1 Timothy 3:15

[Seeking12]

I probably won’t be on much today but I wanted to ask Seeking12 a couple of questions.

1. Do you consider Catholics to be Christians? **It matters not what I think; more important is the question; does an individual have the right relationship with God? I will say the more devout one is to their religion; the less likely they have that right relationship.
   **
2. Touching on the “Tell it To The Church” idea, If a case of doctrine that you considered fundamental came before your congregation and the vote went against you, what would you do? Would you submit to the majority? First, I would hope that I would never put the church in that position, but yes I would submit.

Peace
James

 

[Seeking12]

I would like a clarification on the highlighted part.
may I ask who are those in authroity over you?

Excuse me for a while - I must go to morning mass and communion.
It’s Ash wednesday and the beginning of the Lenten Season.
Praise God.

Peace
James

First and foremost is the Lord, but I was referencing those in the work place and government.

 

[Odell]

You put your faith in an institution; that I don’t understand. You lack the basic understanding of Jesus church.

We put our faith in Jesus

Think logically here

The apostles when they spoke you heard truth
There followers trusted in what they had to say that is not a misplaced faith we trust in what the church has to say the pillar and bulwark of truth

You however do have a misplaced faith in yourself
If you have a heart for God; realizing you have nothing to offer God because compared to Him you are dung, put your faith in Christ alone with a true heart of repentance and believe that God raised Him from the dead; you will be saved!

Actually you being a man of scripture should know that offer ourselves to God by they grace that he gives us

Paul could not say offer you body’s as a living sacrafice if that was not the case

 

[Seeking12]

We put our faith in Jesus

Think logically here

The apostles when they spoke you heard truth
There followers trusted in what they had to say that is not a misplaced faith we trust in what the church has to say the pillar and bulwark of truth

Actually you being a man of scripture should know that offer ourselves to God by they grace that he gives us

Paul could not say offer you body’s as a living sacrafice if that was not the case

Please take you time and reread what you are writing. If you are making a point or asking a question, please reiterate. Thanks.

 

[wisdomseeker]

So you know Greek and Hebrew; that’s wonderful.

No. the Catholic version. the original Version… i know you avoid the Catholic Church, that is ok.

“**I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **

 

[tmac1956]

Do you think this was perhaps part of God’s plan? If not why?

God lives in the eternal now and knows all things from the beginning to the end. You kniow… Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Almost everything I do is for the Lord. Loving my wife, teaching my children the way of the Lord, being obedient to those in authority over me, feeding and clothing the hungry and poor, visiting the sick, praying without ceasing, loving my neighbor, sharing the gospel, diligence in reading the Word, suffering for His name sake. I still have a long way to grow, but that is one of the great things about God; there is so much richness in His glory that we literally spend a lifetime in discovery and never run into the end.

Now I go back to my question; what makes you believe you are a Christian?**

those are all honorable things. i hope you continue to do them.

now, i dont know what you heard about Catholics and from whom.
what matters is that whatever it is you believed. you have come here and try to use the Holy Book to admonish us Catholics. you probably have no idea what is the CC, what we know about Christ and His Church, yet you continue to talk. you talk a lot we can see that.

now why dont you be a good judge and hear us before you pronounce our sentencing.

we know you can read the Holy Book. you are eager to show us that you can read. we hear you.

**
“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **

 

[Odell]

Please take you time and reread what you are writing. If you are making a point or asking a question, please reiterate. Thanks.

Puting trust in the apostles is no different then puting trust in those who have succeeded theme

Our faith is in Christ

Our trust is in the church

I can say you put faith in youself if you want to play that game

We are not dung Jesus came to take away my sin I’m created new in Christ if you choose to remain dung you lack the undestanding of Christ the redeemer

Paul said to offer our bodies as a living sacrafice

We do have something to offer when we are in Christ

I can see though someone who is content being dung has nothing to offer

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
I probably won’t be on much today but I wanted to ask Seeking12 a couple of questions.

1. Do you consider Catholics to be Christians?

So this indicates that you see nothing in Catholic Doctrine that precludes one being a christian. Therefore I may be both Catholic and Christian in your eyes. This is good. Since Catholicsm is the source and center of Christendom.
While I can’t agree with a direct correlation between devotion and “right relationship” I will agree that there are many in ANY Church or denomination that “go through the motions” and thus do not have a real/right relationship.

2) Touching on the “Tell it To The Church” idea, If a case of doctrine that you considered fundamental came before your congregation and the vote went against you, what would you do? Would you submit to the majority?

First, I would hope that I would never put the church in that position, but yes I would submit.

I am glad to hear you say this as it shows humility. However it seems to fly in the face of your idea of the “Indwelling of the Holy Spirit” guiding one personally. If you are firmly opposed to the proposed doctrine, that is the “Spirit” tells you it is wrong, why would you submit to something - as merely human - as a vote? Why would you submit to the authority of “the church or congregation.”?

Peace
James

 

[Seeking12]

So this indicates that you see nothing in Catholic Doctrine that precludes one being a christian. Therefore I may be both Catholic and Christian in your eyes. This is good. Since Catholicsm is the source and center of Christendom.
While I can’t agree with a direct correlation between devotion and “right relationship” I will agree that there are many in ANY Church or denomination that “go through the motions” and thus do not have a real/right relationship.

I am glad to hear you say this as it shows humility. However it seems to fly in the face of your idea of the “Indwelling of the Holy Spirit” guiding one personally. If you are firmly opposed to the proposed doctrine, that is the “Spirit” tells you it is wrong, why would you submit to something - as merely human - as a vote? Why would you submit to the authority of “the church or congregation.”?

Peace
James

**

When I say a devout person; I mean they are so steeped into their religion, that the religion becomes the priority. I see that here all the time, but it is not just here. There are those you spoke of that like to play church.

The authority in our local church is the congregation; lead by the Deacons and Pastor. This is the Biblical model, which I know you disagree with, but a quick search on the words church and churches and in the NT will quickly reveal this is a local assembly. The key is, who is building the church, Christ or man?

Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

Acts chapter 20, starting in verse 17 should rid anyone of the notion of Apostle succession and show that the authority of the church is at the local level and it is by grace through faith in Christ. You should read it in it entirety and feel the pain and the warning Paul was feeling and giving. It is a wonderful chapter.

searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ac+20:28&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en

"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. **

 

[Soutane]

**

When I say a devout person; I mean they are so steeped into their religion, that the religion becomes the priority. I see that here all the time, but it is not just here. There are those you spoke of that like to play church.

The authority in our local church is the congregation; lead by the Deacons and Pastor. This is the Biblical model, which I know you disagree with, but a quick search on the words church and churches and in the NT will quickly reveal this is a local assembly. The key is, who is building the church, Christ or man?

Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

Acts chapter 20, starting in verse 17 should rid anyone of the notion of Apostle succession and show that the authority of the church is at the local level and it is by grace through faith in Christ. You should read it in it entirety and feel the pain and the warning Paul was feeling and giving. It is a wonderful chapter.

searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ac+20:28&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en**

"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Typical Protestant fallible and errant Bible interpretation designed to support Protestant Tradition and completely lacking in ANY authority,other than personally self claimed.

 

[guanophore]

I am a devout catholic but I get nervous about so many catholics claiming that we are the only church that holds the truth,

The truth can be found in many places. The Catholic Church holds the fullness of the faith, meaning, the fullest form of the faith Jesus taught.

The truth is Jesus He is the one who died for us not a church I know that Jesus founded the church…

Yes, but Jesus is not separated from His Bride, and One Body, the Church.

and what is the church ? is it not a body of believers that try to follow Jesus ?.

Yes, but that is not all it is, which is why most of our separated brethren have a deficient view of “church”. These bodies are more properly called “ecclesial communities”.

who knows the hearts of our protestantes brothers and sisters., God is the judge who are we to say that we are the only ones that hold the truth…Jesus is for everyone who calls on His name …

All of our separated brethren have part of the truth. Each of htem has taken some measure of what Jesus left with the Catholic Church. they are in unity with us to the extent that they have retained Catholic Teaching. All of them reject some parts of Jesus teaching, some more than others.

about the Bible it says in Timothy 3: 16 that the Bible is inspired by God that is where we take all our readings and prayers for the mass .this is a simple approach I know not a trace of theology but if Jesus said the kingdom of god belongs to children .wow…Let us pray for unity and love for all christians …that is the only way the world knowns we are following Jesus Christ.love… Judite

I will Amen that prayer!

 

[guanophore]

**You put your faith in an institution; that I don’t understand. You lack the basic understanding of Jesus church.

If you have a heart for God; realizing you have nothing to offer God because compared to Him you are dung, put your faith in Christ alone with a true heart of repentance and believe that God raised Him from the dead; you will be saved!**

There are a number of errors in this post. The first one is that there seems to be an assumption that Jesus is separated from His Holy Bride, the Church. This is not the case. To be a member of Christ is to be a member of His Bride.

The second is that we have nothing to offer God. This attitude about “dung” comes from an erroneous conception about the nature of mankind. We are created in the image and likeness of God. It is our spiritual duty to offer ourselves to Him, and we are not “dung”. We are created in Christ for the good works that He has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. We have everything that we are to offer Him.

Third, it is a grievious error to “compare” our selves to God. We are creatures, and fulfill His intention for us when we are the creatures He made us to be. We are not made to be divine, and we have no comparison with His divinity.

Fourth, Christ is never “alone”. He chose to be born into a human family, and chose to adopt us into His family of believers. When we become members of Him, we become members of one another.

I think it is not Catholics who have a deficient view of the Church!

The problem with that theology is that it ignores that the body of Christ is one heart and one person at a time. It also ignores the fact that God is not a respecter of persons, much less an institution that claims to speak for Him.

No, the Catholic Church recognizes that there are members of the Body that are outside the visible boundaries of Catholicism.

The Catholic Church does not contain the fullness of faith because God is a “respecter of persons”. The foundation of the faith is the Cornerstone, Jesus, and the Apostles and prophets upon whom the foundation is set. Jesus committed the fullness of His teaching to these, and it has been preserved by the HS through the unbroken line of Apostolic Succession. It is not because of the fallible people who are members, but because of the divine elements that the Church is infallible. It is the Divine protection that enabled Jesus to say “He who hears you hears me”.

 

[Ilroy]

I do not have the luxury of “picking and choosing” which doctrines to believe. I do know that if I did n’t follow what the Bible says and study for myself I would be like some- believing that: ineterracial relationships are a sin
Movies were created by the devil
Cutting my hair is a sin
Wearing pants (I’m a female) is sinful
Make- up is a BIG no,no
Do you get my point.

This is rich!!! They whom believe those things DO (think they) follow what the Bible says and DO study for themselves…why do you think there are so many varying doctrines??? BECAUSE of self study/self interpretation.

 

[Seeking12]

Typical Protestant fallible and errant Bible interpretation designed to support Protestant Tradition and completely lacking in ANY authority,other than personally self claimed.

**You could never make such a claim if you had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and knew who God is.

I have been warned about you and so I am leaving this thread. Good bye.

**

 

[Seeking12]

There are a number of errors in this post. The first one is that there seems to be an assumption that Jesus is separated from His Holy Bride, the Church. This is not the case. To be a member of Christ is to be a member of His Bride.

The second is that we have nothing to offer God. This attitude about “dung” comes from an erroneous conception about the nature of mankind. We are created in the image and likeness of God. It is our spiritual duty to offer ourselves to Him, and we are not “dung”. We are created in Christ for the good works that He has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. We have everything that we are to offer Him.

Third, it is a grievious error to “compare” our selves to God. We are creatures, and fulfill His intention for us when we are the creatures He made us to be. We are not made to be divine, and we have no comparison with His divinity.

Fourth, Christ is never “alone”. He chose to be born into a human family, and chose to adopt us into His family of believers. When we become members of Him, we become members of one another.

I think it is not Catholics who have a deficient view of the Church!

No, the Catholic Church recognizes that there are members of the Body that are outside the visible boundaries of Catholicism.

The Catholic Church does not contain the fullness of faith because God is a “respecter of persons”. The foundation of the faith is the Cornerstone, Jesus, and the Apostles and prophets upon whom the foundation is set. Jesus committed the fullness of His teaching to these, and it has been preserved by the HS through the unbroken line of Apostolic Succession. It is not because of the fallible people who are members, but because of the divine elements that the Church is infallible. It is the Divine protection that enabled Jesus to say “He who hears you hears me”.

**If the Church recognizes members of the body outside of the Catholic Church, then the Church proves itself fallible because the implication of the Council of Trent is polar opposite to what you claimed. It wasn’t till Vat II that they changed the term to “separated brethren” and this has caused much dissension within the Church.

Anyway, I’m splitting from this thread.**

 

[JRKH]

When I say a devout person; I mean they are so steeped into their religion, that the religion becomes the priority. I see that here all the time, but it is not just here. There are those you spoke of that like to play church.

The authority in our local church is the congregation; lead by the Deacons and Pastor. This is the Biblical model, which I know you disagree with, but a quick search on the words church and churches and in the NT will quickly reveal this is a local assembly. The key is, who is building the church, Christ or man?

Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

Acts chapter 20, starting in verse 17 should rid anyone of the notion of Apostle succession and show that the authority of the church is at the local level and it is by grace through faith in Christ. You should read it in it entirety and feel the pain and the warning Paul was feeling and giving. It is a wonderful chapter.

searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ac+20:28&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en

"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

So if I may equate this to the Catholic Church I can say that your “Magisterium” (Latin for Teaching Office) that is to say your teaching authority is the congregation led by the deacons and pastor. Under this system, as expressed in our conversations here, the entire community is expected to comply with the decisions of the majority. (I recognize that this is somewhat of a simplification.)
This is really no different than the way the Catholic Church functions. The main difference would be that we see the ENTIRE Church as one community. That is - our “congregation” is over 1 Billion souls located around the world.
Certainly Catholics debate things as do the Clergy. These things are sorted out as they move around and “up the chain” as it were. Issues are checked and rechecked against Scripture, Sacred Tradition and other pertinent Church teachings over the last 2000 years.

So what I am gently saying to you is this. Your “Biblical” model is not that different from our “Biblical” model except in size and procedures. You rely not just on your own study and interpretation, guided by the Spirit, but the ideas and interpretations of others within your community. I’m sure your pastor has a significant impact upon everyones interpretation.
And, of course, in both of our communities, the Sacred Scriptures are central. The difference is in interpretation.
Maybe our communites aren’t so different as you might suppose.

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

]If the Church recognizes members of the body outside of the Catholic Church, then the Church proves itself fallible because the implication of the Council of Trent is polar opposite to what you claimed. It wasn’t till Vat II that they changed the term to “separated brethren” and this has caused much dissension within the Church.

No, the Church is not fallible. SHe is not because Her Head is Christ, and Her Soul is the Holy Spirit. However, those fallible persons attached to her can sometimes be limited in understanding.

Trent was a response to rampant heresies, and the proclamations made were done in an effort to respond to those errors.

It is true that Vat II shed more light on how we can properly relate to persons such as yourself, who, though they have espoused heretical ideas, cannot be charged with the sin of heresy.

hey always, well my lack of knowledge of what the catholic church teaches is my badge of honor

Anyway, I’m splitting from this thread.

I think it has been made quite clear that the Scripture shown in the title does not in any way support that Scripture should replace the authority that Jesus gave to the Church. No doubt your job here is done.

 

[Soutane]

**You could never make such a claim if you had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and knew who God is.

I have been warned about you and so I am leaving this thread. Good bye.

**

The claim that I make is hardly unique among Catholics,nor do I suppose, is my tone.I resent the judgement that you have passed on me personally.I challenge you to refute ONE word that I have said in that paragraph.But you won’t…because you drop an intolerable insult to my Christianity and personal integrity and then run away.I judged what you SAID and found it lacking and stated so.YOU judged me personally which is an insult not only to me but to God Himself as that is HIS sole purview.

If you feel so strongly about me I invite you to pray for me as I will for you.

 

[guanophore]

**You got to quit thinking of the church as a single institution.
**

you may not be aware, Seeking12, but it is against the forum rules to come to CAF and encourage Catholics to abandon the faith we have received from the Apostles. if you wish to engage in this activity, you are encouraged to start your own anti-catholic site or join one of the many alread operating.

The Aposltes taught that Jesus only has one body, and that it is visible here on earth by those who are in unity with themselves and their successors (the bishops).

Eph 4:4-7
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

The command from you that we have “got to quit” does not change this truth.