1 Timothy 3:15

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People are not converted by people are they; or do you not know what the Scripture says?**
no? let s see: St Paul, St Peter, Jesus Himself. humnnn…

were these humans who spoke the Word or not? i think many people believed them. just like me. i believe them.

i dont know about you.

**
“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D…**
 
So when we “Tell it to the Church”, How many “individuals” do we need to assemble to meet this requirement of Jesus?

Yes the Church is made up of individuals just as a country is made up of individuals. That does not mean there is no advantage to a government.

Peace
James
How many people attend your church on a given Sunday? It is not that complicated; unless one doesn’t believe and/or one is deceived and/or one doesn’t understand.
 
How many people attend your church on a given Sunday? It is not that complicated; unless one doesn’t believe and/or one is deceived and/or one doesn’t understand.
ok then. now we are taking you to the CC to settle this dispute.

are you coming or not?.

"I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church."
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D…
 
How many people attend your church on a given Sunday? It is not that complicated; unless one doesn’t believe and/or one is deceived and/or one doesn’t understand.
Yes, but which Church? He doesn’t say “churches” here! He says “the church”, doesn’t He? The following are verses supporting the One, Visible Church, compliments of ScriptureCatholic.com

**Matt. 5:14 **- Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

**Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 **- Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build my ‘Church’ (not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

**Matt. 16:19; 18:18 **- Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because “binding and loosing” are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus’ oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus’ prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean “invisible” unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.

Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.

Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.
**
Phil. 2:2** - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?
 
You still didn’t answer my question. Why are you here? Will you tell me? Are you seeking truth? What brings you here? I would like to know your motivation for being here. I know we Catholics can defend our Faith well and I enjoy seeing other people do just that, but I always wonder why people visit this site. Why are you here?
In His service,
Stann
 
How many people attend your church on a given Sunday?
Our Parish is approximately 1200 families.
OK let us pursue this then.
We have a disagreement over doctrine/interpretation.
Step one:
I talk to my brother - He remains unconvinced
Step two:
I bring in four others who agree with me - He remains unconvinced.
Step Three:
We assemble ALL 2000 or so adults and each side presents their case.

What do we do from here? Do we vote? Do pray for guidance and continue debate until we ALL agree?
What happens if (as is likely) a percentage agree with each side. (This happened at the Council of Jerusalem)
Say 1200 firmly agree with me but the other 700 just as firmly agree my brother.
What is the resolution? How would it be handled in your Church community?
It is not that complicated; unless one doesn’t believe and/or one is deceived and/or one doesn’t understand.
I agree that it is not that complicated. Especially if you follow what Christ established and taught. Especially if you look at how the Church functioned in Acts.
You remain convinced that the Church at Antioch should have resolved the whole circumcision/dietary issue by bringing it before their local community. They should NOT have sent Paul to Jerusalem to place teh disagreement before the Apostles. The proof against your interpretation is there in the Bible itself yet you refuse to see it.

We’ll keep explaining it. In God’s good time you will understand. (I hope)

Peace
James
 
Yes, but which Church? He doesn’t say “churches” here! He says “the church”, doesn’t He? The following are verses supporting the One, Visible Church, compliments of ScriptureCatholic.com

**Matt. 5:14 **- Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

**Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 **- Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build my ‘Church’ (not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

**Matt. 16:19; 18:18 **- Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because “binding and loosing” are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus’ oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus’ prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean “invisible” unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.

Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.

Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.
**
Phil. 2:2** - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?
You got to quit thinking of the church as a single institution.
Here is a little link for you to look at to help your understanding.
searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=churches&section=2&translation=kjv&oq=joh%252016%3A26&new=1&sr=1&nb=joh&ng=16&ncc=16
 
Prove it! Where does one Early Church Father support your idea of this invisible church? Same your time, they don’t support you on this, brother. Look at Matt 18:17. How can we take it to an invisible church? How many individuals make up this church Jesus talks about? It is clear in scripture that Jesus established an authoritative church!
**You said it was invisible; I didn’t. Are you one of those people that puts words into people mouths to create something that isn’t there? It is invisible only in this sense; you cannot see the elect; can you. **
 
no? let s see: St Paul, St Peter, Jesus Himself. humnnn…

were these humans who spoke the Word or not? i think many people believed them. just like me. i believe them.

i dont know about you.

**
“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D…**
Was it the messenger or the message? You do not appear to know or understand the gospel.
 
Our Parish is approximately 1200 families.
OK let us pursue this then.
We have a disagreement over doctrine/interpretation.
Step one:
I talk to my brother - He remains unconvinced
Step two:
I bring in four others who agree with me - He remains unconvinced.
Step Three:
We assemble ALL 2000 or so adults and each side presents their case.

What do we do from here? Do we vote? Do pray for guidance and continue debate until we ALL agree?
What happens if (as is likely) a percentage agree with each side. (This happened at the Council of Jerusalem)
Say 1200 firmly agree with me but the other 700 just as firmly agree my brother.
What is the resolution? How would it be handled in your Church community?

I agree that it is not that complicated. Especially if you follow what Christ established and taught. Especially if you look at how the Church functioned in Acts.
You remain convinced that the Church at Antioch should have resolved the whole circumcision/dietary issue by bringing it before their local community. They should NOT have sent Paul to Jerusalem to place teh disagreement before the Apostles. The proof against your interpretation is there in the Bible itself yet you refuse to see it.

We’ll keep explaining it. In God’s good time you will understand. (I hope)

Peace
James
**How would you do it in your church? In the example you gave; the majority would prevail, but I don’t think there would be a split as you described because anything that makes it before the whole church is going to be a serious issue like infidelity for example.

Paul gave an example; I can’t remember the verse right now, but told the church to toss someone out for infidelity if they would not repent, but also to give them a chance to be redeemed after they have repented.**
 
You still didn’t answer my question. Why are you here? Will you tell me? Are you seeking truth? What brings you here? I would like to know your motivation for being here. I know we Catholics can defend our Faith well and I enjoy seeing other people do just that, but I always wonder why people visit this site. Why are you here?
In His service,
Stann
Because I want to be here; it strengthen my faith, increases my prayer, helps my study and helps my ministry.
 
Seeking, humor me for a sec…

Based on whatever understanding you have gained of the Catholic faith, could you please define for us our definition of “church”? Not your definition…rather, what you believe is OUR definition…

Thanks…
 
**How would you do it in your church? In the example you gave; the majority would prevail, but I don’t think there would be a split as you described because anything that makes it before the whole church is going to be a serious issue like infidelity for example.

Paul gave an example; I can’t remember the verse right now, but told the church to toss someone out for infidelity if they would not repent, but also to give them a chance to be redeemed after they have repented.**
So you avoid answering my question about how it would be handled in your church by asking how it would be handled in mine. Plus you completely ignore the 600 pound gorilla sitting on your argument. The fact that the Church in Antioch appealed, not to their own number, but to the Church in Jerusalem - To the Magisterium.
Well in my church, The Catholic Church, we look to the Catachism and the Magisterium to resolve such issues just as Paul went to Jerusalem with the issues raised in Antioch. Thus we are following the Biblical model of telling it to the Church while you conveniently ignore this very clear example of the early and catholic Church in action.

Peace
James
 
Seeking, humor me for a sec…

Based on whatever understanding you have gained of the Catholic faith, could you please define for us our definition of “church”? Not your definition…rather, what you believe is OUR definition…

Thanks…
This is a very good question. I will be looking forward to his answer.

Peace
James
 
Because I want to be here; it strengthen my faith, increases my prayer, helps my study and helps my ministry.
Thank you for this answer.
You say you are in ministry. May I ask if you are ordained and if so through which Bible college or seminary?
It might help us understand each other better.
Thanks.

Peace
James
 
Our Parish is approximately 1200 families.
OK let us pursue this then.
We have a disagreement over doctrine/interpretation.
Step one:
I talk to my brother - He remains unconvinced
Step two:
I bring in four others who agree with me - He remains unconvinced.
Step Three:
We assemble ALL 2000 or so adults and each side presents their case.

What do we do from here? Do we vote? Do pray for guidance and continue debate until we ALL agree?
What happens if (as is likely) a percentage agree with each side. (This happened at the Council of Jerusalem)
Say 1200 firmly agree with me but the other 700 just as firmly agree my brother.
What is the resolution? How would it be handled in your Church community?
How this is handled in a protestant church is the church will split. 1200 will go one way and establish a church of what they believe and the 700 will go down the road a bit and start their own church. I grew up seeing this happen over and over and over. The last church i saw this happen in split because the pastor had an affair and wanted to leave his wife to marry the other woman. So half of the church went with him because they thought he was a really nice guy. Some of the others split up into about 10 other already established different protestant churches, and a small handful of people stayed at the original facility to carry on. 😦

I saw this over and over when I was growing up in the Landmark Missionary Baptist Church. I used to always think, even as a child, “Who’s in charge here??? Somone NEEDS to be in charge!!” And I’d read my KJV that so clearly spelled out the structure of the church of bishop, pastor, deacon, and wonder why we didn’t have a structure that would resolve these issues. Thank goodness I’m in a Church that has a structure and can make decisions (maybe that has helped it last through 2000 years of troubled world history). If I ever write a book about my protestant days it will be entitled “Who’s in Charge Here?”

Seeker, I think you are seeking truth and a way to the One True Faith. You are in my prayers.
 
So you avoid answering my question about how it would be handled in your church by asking how it would be handled in mine. Plus you completely ignore the 600 pound gorilla sitting on your argument. The fact that the Church in Antioch appealed, not to their own number, but to the Church in Jerusalem - To the Magisterium.
Well in my church, The Catholic Church, we look to the Catachism and the Magisterium to resolve such issues just as Paul went to Jerusalem with the issues raised in Antioch. Thus we are following the Biblical model of telling it to the Church while you conveniently ignore this very clear example of the early and catholic Church in action.

Peace
James
**You do not have the context of the message correct. There was no church established in Antioch at the time. Some Jewish converts (see verse 1) were teaching Jesus plus the works of the law; similar errors Catholics teach. It is also similar to what Paul rebuked Peter for.

Reread my previous post; I said under the scenario you gave the majority would rule. We have a very small church and if someone were in the state of sin (say infildelity), the whole church would know already and they would have many people holding them accountable.**
 
How this is handled in a protestant church is the church will split. 1200 will go one way and establish a church of what they believe and the 700 will go down the road a bit and start their own church. I grew up seeing this happen over and over and over. The last church i saw this happen in split because the pastor had an affair and wanted to leave his wife to marry the other woman. So half of the church went with him because they thought he was a really nice guy. Some of the others split up into about 10 other already established different protestant churches, and a small handful of people stayed at the original facility to carry on. 😦

I saw this over and over when I was growing up in the Landmark Missionary Baptist Church. I used to always think, even as a child, “Who’s in charge here??? Somone NEEDS to be in charge!!” And I’d read my KJV that so clearly spelled out the structure of the church of bishop, pastor, deacon, and wonder why we didn’t have a structure that would resolve these issues. Thank goodness I’m in a Church that has a structure and can make decisions (maybe that has helped it last through 2000 years of troubled world history). If I ever write a book about my protestant days it will be entitled “Who’s in Charge Here?”

Seeker, I think you are seeking truth and a way to the One True Faith. You are in my prayers.
**You do know that Pastor and Bishop are the same office? There are only two offices in biblical record; deacon and pastor/bishop. The primary difference in qualification is the pastor/bishop must have the ability to teach on top of the other qualifications. The idea of the office is to put men that are mature in their faith and are not tossed around by every wind of doctrine, but unfortunately we see too many weak “Christians” in positions they do not qualify for.

The same is true within the Catholic Church as in other churches; I would dare say it is worse in the Catholic system.

There is a large church in our area that has had problems because of the politics inside the church. **
 
Thank you for this answer.
You say you are in ministry. May I ask if you are ordained and if so through which Bible college or seminary?
It might help us understand each other better.
Thanks.

Peace
James
All God’s people are in ministry; my ministry that I do on a part time basis is I pass out tracts and CD’s of the word of God to my local area. I try to gear the specific message to the needs of the neighbors, which includes people in my town, my church, and whomever God puts in my path. Some of the messages are from Jonathan Edwards, JC Ryle, Charles Spurgeon and John Bunyan. I copy, with permission, burn, label and distribute.
 
This is a very good question. I will be looking forward to his answer.

Peace
James
The Holy See of Rome, One Faith, One Church and One God, built on Peter and guided by the Holy Spirit. I can’t go on.
 
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