1 Timothy 3:15

[wisdomseeker]

**I have no interest in destroying your faith, nor could I, nor could I convert one soul.

By the way in relation to you “handle”; the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom; I hope you understand the full meaning of this; it is obvious to me that you have no fear of the Lord.**

it is obviously to me that you have no understanding of the Church and what she represents here on earth, untill you do you will go around and around reading Bible verses to us.

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrko.html

perhaps this will give you some insight about who we are.

 

[wisdomseeker]

*This is an interesting question. I do not know.

Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory.

The obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same is somthing else again entirely.*

humnnnn!!! interesting. thks.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I just thought I would interject that, while I know this thread is moving pretty quickly and some things can be overlooked, I find most interesting the questions and points that seeking12 chooses NOT to address. In many ways it is far more revealing of his position than the points he does.

Let us keep evangelizing in Christian Charity folks.

Peace
James

i dont think he is interested in understanding the Word of God as much as reading it.

 

[Seeking12]

So, Obviously since my reading of the SAME GOSPEL TEXT AS YOU leads me to some different conclusions that you, I must accept YOUR interpretation or remain in sin.

We read our Gospels from the same Texts. I have proclaimed the Gospel to you and you have rejected it. Therefore, by your own standard, unless you accept MY interpretion, you will Die in YOUR sin.

Can you see the dilemma here?
By the way I am not condemning you here, we are talking about the ramifications of your interpretation that each individual can hold another individual in their “sin” based upon a personal interpretation of scripture.

Peace
James

**Every interpretation is of an individual or group of individuals; the difference is getting it right, which only the Holy Spirit can lead one to the truth as revealed in Scripture. The proof is the same material is being read, but two very different conclusion as to the truth of what is being read. Only 3 possibilities exist 1) we are both wrong 2) you are wrong or 3) I am wrong.

I see no dilemma for myself; I know where I stand with God and I am very thankful.**

 

[Seeking12]

i dont think he is interested in understanding the Word of God as much as reading it.

Wisdom; how much time do you actually devote yourself to the Word and to the Lord?

 

[DavWan]

Wisdom; how much time do you actually devote yourself to the Word and to the Lord?

And will you judge him based on that? Didn’t Jesus say something about that in Matt. 7?

 

[DavWan]

**Every interpretation is of an individual or group of individuals; the difference is getting it right, which only the Holy Spirit can lead one to the truth as revealed in Scripture. The proof is the same material is being read, but two very different conclusion as to the truth of what is being read. Only 3 possibilities exist 1) we are both wrong 2) you are wrong or 3) I am wrong.

I see no dilemma for myself; I know where I stand with God and I am very thankful.**

I’ll take option 3. If we apply your logic to ourselves, We “know” we are right because we are Catholics by conviction of its truth by reading Scripture. If we apply our beliefs, we know we are right because of what Scripture says and what the early Christians say in testimony.

Have seen nothing to show me you are right. Therefore 1 and 2 are out.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdom; how much time do you actually devote yourself to the Word and to the Lord?

Let’s see. i go to the Church Jesus found. i obey the Church. i love our Mother the Virgen Mary. i believe the Body, Blood and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist. i call father the priests, Bishops, and the holy father. i hold them in great honor. i confess my sins to them. i bowl and kneel before the altar, Body and Blood of Christ. i hold the Saints in high honor. i help those in need when needed. i obey the Commandments of God although sometimes i fail. i believe in the Church Jesus found. i hear the Apostles and their successores in obedience to Christ. i ask the help of the Saints when i cannot pray. i receive the Sacraments instituted by Christ. i could go on and on…but i dont want to overwhelm you. how about you?

 

[JRKH]

Let’s see. i go to the Church Jesus found. i obey the Church. i love our Mother the Virgen Mary. i believe the Body, Blood and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist. i call father the priests, Bishops, and the holy father. i hold them in great honor. i confess my sins to them. i bowl and kneel before the altar, Body and Blood of Christ. i hold the Saints in high honor. i help those in need when needed. i obey the Commandments of God although sometimes i fail. i believe in the Church Jesus found. i hear the Apostles and their successores in obedience to Christ. i ask the help of the Saints when i cannot pray. i could go on and on…but i dont want to overwhelm you. how about you?

Nice list…
I would add to this that, each time we go to mass we hear two or three readings from the Bible, (three on Sundays and two during the week) and not just a verse from here and a verse from there, but whole passages which are then discussed by the pastor in his homily.

I would also note to our friend that I can go to a worship service every day and not just a couple of times a week. I can and do recieve the glorified Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ into my Body several times a week. Not a symbol, but the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of God coming into my body.

Peace
James

 

[wisdomseeker]

Nice list…
I would add to this that, each time we go to mass we hear two or three readings from the Bible, (three on Sundays and two during the week) and not just a verse from here and a verse from there, but whole passages which are then discussed by the pastor in his homily.

I would also note to our friend that I can go to a worship service every day and not just a couple of times a week. I can and do recieve the glorified Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ into my Body several times a week. Not a symbol, but the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of God coming into my body.

Peace
James

yes. i remember what mother Angeliec said: "while others talk about Christ, we commune with Him.

 

[Seeking12]

I’ll take option 3. If we apply your logic to ourselves, We “know” we are right because we are Catholics by conviction of its truth by reading Scripture. If we apply our beliefs, we know we are right because of what Scripture says and what the early Christians say in testimony.

Have seen nothing to show me you are right. Therefore 1 and 2 are out.

**
Do you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?**

 

[Seeking12]

yes. i remember what mother Angeliec said: "while others talk about Christ, we commune with Him.

Again you have it somewhat backwards; isn’t the real question; does Jesus commune with you? Many claim to commune with Jesus, but few does He commune with.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Every interpretation is of an individual or group of individuals; the difference is getting it right, which only the Holy Spirit can lead one to the truth as revealed in Scripture. The proof is the same material is being read, but two very different conclusion as to the truth of what is being read. Only 3 possibilities exist 1) we are both wrong 2) you are wrong or 3) I am wrong.

I see no dilemma for myself; I know where I stand with God and I am very thankful.**

this reminds of what father Corapi said: the HS will never speak against the CC. " if anyone claiming to have the HS and speak against the Holy Church we can rest assure that is not the Spirit of God." i like that.

 

[guanophore]

**
Matthew 18:18 is where the authority to loose and bind is given to all disciples of Jesus. it is not limited to Peter, nor the Apostles.**

This authority is given to the Apostles, and those in unity with them. Everything written in scripture is “for” you, but not all of it is “about” you.

I guess that settles it; all of God’s elect can be seen at your local Catholic church. Interesting that the Scripture never capitalized the word “church”; don’t you follow the Apostolic example?

The authority to settle disputes lies with the “church”, and to create this, Jesus gave authority to His Apostles, and they to their successors.

You are going to tell me that if you could present the gospel to someone and they told you that “you and your god can go to hell; I don’t believe your so called god”; that you wouldn’t feel comfortable telling them the Kingdom is not open to them; you remain in your sin?

Yes, but that is really not the most efffective response to such persons. Jesus only used this kind of language with those who said they believed. For such persons, treating them as if they are a neighbor in need (as in the Good Samaritan parable) is much more effective. This is the gospel in action.

Give me a break, anyone that can present the gospel has the same “key” and “authority” because it comes from the very word of God and by saying that to this fictitious person; you are merely restating what heaven has already said.

If the keys and the authority were about that, this would be true, but they are not. What you are saying is accurate, this is something we can all say, and it would be true. It is not what the reference of key and binding and loosing is about, though.
Give me a break, anyone that can present the gospel has the same “key” and “authority” because it comes from the very word of God and by saying that to this fictitious person; you are merely restating what heaven has already said.

**Silly Bible-only people; sticking with the word of God; silly foolish people; don’t you know there is the See of Rome; She is greater than the word of God; we will tell you it is the same, but us silly Bible-believers just are so stupid and blind; we will never know salvation from that silly Bible.

Just having a light moment.**

Seeking, Catholicity is not limited to the successor of Peter. The Church is not greater than the Word of God, but neither is the Bible. Jesus is the Word, and it is He that built both the Bible, and the Church. Salvation is not found “from” the Bible, but from the Person of Jesus.

However after seeing the flow of the entire messages; what is obvious is that these Jews were stirring up the people and blaspheming God and distorting what Paul had already preached. Since Jerusalem was the place where the Apostles and Jewish authorities were firmly established, so to speak, it is the place the people seeking answers wanted to verify and sort out the truth. It would be common for Jews to be accustomed to settling things at Jerusalem.

Seeking, this has nothing to do with Jews. It is about Christians, and Apostolic Teaching. The Apostles, in whom Jesus placed the authority of the keys and the binding and loosing, were in Jerusalem.

This does not imply that this was the normal thing; probably why we have only this example. There are other examples where Paul is instructing the elders on how to sort their problems out; without appealing to Jerusalem. You must also look at the whole picture, the church is in it’s infancy and Jesus established these Godly Apostles to get the whole thing off the ground and running and as you can see they are feeling some growing pains.

On the contrary, this is the model that has been used since the first century. It was not distorted until the Reformation.

This is no way establishes a Catholic authority.

I think the greater part of the root of Protestantism results from problems with authority.

The authority Jesus established in His Apostles, they passed on to their successors,the bishops. This is the teaching, binding, and loosing authority that exists today. This is how Jesus set things up.

 

[guanophore]

Catholics did not write the NT; they didn't exist at the time.

They did, Seeking. Scripture testifies to this.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

The “men moved by the HS” that wrote the NT were Catholic.

 When did the word Catholic, in reference to the Catholic Church, first appear? 1st, 2nd or perhaps 3rd century..maybe you could help me here.

The reference to the Church as Catholic already appears in the book of Acts, so it was in use by the time that book was written within 20 years of the Lord’s resurrection.

Acts 9:31

31 So **the church throughout **all Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.

This reference in Gk. is kath holos = “the Church throughout” - Catholic.

Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, where they were first called “Christians” writes to the Smyrnians:

Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be, just as wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church" (8:1, 2).

This was not later than 110 AD.

**The Scripture say the church is built upon the prophets and Apostles; which is their proclamation of the Truth of God in Jesus.

Nothing more or less. That is why anyone who can present the gospel has the authority and power to loose and bind.**

It is not just the “proclamation” of the Gospel upon which the Church is built, but the authority that was placed in them by Jesus. People not in unity with them attempting to exercise authority were considered in a state of rebellion.

Scripture will always verify it self;

I was taught this erroneous notion also. It took a long time for me to realize it is not true.

it is the gift of the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible in the first place , but you must first have the indwelling, then you must be diligent in reading, hearing and studying and God has commanded. No one is perfect in its interpretation; there are things we cannot fully understand in our finite fallen selves.

This is precisely WHY the Church needed the gift of infallibility.

The Spirit of God is infallible, that is why Jesus sent Him to lead us into all truth.

it is obvious to me that you have no fear of the Lord.

Since fear of the Lord is a matter of the deep heart, what you are saying is that you are able to take the place of God, and to read and interpret the hearts of others.

**Every interpretation is of an individual or group of individuals; the difference is getting it right, which only the Holy Spirit can lead one to the truth as revealed in Scripture. The proof is the same material is being read, but two very different conclusion as to the truth of what is being read. Only 3 possibilities exist 1) we are both wrong 2) you are wrong or 3) I am wrong. **

Yes, but Jesus did not promise to send His spirit to lead any random group of individuals into the truth. He sent the Spirit to the Church, which is founded upon the Apsostles. without this Spirit, we are at the mercy of our fallibility. Infallibility is the gift that Peter was exercising when He proclaimed Jesus to be the Christ. It is revealed by God.

this reminds of what father Corapi said: the HS will never speak against the CC. " if anyone claiming to have the HS and speak against the Holy Church we can rest assure that is not the Spirit of God." i like that.

True. The full deposit of faith was given to the Church “once for all”. Therefore, whatever we understand that comes afterward will not contradict what was given.

 

[Judite]

Where does the Protestant Church come in?

I am a devout catholic but I get nervous about so many catholics claiming that we are the only church that holds the truth, The truth is Jesus He is the one who died for us not a church I know that Jesus founded the church… and what is the church ? is it not a body of believers that try to follow Jesus ?. who knows the hearts of our protestantes brothers and sisters., God is the judge who are we to say that we are the only ones that hold the truth…Jesus is for everyone who calls on His name …about the Bible it says in Timothy 3: 16 that the Bible is inspired by God that is where we take all our readings and prayers for the mass .this is a simple approach I know not a trace of theology but if Jesus said the kingdom of god belongs to children .wow…Let us pray for unity and love for all christians …that is the only way the world knowns we are following Jesus Christ.love… Judite

 

[wisdomseeker]

Again you have it somewhat backwards; isn’t the real question; does Jesus commune with you? Many claim to commune with Jesus, but few does He commune with.

your answer will come when you come to the understanding of what a Covenant is. Jesus made a Covenant with His people which is His Church. dont kiddy yourself by continuing with the fantasy that you can pick up the Bible and ignore the fact that the Covenant of God with His Church can never be broken because somebody picked up a Bible. i think that God knew exactly what people would do if they put their hands in this Book. that is why He put in place a Church to be the authority here on earth. a city on the hill. only a person with severe spiritual defect cannot see the Spiritual power and authority of the CC in this earth.

 

[Seeking12]

Let’s see. i go to the Church Jesus found. i obey the Church. i love our Mother the Virgen Mary. i believe the Body, Blood and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist. i call father the priests, Bishops, and the holy father. i hold them in great honor. i confess my sins to them. i bowl and kneel before the altar, Body and Blood of Christ. i hold the Saints in high honor. i help those in need when needed. i obey the Commandments of God although sometimes i fail. i believe in the Church Jesus found. i hear the Apostles and their successores in obedience to Christ. i ask the help of the Saints when i cannot pray. i receive the Sacraments instituted by Christ. i could go on and on…but i dont want to overwhelm you. how about you? Everyday, thanks be to God.

**Just as I thought, no mention of the Word.

Let me give you some words of wisdom to think about for your own sake.

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 "These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7 "You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8 "You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

“Will you not receive instruction by listening to My words?” declares the LORD.

"Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 “But the one who has heard and has not acted {accordingly,} is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Establish my footsteps in Your word, And do not let any iniquity have dominion over me.

So I will have an answer for him who reproaches me, For I trust in Your word.

Do you now believe in the importance that God places on His word and how important it is to know His word and to live His word? Christians are always at varying levels of understanding and growth, but growing comes from putting forth effort.**

 

[SteveGC]

I am a devout catholic but I get nervous about so many catholics claiming that we are the only church that holds the truth, The truth is Jesus He is the one who died for us not a church I know that Jesus founded the church… and what is the church ? is it not a body of believers that try to follow Jesus ?. who knows the hearts of our protestantes brothers and sisters., God is the judge who are we to say that we are the only ones that hold the truth…Jesus is for everyone who calls on His name …about the Bible it says in Timothy 3: 16 that the Bible is inspired by God that is where we take all our readings and prayers for the mass .this is a simple approach I know not a trace of theology but if Jesus said the kingdom of god belongs to children .wow…Let us pray for unity and love for all hristians …that is the only way the world knowns we are following Jesus Christ.love… Judite

Judite, welcome.

As Catholics, we must be attentive to the distinction our Church has relative to the non-Catholic churches. You are right, the church certainly is a body of believers, God’s united people. But the key is that we are united in the FULLNESS of Truth, and a validation of this unity is the existence of absolutely consistent teaching, no matter where in the nation, or in the world, you may find yourself. In addition, Christ’s Church carries with it His delegation of earthly authority, through the protection and guidance of the Spirit of God. And so, only ONE church measures up to this criteria. Others do contain some partial truths, but the reality is that only one is Christ’s fullness.

God Bless

 

[Seeking12]

your answer will come when you come to the understanding of what a Covenant is. Jesus made a Covenant with His people which is His Church. dont kiddy yourself by continuing with the fantasy that you can pick up the Bible and ignore the fact that the Covenant of God with His Church can never be broken because somebody picked up a Bible. i think that God knew exactly what people would do if they put their hands in this Book. that is why He put in place a Church to be the authority here on earth. a city on the hill. only a person with severe spiritual defect cannot see the Spiritual power and authority of the CC in this earth.

**You put your faith in an institution; that I don’t understand. You lack the basic understanding of Jesus church.

If you have a heart for God; realizing you have nothing to offer God because compared to Him you are dung, put your faith in Christ alone with a true heart of repentance and believe that God raised Him from the dead; you will be saved!**