1 Tim 5:20 & Eph. 4:26

[Roman_Catholic_1]

As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 1 Tim 5:20

Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger… Eph 4:26

Are these verses teaching that Christians will cease sinning? I have come across a protestant that believes that we actually become perfect here on earth. That “true Christians” actually cease sinning and that those who do fall back into sin are false converts. 1 Tim 5:20 and Eph. 4:26 are the verses that has been used to support this belief.

Anyone ever heard of this?

God bless

 

[LegoGE1947]

Are these verses teaching that Christians will cease sinning? I have come across a protestant that believes that we actually become perfect here on earth. That “true Christians” actually cease sinning and that those who do fall back into sin are false converts. 1 Tim 5:20 and Eph. 4:26 are the verses that has been used to support this belief.

Anyone ever heard of this?

God bless

Yes I have heard of it but I’ve also heard of 1 John 1:8 “If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” or Proverbs 20:9 “Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?” and the classic Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God:” That idea of sinless perfection is a crock! as evidenced by protestants that won’t even speak to brothers and sisters in Christ who don’t believe exactly the same as they do.

 

[Kortyr]

At least some if not most Protestants claim that once you are “born again”, that is, have accepted Jesus as your personal savior and are therefore guaranteed salvation, you cease to sin. They hold this notion only because they cannot except the fact that someone could be guaranteed a spot in heaven and yet still go one to lead a life of sin. It defies logic, so they simply hold that once you are “born again”, you cease to sin.

As the Bible is clear on, we cannot be “perfect” (except for Mary). And at a closer look, it is also clear that the Bible teaches that salvation is a process, and can be lost. We do not simply accept Jesus as our personal savior and get a certain spot in heaven.

Hope this helps.

 

[Church_Militant]

Are these verses teaching that Christians will cease sinning?

Nope…

I have come across a protestant that believes that we actually become perfect here on earth. That “true Christians” actually cease sinning and that those who do fall back into sin are false converts.

Really? I bet I can guess who this guy was.

Anyone ever heard of this?

Sure I’ve heard of it, but it’s still dead wrong and I’ll show you why.

As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.1 Tim 5:20

This verse means precisely what it says and nothing more. The Catholic Church has always rebuked sin when it becomes habitual and scandalous, even as it does today.

Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger… Eph 4:26

Where does this even imply perfection in this life? It doesn’t.

Now lemme share with you a few verses that prove that this premise is indeed an error.

First off, if we become perfect in this life, then why are the following very clear verses in the New Testament?

John 20:21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Wouldn’t be necessary if this premise was true.

1st John 1:8] If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Again, that wouldn’t be needed if this premise were true, would it?

1st Corinthians 9:26] Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
27] but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

There’s St. Paul plainly speaking of his own struggles for sanctity. Now if anyone was a holy guy, he was, but obviously he tells us that he had yet a way to go.

In fact… let’s take a look at that verse in Ephesians 4 in it’s context.
22] Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts,
23] and be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
24] and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
25] Therefore, putting away falsehood, let every one speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.
26] Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
27] and give no opportunity to the devil.
28] Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his hands, so that he may be able to give to those in need.
29] Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
30] And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31] Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice,
32] and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

(Cont’d)

…

 

[Church_Militant]

It looks very much like your guy there yanked that all outta context to assert something that the Word of God does not really say at all.

Finally, let’s look at a couple more passages that further refute this error.
Romans 8: 1] There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
3] For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
4] in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
6] To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7] For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot;
8] and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9] But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10] But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.
11] If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.
12] So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh –
13] for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.
14] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

(See the whole context of both these chapters!)

Colossians 3:5] Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6] On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
7] In these you once walked, when you lived in them.
8] But now put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth.
9] Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices
10] and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Nope…Really? I bet I can guess who this guy was.

Thank you CM

Actually after my wife blocked the emails from the guy who you are thinking of he had someone else in his “church” start emailing her.

The whole problem is that since this guy is such a strict sola scripturist he rejects the idea that people sin after coming to Christ because the Bible does not specifically state, “once you are in Christ you can/will/may sin”. Or so he believes. He believes that the Bible says that we have all sinned, yes but not that we will continue in our sin after coming to Christ. Or so they believe. I guess since the Bible doesn’t specifically state word for word that we will have two feet after we are born again and become a new creation in Christ, we must not have two feet

Biggest Irony Mary never sinning is still looked at as a heresy to them. Seems like they want their cake and to eat it too.

Thanks again CM

God bless you

 

[Church_Militant]

Thank you CM

Actually after my wife blocked the emails from the guy who you are thinking of he had someone else in his “church” start emailing her.

I’d just block them too.

The whole problem is that since this guy is such a strict sola scripturist he rejects the idea that people sin after coming to Christ because the Bible does not specifically state, “once you are in Christ you can/will/may sin”. Or so he believes. He believes that the Bible says that we have all sinned, yes but not that we will continue in our sin after coming to Christ. Or so they believe. I guess since the Bible doesn’t specifically state word for word that we will have two feet after we are born again and become a new creation in Christ, we must not have two feet

Biggest Irony Mary never sinning is still looked at as a heresy to them. Seems like they want their cake and to eat it too.

Thanks again CM

God bless you

Yeah, that would be problematic to try to tell Catholics that he is without sin after having “got saved” whle in the next breath telling us that the Blessed Virgin could not have done precisely what he says he is doing.

I just couldn’t do all those mental and theological gymnastics…

 

[jcrichton]

Thank you CM

Actually after my wife blocked the emails from the guy who you are thinking of he had someone else in his “church” start emailing her.

The whole problem is that since this guy is such a strict sola scripturist he rejects the idea that people sin after coming to Christ because the Bible does not specifically state, “once you are in Christ you can/will/may sin”. Or so he believes. He believes that the Bible says that we have all sinned, yes but not that we will continue in our sin after coming to Christ. Or so they believe. I guess since the Bible doesn’t specifically state word for word that we will have two feet after we are born again and become a new creation in Christ, we must not have two feet

Biggest Irony Mary never sinning is still looked at as a heresy to them. Seems like they want their cake and to eat it too.

Thanks again CM

God bless you

I think that you are beginning to understand his/their mind set: their theology is simply to go against the Catholic Church.

Here’s the other part to the previous quote of St. John’s Epistle:

I ma writing this, my children,
to stop you sinning;
but if anyone should sin,
we have our advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ, who is just;
he is the sacrifice that takes our sins away,
and not only ours,
but the whole world’s. (1 St. John 2:1-2)

…so first in chapter 1 (verses 8-10) we are told that we cannot claim to be free of sin because we make God a liar; rather, we must acknowledge/confess our sins and rely on God’s mercy so that we may be delivered from sin; then, chapter 2 verses 1-2, we are called to stop sinning (become a new creature in Christ) while simultaneously reminded that if we do sin, we can count on Jesus’ mercy because He died for our sin! (compare with St. John 15:1-8)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[thechristian]

What does it mean to be a born again Christian? The classic passage from the Bible that answers this question is John 3:1-21. The Lord Jesus Christ is talking to Nicodemus, a prominent Pharisee and member of the Sanhedrin (a ruler of the Jews). Nicodemus had come to Jesus at night. Nicodemus had questions to ask Jesus.

As Jesus talked with Nicodemus, He said, “’I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’ ‘How can a man be born when he is old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again’” (John 3:3-7).

The phrase “born again” literally means “born from above.” Nicodemus had a real need. He needed a change of his heart—a spiritual transformation. New birth, being born again, is an act of God whereby eternal life is imparted to the person who believes (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18). John 1:12,13 indicates that “born again” also carries the idea “to become children of God” through trust in the name of Jesus Christ.

The question logically comes, “Why does a person need to be born again?” The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins…” (NKJV). To the Romans in Romans 3:23, the Apostle wrote, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” So, a person needs to be born again in order to have their sins forgiven and have a relationship with God.

How does that come to be? Ephesians 2:8-9 states, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” When one is “saved,” he/she has been born again, spiritually renewed, and is now a child of God by right of new birth. Trusting in Jesus Christ, the One who paid the penalty of sin when He died on the cross, is what it means to be “born again” spiritually. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

If you have never trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, will you consider the prompting of the Holy Spirit as He speaks to your heart? You need to be born again. Will you pray the prayer of repentance and become a new creation in Christ today? “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God” (John 1:12-13).

If you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and be born again, here is a sample prayer. Remember, saying this prayer or any other prayer will not save you. It is only trusting in Christ that can save you from sin. This prayer is simply a way to express to God your faith in Him and thank Him for providing for your salvation. “God, I know that I have sinned against you and am deserving of punishment. But Jesus Christ took the punishment that I deserve so that through faith in Him I could be forgiven. I place my trust in You for salvation. Thank You for Your wonderful grace and forgiveness—the gift of eternal life! Amen!”

Have you made a decision for Christ because of what you have read here? If so, please click on the “I have accepted Christ today” button below.

 

[Canardmom85]

There are a few verses that say we all sin. There are none that mention specifically what the protestant is looking for because there are many teachings that were so obvious of the time. Surely they (first Christians) understood that they would not just stop sinning the minute they accepted Jesus. Other than Mary…I doubt the protestant can show one example of a human that accepted Jesus and then stopped sinning (without obviously lying).

I find that arguing the bible is pointless with these types. The devil was a believer in Christ and quoted scripture in the gospels, protestants can too. It doesn’t mean they got it right. Really, the best way to teach a protestant about truth is to first defeat sola scriptura. Until you do that…everything is up to their personal interpretation which is unbiblical in itself. 2 Peter 1:20

 

[ababbidg]

When Jesus talked about being born again, he is talking about baptism. When Nicodemus asks Jesus how he could be born again Jesus replies with John 3:5 “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.” Being born of water and the Holy Spirit is baptism.

 

[thechristian]

Not water baptisum…spirtural baptisum into fullness of his finished work at the cross.

God loves you…god bless

 

[ababbidg]

Not water baptism? He literally says the word water. How could that not be water baptism?

 

[LegoGE1947]

What does it mean to be a born again Christian? The classic passage from the Bible that answers this question is John 3:1-21. The Lord Jesus Christ is talking to Nicodemus, a prominent Pharisee and member of the Sanhedrin (a ruler of the Jews). Nicodemus had come to Jesus at night. Nicodemus had questions to ask Jesus.

As Jesus talked with Nicodemus, He said, “’I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’ ‘How can a man be born when he is old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again’” (John 3:3-7).

The phrase “born again” literally means “born from above.” Nicodemus had a real need. He needed a change of his heart—a spiritual transformation. New birth, being born again, is an act of God whereby eternal life is imparted to the person who believes (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18). John 1:12,13 indicates that “born again” also carries the idea “to become children of God” through trust in the name of Jesus Christ.

The question logically comes, “Why does a person need to be born again?” The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins…” (NKJV). To the Romans in Romans 3:23, the Apostle wrote, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” So, a person needs to be born again in order to have their sins forgiven and have a relationship with God.

How does that come to be? Ephesians 2:8-9 states, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” When one is “saved,” he/she has been born again, spiritually renewed, and is now a child of God by right of new birth. Trusting in Jesus Christ, the One who paid the penalty of sin when He died on the cross, is what it means to be “born again” spiritually. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

If you have never trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, will you consider the prompting of the Holy Spirit as He speaks to your heart? You need to be born again. Will you pray the prayer of repentance and become a new creation in Christ today? “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God” (John 1:12-13).

If you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and be born again, here is a sample prayer. Remember, saying this prayer or any other prayer will not save you. It is only trusting in Christ that can save you from sin. This prayer is simply a way to express to God your faith in Him and thank Him for providing for your salvation. “God, I know that I have sinned against you and am deserving of punishment. But Jesus Christ took the punishment that I deserve so that through faith in Him I could be forgiven. I place my trust in You for salvation. Thank You for Your wonderful grace and forgiveness—the gift of eternal life! Amen!”

Have you made a decision for Christ because of what you have read here? If so, please click on the “I have accepted Christ today” button below.

Quite the opposite. I’ve been through all these spiritual and theological gymnastics and I want no more of it. So I have become Catholic, and I’ll stay Catholic thank you!

 

[erikhnh]

Thank you CM

Actually after my wife blocked the emails from the guy who you are thinking of he had someone else in his “church” start emailing her.

The whole problem is that since this guy is such a strict sola scripturist he rejects the idea that people sin after coming to Christ because the Bible does not specifically state, “once you are in Christ you can/will/may sin”. Or so he believes. He believes that the Bible says that we have all sinned, yes but not that we will continue in our sin after coming to Christ. Or so they believe. I guess since the Bible doesn’t specifically state word for word that we will have two feet after we are born again and become a new creation in Christ, we must not have two feet

Biggest Irony Mary never sinning is still looked at as a heresy to them. Seems like they want their cake and to eat it too.

Thanks again CM

God bless you

I read here all the time but rarely post, but I think it’s interesting that some of those once saved protestants don’t seem to realize that Paul is talking to people that were ALREADY IN the church. So that would assume that they were ALREADY SAVED! So why would he have the need to say “As for those that persist in sin…” ! Also in Eph 4:26, Also talking to ALREADY SAVED church members, “Be angry, but do not sin…” They ARE capable of sinning after they are Christians.

 

[thechristian]

So what your saing that one must be born of water (water baptisum) and then after that your are born of the spirit, Just like the baptisum of christ by the john baptist correct?

peace and blessings

 

[thechristian]

This verse saids nothing about water baptisum what do you think about it?

If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved " (Romans 10:9, 10).

 

[Solo1959]

I do have a legitimate question. I am not a weirdo. I am a Catholic. But I am familiar with another interpretation of this subject:

1 Corinthians 10:23
Douay-Rheims Bible
All things are lawful for me, but all things do not edify.

The interpretation being that once we are Christians, we are no longer living under the rule of sin and death.

That just as a dog or a cat or a mosquito can not sin and is not bound under the law of sin, neither is the Christian. Sin came into the world through Adam. Before his fall, there was nothing he could do that was sin. Even his nudity was not sin until after he fell. Then, and only then did he suffer the wages of sin.

But that Jesus freed us from sin and redeemed us. Not that we can’t do things that are bad, but that they aren’t counted as sin because the law has been fulfilled and we are no longer living under it.

I’m not very good at explaining it more that this, but I think I got the jist of it across.

I think that protestants who believe we don’t sin after accepting Jesus may really believe this other interpretation.

I don’t believe this, but I have thought about it and heard about it.

 

[ababbidg]

I’m not looking to debate faith vs. faith and works. I just want to know why Jesus mentioned water. It has to be relevant in some way.

 

[no2masters4life]

This verse says nothing about being justified in your heart, but rather in your works:

Jas.2

[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Does that mean we are not justified in our hearts? No, it means both verses apply to salvation, as the Church has always taught. You cannot cherry-pick the scriptures that appeal to your own understanding of baptism, but submit yourself to the traditions that have been written and spoken to you. We find this in Eph 4 as well:

[14] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.
[15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
[16] from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

**

I think BACs and other Protestants get blown about by every wind of doctrine. Grow in love by becoming a member of the Church.