[Pax]

typically theses posting run 5 or more Catholics to 1 protestant:

…

tester in Christ,

That’s natural and to be expected on a Catholic forum. I see just the opposite ratio when I participate over on CARM. Let’s simply enjoy the fact that we can exchange our respective views in a charitable and Christ like manner.

God bless.

 

[tester]

tester in Christ,

That’s natural and to be expected on a Catholic forum. I see just the opposite ratio when I participate over on CARM. Let’s simply enjoy the fact that we can exchange our respective views in a charitable and Christ like manner.

God bless.

agreed : i just don’t like being accused of avoiding answering a single poster’s questions

for ex:

it hasnt escaped anyone’s attention that you avoided actually answering any of the SIMPLE questions I asked. Until proven otherwise, I will assume that the reason you didnt answer them is because you have no answer

 

[Pax]

tester in Christ,

I know how hard it is to carry a thread when you’re outnumbered. The only thing you can do is attempt to answer someone later on if they somehow feel neglected. It is unfortunate when things do not go as smoothly as hoped, but it is the nature of online communication.

God bless.