1 Timothy 3:15

[SteveGC]

**You are going to tell me that if you could present the gospel to someone and they told you that “you and your god can go to hell; I don’t believe your so called god”; that you wouldn’t feel comfortable telling them the Kingdom is not open to them; you remain in your sin? Give me a break, anyone that can present the gospel has the same “key” and “authority” because it comes from the very word of God and by saying that to this fictitious person; you are merely restating what heaven has already said.

On Matthew 18:18; you need to look at the scene and who was there and whom the Lord spoke. You continue to prove the truth of Scripture.**

Feeling comfortable and even confident in telling them they remain in their sin is certainly within the bounds of any Christian. What does that have to do with authority? I would suggest that you need to take a hard look at what it meant to Christ to grant “authority” (the “keys”). We all are certainly CALLED to spread the Gospel, confidently and comfortably (we don’t need any sort of AUTHORITY or KEYS to do that). Authority is granted for teaching and shepherding. Only the 12 were granted authority to teach and shepherd Christ’s flock, Peter being the lead authority (which is also a response to your second paragraph above).

God Bless

 

[broski234]

Thanks for the light moment. Sometimes family members really need that when things get - ummm - tense.

Of course you know I could write something just as silly as this and point it at you.

In fact I will:

Silly Catholics; sticking with the Church Christ Founded; silly foolish people; don’t you know there is a bible?; The Bible is all you need - Never mind that it was the Catholics who wrote the NT and assembled the Bible; Never mind that “Bible Believers” - supposedly led by the “Holy Spirit” cannot agree on what it says; Catholics just don’t understand that salvation is in the Bible - so long as you agree with my interpretation of it. Silly - Silly Catholics.

My light moment

Peace
James

That’s funny! Good one James:thumbsup:

 

[Seeking12]

Thanks for the light moment. Sometimes family members really need that when things get - ummm - tense.

Of course you know I could write something just as silly as this and point it at you.

In fact I will:

Silly Catholics; sticking with the Church Christ Founded; silly foolish people; don’t you know there is a bible?; The Bible is all you need - Never mind that it was the Catholics who wrote the NT and assembled the Bible; Never mind that “Bible Believers” - supposedly led by the “Holy Spirit” cannot agree on what it says; Catholics just don’t understand that salvation is in the Bible - so long as you agree with my interpretation of it. Silly - Silly Catholics.

My light moment

Peace
James

**
James,

It is good to lighten up once in a while. Catholics did not write the NT; they didn’t exist at the time. When did the word Catholic, in reference to the Catholic Church, first appear? 1st, 2nd or perhaps 3rd century…maybe you could help me here.**

 

[JRKH]

Oh I must have misunderstood. I thought that when he sent them out he gave them the authority to loose and bind…but I can’t seem to locate that verse anymore so I can’t check it. Thanks for clearing it up:thumbsup:

Let’s see,
In Mt 10:1-5 Jesus sends out the twelve with authority to expel unclean spirits.
In Luke 10:1-20 describes the mission of the 72. These also had teh authority to heal the sick and expel unclean spirits.

However this “authority” was not to ordain, or to establish the Church. Certainly Jesus did not tell the seventy-two that he would build His church upon them, nor did he say anythign to them about binding and loosing.

Peace
James

 

[Seeking12]

Let’s see,
In Mt 10:1-5 Jesus sends out the twelve with authority to expel unclean spirits.
In Luke 10:1-20 describes the mission of the 72. These also had teh authority to heal the sick and expel unclean spirits.

However this “authority” was not to ordain, or to establish the Church. Certainly Jesus did not tell the seventy-two that he would build His church upon them, nor did he say anythign to them about binding and loosing.

Peace
James

**The Scripture say the church is built upon the prophets and Apostles; which is their proclamation of the Truth of God in Jesus.

Nothing more or less. That is why anyone who can present the gospel has the authority and power to loose and bind.**

 

[SteveGC]

**Silly Bible-only people; sticking with the word of God; silly foolish people; don’t you know there is the See of Rome; She is greater than the word of God; we will tell you it is the same, but us silly Bible-believers just are so stupid and blind; we will never know salvation from that silly Bible.

Just having a light moment.**

Your light moment is granted you, at my expense…albeit with an understanding that you completely misrepresent my comment, and arrogantly put words in my mouth - a tactic not presented against you.

Stick with the Word of God, Seeking. I do. The Catholic Church does. The Word is not a book, though. The Word is Christ, and is not contained exclusively in a book. The Church reveres and holds sacred the Bible she was entrusted to canonize more than you will ever know, Seeking. My intent with my post was to emphasize the fact that God’s written words in Scripture are not ALWAYS directly addressed to us, the faithful. We have to keep things in context, and recognize that there are different roles for different people in the context of Christianity. You cannot assume upon yourself the decrees and proclamations that Christ placed on EVERYONE He addresses in Scripture. To do so is to take Scripture out of context.

If you want to infer that I call you silly, stupid and blind, you go right ahead with that self-serving agenda. I merely defend misrepresentations of my faith, my friend.

 

[JRKH]

**
James,

It is good to lighten up once in a while. Catholics did not write the NT; they didn’t exist at the time. When did the word Catholic, in reference to the Catholic Church, first appear? 1st, 2nd or perhaps 3rd century…maybe you could help me here.**

Well others may be able to better answer in specifics but I believe I can offer some enlightenment.

The term Catholic is from the Greek and it means universal. Thus whe it was used in the early centuries is was applied to the “Universal” Christian Church, or The Church Catholic, or The One Holy Catholic (universal)and Apostolic Church.
I believe that the term began to be used more frequently at the time of the schism between the east and west at which time it would have been used to clarify which “Catholic” rite one was refering to. “Roman” Catholicism or “Orthodox” Catholicism. Finally, with the splintering after the reformation the term catholic was applied to the Church in Rome by the Western Protestants.
I hope that helps some - Like I said others may be able to provide a better explanation.

As to who wrote the NT, the fact is that there was one Church at the time. It was Apostolic and united and universal, that is catholic. Therefore it is obvious that those who wrote the NT works were members of “The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”.
The same Church which compiled, protected, defended, translated, distributed, and preached from the Holy Bible for 1000 years before Martin Luther and co came along.
Praise be to God and the Protection of the Holy Spirit.

Peace
James

 

[SteveGC]

**The Scripture say the church is built upon the prophets and Apostles; which is their proclamation of the Truth of God in Jesus.

Nothing more or less. That is why anyone who can present the gospel has the authority and power to loose and bind.**

I’m sorry…is this Ephesians 4 (cf) you are referring to? The same which says that SOME are given as apostles, SOME as prophets, SOME as teachers, etc. Is this not making MY point…that there are appointments and proclamations meant for some, and other appointments and proclamations meant for others?

Further, where in Scripture can you infer authority granted upon anyone who can preach the Gospel? Careful here, you must make sure you know what “authority” really means.

God Bless

 

[JRKH]

James, thanks for the correction concerning the previously established church in Antioch.

Your welcome.

However after seeing the flow of the entire messages; what is obvious is that these Jews were stirring up the people and blaspheming God and distorting what Paul had already preached. Since Jerusalem was the place where the Apostles and Jewish authorities were firmly established, so to speak, it is the place the people seeking answers wanted to verify and sort out the truth. It would be common for Jews to be accustomed to settling things at Jerusalem.

Which is exactly the point we have been trying to make to you. We go where the authority has been established. At first it was in Jerusalem as you say. Why? simply because that is where the Church was centered at the time. That is where the Church and Apostles were working from at that time. So that is where Paul went. To the Church Authority - The Magisterium (the teaching authority) - The Apostles - who were at Jerusalem.

This does not imply that this was the normal thing; probably why we have only this example. There are other examples where Paul is instructing the elders on how to sort their problems out; without appealing to Jerusalem. You must also look at the whole picture, the church is in it’s infancy and Jesus established these Godly Apostles to get the whole thing off the ground and running and as you can see they are feeling some growing pains.

This is no way establishes a Catholic authority.

Oh Please - - Seeking12 -

My head is swimming from all of this spinning around.

First you are a firm believer in the Bible as sole authority. You believe that everything we need to know about our salvation and how to go about preaching and teaching are found in the Bible. You are also a firm believer that the Bible does NOT point to the Catholic Church.
Yet here, we have a CLEAR AND UNEQUIVICAL example of the Authoritative Church in action and what do you say? “This does not imply that this was the normal thing; probably why we have only this example”.
Your ability to dance is truly astounding.

I’ll wager that if I were point out to you that John in his gospel clearly says that he hasn’t written down everything Jesus said and did and that is why we hold to the Church as Christ’s living representative, you would respond that everything that was necessary was recorded in the Bible. That we should look to the Bible to see what Christ said and see how the early Church functioned.

Now I won’t deny that Paul taught that local communities should try to resolve issues themselves. The Church still teaches this in many matters. However when it comes to matters of faith and morals, we are to hold to the universal Church’s teachings and where there is sin, or misunderstanding, we should get clarification up the “chain of command” as it were to the magisterium.

Thus it was that, when the local community was unable to resolve the issue, they went to Jerusalem to “Tell It To The Church”. They then abided by the Authoritative decision of The Church.

Weren’t they lucky that such an authoritavie body existed at the time to resolve these issues, or else the whole Christian movement would likely have disintigrated into a morass of conflicting interpretations and ideologies before the Apostles even died.
hhmmm - “…morass of conflicting interpretations and ideologies”. Sounds kind of like “Bible Only” protestantism doesn’t it?

Peace
James

 

[wisdomseeker]

**
James,

It is good to lighten up once in a while. Catholics did not write the NT; they didn’t exist at the time. When did the word Catholic, in reference to the Catholic Church, first appear? 1st, 2nd or perhaps 3rd century…maybe you could help me here.**

St Ignatius of Antioch. (106 AD)
" You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God’s commandment. Let no one do anything touching the Church, apart from the bishop. Let that celebration of the Eucharist be considered valid which is held under the bishop or anyone to whom he has committed it. Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not permitted without authorization from the bishop either to baptize or to hold an agape; but whatever he approves is also pleasing to God. Thus everything you do will be proof against danger and valid."

 

[wisdomseeker]

**
James,

It is good to lighten up once in a while. Catholics did not write the NT; they didn’t exist at the time. When did the word Catholic, in reference to the Catholic Church, first appear? 1st, 2nd or perhaps 3rd century…maybe you could help me here.**

“Thus it is that sinners, and all those who are aliens from the Catholic Church, heretics, and schismatics, since they are excluded from glorifying (God) with the saints, cannot properly even continue observers of the feast.”
Festal Letters VII, 335 A.D.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**
James,

It is good to lighten up once in a while. Catholics did not write the NT; they didn’t exist at the time. When did the word Catholic, in reference to the Catholic Church, first appear? 1st, 2nd or perhaps 3rd century…maybe you could help me here.**

"Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as Bishops, to rule the Church of GOD, which He has purchased with His own blood."
Acts 20:28

 

[wisdomseeker]

**
James,

It is good to lighten up once in a while. Catholics did not write the NT; they didn’t exist at the time. When did the word Catholic, in reference to the Catholic Church, first appear? 1st, 2nd or perhaps 3rd century…maybe you could help me here.**

Jn 17:22-23, “And the glory that thou hast given Me, I have given to them, that they might be one, even as We are One; I in them and Thou in Me; that they may be perfected in unity, and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and Thou hast loved them even as Thou hast loved Me.” ****

you can also read the Creed…

 

[wisdomseeker]

**
James,

It is good to lighten up once in a while. Catholics did not write the NT; they didn’t exist at the time. When did the word Catholic, in reference to the Catholic Church, first appear? 1st, 2nd or perhaps 3rd century…maybe you could help me here.**

Lactantius

“It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from there, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. . . . Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known that this is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance and which takes a health-promoting care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject” (Divine Institutes 4:30:11–13 [A.D. 307]).

 

[DavWan]

**
James,

It is good to lighten up once in a while. Catholics did not write the NT; they didn’t exist at the time. When did the word Catholic, in reference to the Catholic Church, first appear? 1st, 2nd or perhaps 3rd century…maybe you could help me here.**

It is known to have been used about AD 107. Ignatius of Antioch used it in the Letter to the Smyrnaeans Chapter 8 to distinguish the Church from those heresies that had broken away from the Church. The concept was older probably

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

 

[JRKH]

**The Scripture say the church is built upon the prophets and Apostles; which is their proclamation of the Truth of God in Jesus.

Nothing more or less. That is why anyone who can present the gospel has the authority and power to loose and bind.**

So - Do you believe that you personally have the authority to bind and loose me in such matters as say - -
Whether contraception or abortion are allowable incertain circumstances?
How about whether I should worship on Saturday or Sunday?
Whether I should accept a 66 book canon or a 72 book canon of Scripture?
Whether the Eucharist is really Christ’s Body and Blood or is just a symbol?

Since you are proclaiming the Gospel to me, you have the authority to “bind me”?

It appears to me that we are “Proclaiming the Gospel” to each other here on this thread. Yet we disagree on many points. Binding and loosing is just one.
So - Since we are proclaiming the Gospel to each other, who gets to “Bind and Loose” on whom?

Please clarify.

Peace
James

 

[tmac1956]

snip…
You lack understanding and are imposing your view on the texts instead of letting the Word speak for itself; this is why you had to use the Aramaic for the rock because you know if you use the Greek; then it is more difficult to defend your error. If you were to do a simple word search on stone and stones, then you could only conclude that we are the stones that are fitted together in construction of the church in which the cornerstone and foundation is Jesus Christ. No Peter could hold up this structure.

By the time of that writing, the Greek language had evolved to the point where there was no longer a semantic difference between those two words - ‘petros’ and ‘petra’. The Greek speakers of the day knew this. This fall-back position is historically untenable.

 

[Seeking12]

So - Do you believe that you personally have the authority to bind and loose me in such matters as say - -
Whether contraception or abortion are allowable incertain circumstances?
How about whether I should worship on Saturday or Sunday?
Whether I should accept a 66 book canon or a 72 book canon of Scripture?
Whether the Eucharist is really Christ’s Body and Blood or is just a symbol?

Since you are proclaiming the Gospel to me, you have the authority to “bind me”?

It appears to me that we are “Proclaiming the Gospel” to each other here on this thread. Yet we disagree on many points. Binding and loosing is just one.
So - Since we are proclaiming the Gospel to each other, who gets to “Bind and Loose” on whom?

Please clarify.

Peace
James

**Those are all easy to answer because God has said in His word.
Yes, I have the authority to loose and/or bind.

Abortion is never allowed; it is murder regardless of the circumstance.

Contraception may or may not be depending if you are destroying a fetus or preventing one in the first place. God has remained silent on this, which I know you do not agree because of what your denomination teaches.

66 books; which is further evidence that the Bible I have did not come from the Catholic Church, but rather the Holy Spirit guiding men.

It is just a symbol of His death burial resurrection, see John 6:63 for reference for the explanation of the figurative language Jesus used in which your denomination likes to site for the literal eating; He clarified beyond any doubt except in some minds of those who realize by denying this it would not be any benefit to their religious faith.

To answer you last question; we have two completely different gospels. If you remain in your unbelief; you will die in your sin.**

 

[Seeking12]

By the time of that writing, the Greek language had evolved to the point where there was no longer a semantic difference between those two words - ‘petros’ and ‘petra’. The Greek speakers of the day knew this. This fall-back position is historically untenable.

Do you think this was perhaps part of God’s plan? If not why?

 

[broski234]

**
Yes, I have the authority to loose and/or bind.
Contraception may or may not be depending if you are destroying a fetus or preventing one in the first place. God has remained silent on this, which I know you do not agree because of what your denomination teaches.

It is just a symbol of His death burial resurrection, see John 6:63 for reference for the explanation of the figurative language Jesus used in which your denomination likes to site for the literal eating;

**
First, you have no authority! If you say the bible is your authority, then the bible ought to have your name written in it that says Seeking 12 has the authority to bind and loose. I hate to burst your bubble, but you won’t find it there.

Second, contraception is always wrong. This isn’t the thread for this but just so you know, the Catholic Church has always taught that it is intrinsicly evil.

Third, if Jesus clarified himself in v. 63 of John, if it was so clear he was speaking symbolically, then why did His disciples leave after he supposedly clarified Himself in v.63? You continue to amaze me. Again, with all due respect, your position is not well thought out. And there is more that I would like to address with you but do not have the time right now.

By the way, are you formerly known on this forum as “NonCatholic”?