1 Tim 5:20 & Eph. 4:26

[convert44]

to Fred Stoutland, I just read your “long comment” that I printed out last night. You said it a lot better than I but my previous comment does not mean to contradict at all.
Peace and Love

 

[SacredHeart1987]

This verse saids nothing about water baptisum what do you think about it?

If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved " (Romans 10:9, 10).

Romans 10:9-10 is a direct quote from Deut. 30:12-14. Romans 10:9 is drawn out when one confesses that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead. In the OT, they also confessed with their mouth by believing in God as their Savior(Psalm 106:21; Isaiah 43:3,11) in anticipation of the death and resurrection of Christ. Thus, God expected his people to live out the way of faith, a way “not too difficult,” In light of this, it is significant that Deuteronomy 30:14 finishes the statement “the word is very near you, it is in your mouth and in your heart” with the clause “so you may obey it,” whereas Romans 10:8 finishes it with “that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming.” Here Paul substitutes “faith” for “obedience” and it is apparent that he understands one as being intimately identified and in full compatibility with the other.

 

[fred_stoutland]

Great. So let me ask you. Since both you and this fundamentalist Christian I am speaking with are sola scripturist Christians (I am just guessing that you are, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) how would you go about showing him his error?

My answer to you is that I have learned people cannot persuade others who are set in their bias. So, if your friend is convinced he or she is right and you are wrong, then not much can be accomplished, and you run the risk of alienating each other. In fact, convicting people of core biblical error is the work of the Holy Spiirt - He is the Convictor of sin (John 16:8). We are only to lovingly state our beliefs and leave the rest up to Him.

On the other hand, if the person is open to debate, then I would say there is an opportunity for your views to be appropriately stated - if biblical, to be heard and accepted (you see, I believe final authority on core salvation issues rests with Scripture). Tradition or clarifying information is given by all religious leadership and that includes Protestantism. I do not believe that only Roman Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodoxism have official edicts known as Tradition. In various forms, so does Protestantism, albeit quite fractured because of the independent and denominational divisions we have.

Your friend who says that true Christians never sin is misinterpreting Scripture. When the sin issue is taken as a whole, the Bible writers are talking about habitual sin. “All of us sin and fall short of the glory of God” says Romans 3:23. The writers also say that once God has redeemed a person and adopted him or her into His kingdom, their self is minimized and Christ is magnified in him or her by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul - a magnificent man of God indeed - laments in Romans 7:14-25 that he doesn’t do the things he ought and does things he ought not do. He’s saying that he fights his flesh side all the time. We all do; that is the struggle of the Christian walk. Sure, we have a peace that the world doesn’t understand, but that peace is the assurance that we are one of God’s children and He is caring for us. It doesn’t keep us from our innate sin nature, which will not disappear until we see Christ face to face, so to speak.

As you know, during our lifetime, when sin is committed there is a shame and a distaste for that transgression because it stains our relationship with Christ. So much so, that we Christians are driven to beg forgiveness from God. The Bible says that we are to strive to be more like Christ and to work out our salvation. John 14:15 says that if we love Christ we will obey Him. The Bible also says that when Christ comes to receive us at His Second Coming before He judges the unredeemed, He will reward us for what we have done for Him as Christians according to such Scripture as 1 Corinthians 3:13-15. Christians whose life reveals true spiritual gold and silver (that is: the development of the “Fruit of Spirit” - Galatians 5:22-23) will receive eternal rewards in Heaven! I don’t know exactly what kind of rewards they will be, but I for one don’t want to face Christ and say I did little to bring Him the honor and glory that He deserved while I was here on this earth.

This might appear a little preachy. I don’t want it to be. I’m simply writing to someone who I believe loves Christ as much as I do.

If I haven’t answered your question fully to your satisfaction, please let me know. Blessings.

Same question. How do you show a sola scripturist christian, one who believes he and not you, is led by the Holy Spirit? How do you convince someone who considers you to be the one holding to heterodox beliefs? And of course he can support his belief by using the Bible.

Here is the statement:

The exchange above is a response by this man to a Protestant believer. So how would you two respond to this? Remember; this is a Protestant who believes in sola scriptura and believes he has been led by the Holy Spirit.

Also notice this “sola scripturist’s” denial of the the Protestant “faith alone” doctrine… He uses the Bible alone to disprove faith alone.

God bless

 

[jcrichton]

This is my first post ever. I read all the comments yesterday regarding this issue. I really don’t remember any mention of God’s Grace being sufficient for us. Also it seems to me the gifts and fruits of the Spirit play aren’t ,mentioned. Some overlook this and decieve themselves when focusing one one sctipture to prove a point. Not all non Catholics disagree with you. We walk with the same Lord. I do agree all in the end we should all be one as Jesus and our God are one. This was Jesus’s prayer in the Garden before His journey toward Crucifiction .
In God’s Peace and Love

I am an Episcopalion
I believe in one Holy and Catholic and Apostolic Church

I concur with you… grabbing a passage or two from Scritpures and believing that we have discovered some special formula/short-cut to Salvation is a grave error… one of today’s readings was St. John 5:25-29–I thought that this was a fantasticly charged passage because it contains so much in such a short trek:

John 5:25-29 (New International Version)
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Verse 25 opens with the dead hearing the voice of Christ, this of course is both the spiritual as well as the physical dead… but Scriptures tell us that the dead cannot know/do anything… so there’s seems to be a direct conflict

Verse 26 reveals that Jesus has Life in Himself–seemingly, another conflict since Scriptures tell us that Jesus dies and is resurrected by the Holy Spirit

Verse 27 designates Christ as the Judge… yet Christ Himself announces that He did not come to Judge the world but that through Him we may be Saved–further seeming conflict

Verse 28 finds Jesus speaking of Himself as the third person and directing His Salvific Plan to those that are clearly dead but contrary to verse 25 this time it is refrence only as a future time/occurrence; another seeming conflict or at least a redundancy of the statement made in verse 25

Verse 29 completes verse 28 and demonstrates the direct result of Jesus preaching to the dead/those on the graves; interestingly enough all of the dead rise but, as St. Matthew 25 Teaching’s, the separation and Judgment comes as a direct relationship between those who hear His Voice and Obey His Commandments and those who simply determine for themselves what they should or should not do in response to His Commands.

God’s Grace is indeed sufficient for Salvation but we must abide in Jesus (Obey His Commandments) in order to particate of God’s Gift (St. John 15:1-12).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[losh14]

Just a few points to work off Fred’s excellent (kudos magnificos) post.

“mainstream church” is defined as those Bible-believing churches (they believe Scripture is the Word of God, authoritative and best understood when studied in the plain sense in which it was written)

I would venture that it is how one believes in the Bible that makes for the differences in the many non-Catholic churches. Note that the existence of a differing interpretation does not refute Scripture itself, nor destroy the credibility of that interpretation. It does create a higher hurdle, for when differing views (Arminianism and Calvinism as you offered) emerge, neither can sufficiently point to one passage but must explain those passages which would refute it. The rhetorical advantage of Catholicism is that we can appeal to Tradition and say that it has always been taught (divinity of Christ), or rather that after long consideration by those with authority it has been defined (Trinity). But if you reject the notion of unifying central human leadership under Christ, that goes away.

They believe a true Christian (not just a spirtually-minded person who goes to church) is a transformed person destined for the new heaven and new earth in eternity - and made so by the grace and mercy of God. Many church demographic professionals say that they constitute a majority of the Protestant Christian community.

If you aren’t being transformed, you’re going through the motions. Internal conversion is a constant calling. On your second point, I work in marketing sciences and I’d want to know what methods the demographers are using before accepting their findings. I’ve attended a few non-Catholic services in different churches, and in almost all I’ve found a number of people going through the motions. The exception are the very small churches where the pastor exhibits a high degree of intimate knowledge (if not control) of the congregation - perhaps some time I’ll tell you about my experience with the ICOC.

In contrast, Protestant mainline churches - generally speaking … have changed their primary ministry focus from the good news of salvation to the good news of social justice. For the most part, they de-emphasize the doctrines of heaven and hell and instead focus on the here and now. Their doctines of eternity are pushed aside in many cases.

You make a good point, but I think you’re conflating two problems here. One is universalism, certainly, in which worship of the Living God becomes a feel-good me-focused exercise. Such a message attracts followers because it’s an easy one and lends itself well to celebration. It’s also devoid, the fast food of theology.

The second point, social justice, doesn’t always intermingle with universalism, although I suppose if you take the Bible, remove the Holy God, you’re left with the Loving God and that’s Who you imitate. Preached-to correctly, a Bible-believer will be a transformed and transforming new person in Christ whose love for Christ leads them in works of mercy, charity, love and forgiveness. Evangelism becomes an integral part of the believer, such that what is done for the believer’s constant internal conversion is also done to spread the Gospel to the world.

There really does have to be a balance. Grace is the beginning, and faith is the choice that follows. Once one has accepted Christ, though, there is the “Now what?” and that answer includes evangelizing both His Holiness and His Love. To be Holy without being Love makes Christ remote. To be Love without being Holy makes Christ irrelevant. Together, though, the believer testifies with his or her life to Christ.

I’ve done a very diligent study off and on these past ten years as to why there are different views in Protestantism. It’s easy to say they come about because of apostates or false teachers. But there are sincere people who are mistaken, earnestly believing they have interpreted Scripture correctly. So mingled between the phonies are mistaken and misguided followers of Christ.

Mt 13:28-30.

These two doctrines are widely debated by conservative Christians who divide themselves into two opposing camps, the Calvinists and the Arminians.

Would it resolve the difference to explain that precognition is not predestination - that God may know our choice but not command it? Just a thought from Bible study with a group of Presbyterians.

Although their references for their positions are not from Cathollic versions of the Bible

I know we disagree on books, but aren’t our Gospels and Epistles the same as yours, within a given translation?

there are divisions of thought that separate Catholics - such as found in Eastern Rite Catholicism.

Those divisions are less on substance than on form. A Latin Rite Catholic (as most Catholics in the U.S. are) can attend a Maronite (Syrian Rite) Church and find no challenge to the doctrine that he or she understands. In 1894, Pope Leo XIII imposed a penalty on any missionary attempting to convert Eastern Rite Catholics to Latin Rite.

Eastern Orthodox has some more substantial differences.

You, my friends have your convictions, and I, as a conservative-minded Protestant Christian have mine. Let’s not disparage each other on non-essentials. Let us be charitable, clinging to the fundamental and essential truth that God so loved the world that He gave us His Son to die in our stead so that we may have a life of purity imputed by the blood of Christ here on this earth and then in eternity with Him - without pain or sorrow, only the joy of serving Him always.

Amen, my brother.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

hog wash no one is perfect!

God bless

 

[convert44]

I just reread the scripture in 1 Tim. and Eph. I could not remember the original issue. So now I bring up a new slant. First of all these readings were taken completely out of context.
Now for my view. The message is regarding confession and absolution. I recently saw a program on EWTN on this subject. The Priests told about the history of confession. The sinner would confess in front of his community (? small group, or gathering).
Jesus loves us ALL so that we may all be one “just as He and the father are one”.
In God’s Peace and Love,
Still an Episcopalion

 

[JRKH]

Quote:
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 1 Tim 5:20

I have not read through all of the responses here but I would say that this is just another example of how oversimplification leads to error. If persons in the community do not sin, then there is no need for rebuking them.

The idea of conversion and falling away and sin, venial or mortal, and reconciliation is as simple in principle as it is complex in practice.
As Christians we must renounce sin, we must hate our sin and we must lift up our brothers who fall into sin. Each time we ourselves sin we must run to God ASAP in contrition to be restored. We must struggle mightily to renounce ourselves and our sinful flesh for the Glory of God and for our greater happiness with Him in Heaven.

What we must NOT do is fall into the idea that we can’t sin if we are true believers and that those who sin are not true believers. Such beliefs will cause us to either, lose hope because we can’t stop sinning (in small ways) or we will “redefine” sin so that what we do “isn’t really sinning”. In other words such a belief can lead to Justifying sin or losing hope instead of continuing on the Journey in Faith, In Hope, and in Trust of God’s Mercy.

Peace
James

 

[PJM]

=Roman_Catholic Are these verses teaching that Christians will cease sinning? I have come across a protestant that believes that we actually become perfect here on earth. That “true Christians” actually cease sinning and that those who do fall back into sin are false converts. 1 Tim 5:20 and Eph. 4:26 are the verses that has been used to support this belief. God bless

No! and No again!

1 Tim. 5: 20 “As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.”

Refers to those who choose to be obstinate in their sins; choose to ignore and God and live by "it is only wrong if I say that its wrong."

Mk. 2: 17 "And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Mt. 9: 13"Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

Lk. 5:31 "And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

James 4: 7 “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection.10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.”

Lk. 13: 1"There were some present at that very time who told him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered thus? 3 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Jn. 5: 5 "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10* If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

21 "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."**

Love and prayers,

If ALL of humanity were not sinners, why the need to seek Confession and repetance?

 

[adriancombe]

I do have a legitimate question. I am not a weirdo. I am a Catholic. But I am familiar with another interpretation of this subject:

1 Corinthians 10:23
Douay-Rheims Bible
All things are lawful for me, but all things do not edify.

The interpretation being that once we are Christians, we are no longer living under the rule of sin and death.

See the context of 1 Cor 6:12 (same book) and you will realize why this interpretation is dishonest. The ‘all things’ (panta in both instances) cannot include sin as seen in v 8-9. Paul is talking about material things like meat and belly (v 13)

(6:8) But you do wrong and defraud, and that to your brethren. (6:9) Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, (6:10) Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God. (6:11) And such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God. (6:12) All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful to me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (6:13) Meat for the belly, and the belly for the meats; but God shall destroy both it and them: but the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. (6:14) Now God hath both raised up the Lord, and will raise us up also by his power. (6:15) Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

rebuke them!!

make peace!!