10 Commandments-Graven images

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The poster above me is claiming that we worship statues. Since we have already explained that we do not worship statues or practice idolatry, what is the reason for reposting this claim?

From the CA library:

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp

The Religious Uses of Images

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to “make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these “graven” images, they would be practicing the “idolatry” of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned**. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named “Nehushtan”), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

What About Bowing?

Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, “You shall not bow down to them.” Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.
 
(cont’d)

Hiding the Second Commandment?

Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church “hides” the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as “You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.” (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3) and “You shall not make for yourself a graven image” (Ex. 20:4). **The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command. **

Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. **For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, “Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy,” though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11). **

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as “You shall have no other gods before me.” **This is no attempt to “hide” the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier. **

**The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. **The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities” (CCC 2066).
 
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mesher:
so what are those statues and paintings of saints doing in the church? why do we kneel and pray infront of them?
QUestion is do you really believe that we worship them as gods?

If I believed something was a God and I worshiped it, would I then turn around and deny that this is a God?

How about you! would you deny God was God if someone accused you of worshipping God?
 
Right as gods is the key to graven images.

If you think about it, the ten suggestions, just kidding are engraven images.
 
As with many protestants of Mesher’s Ilk they do not listen when we explain the truth and simple talk/write over everything. I believe they remain blind to what we say so they can continue to speak the untruth and not feel quilty about it. The only thing that will open their hearts to the truth is the Holy Spirit. We must constantly pray that this will happen.

Peace! 👍
 
Daniel Marsh:
Right as gods is the key to graven images.

If you think about it, the ten suggestions, just kidding are engraven images.
😃 😃 😃 😃
 
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prodigal-sun:
QUestion is do you really believe that we worship them as gods?

If I believed something was a God and I worshiped it, would I then turn around and deny that this is a God?

How about you! would you deny God was God if someone accused you of worshipping God?
John 4:23-24
23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."


if you believed the a piece of carved wood is God aren’t you practicing idolatry? read the bible, and it says everything about graven images… “they have eyes that can’ hear, nose that can’t breath” and you call yourself a christian

im worshipping God in spirit as He instructed us… see my previous post… i’m only quoting th bible and it is not me who is blind, the bible says it all… it is the word of god, not explanations of men.

i’ll pray for you also brother…
FYI… i’m, not a protestant. i’m a christian. christ is my savior.
 
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mesher:
if you believed the a piece of carved wood is God aren’t you practicing idolatry? read the bible, and it says everything about graven images… “they have eyes that can’ hear, nose that can’t breath” and you call yourself a christian
if you believed the a piece of carved wood is God aren’t you practicing idolatry?

Thats the point they are making.
Nobody believes the piece of carved wood is God - except you.

Catholic religous images remind people of their faith - of Biblical events and people, as the Bible reminds you of Biblical events.
As the protestant iconoclasts destroyed every image that reminded them of God, His Apostles, His mother and His friends.
They even destroyed the crucifix, - they can read about the crucifixion in the Bible and try to see it in their minds eye, but they must not have a three-dimensional crucifix to help them see it, and picture the event.
 
I Leatherman:
if you believed the a piece of carved wood is God aren’t you practicing idolatry?

Thats the point they are making.
Nobody believes the piece of carved wood is God - except you.

Catholic religous images remind people of their faith - of Biblical events and people, as the Bible reminds you of Biblical events.
As the protestant iconoclasts destroyed every image that reminded them of God, His Apostles, His mother and His friends.
They even destroyed the crucifix, - they can read about the crucifixion in the Bible and try to see it in their minds eye, but they must not have a three-dimensional crucifix to help them see it, and picture the event.
will you comment on the text that i have mention above on how we should worship God, take note that it is from the BIBLE. Does Jesus teach us to make images of him? How sure are you that those images of Jesus is the correct picture of him? didn’t God said this verse:

Deut 5:8-10
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

is this not a commandment from the apostles:

John 4:23-24
23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

i would appreciate it if you mentioned verses from the bible to support your stand.

FYI. i was raised a devout catholic.
 
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mesher:
will you comment on the text that i have mention above on how we should worship God, take note that it is from the BIBLE. Does Jesus teach us to make images of him? How sure are you that those images of Jesus is the correct picture of him? didn’t God said this verse:

Deut 5:8-10
"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

is this not a commandment from the apostles:

John 4:23-24
23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

i would appreciate it if you mentioned verses from the bible to support your stand.

FYI. i was raised a devout catholic.
What happens Mesher, when you read the Bible.
Do you imagine the scenes in your mind, - The Agony in the Garden, The Crucifixion, - Tell me what they looked like Mesher.
If you have trouble imagining those scenes have a look at the Stations of the Cross.
There is no difference whether you imagine those scenes in your own mind or view images of them.
Those images, whether real, or imagined in your mind, are simply the Bible in visual form.
 
I Leatherman:
What happens Mesher, when you read the Bible.
Do you imagine the scenes in your mind, - The Agony in the Garden, The Crucifixion, - Tell me what they looked like Mesher.
If you have trouble imagining those scenes have a look at the Stations of the Cross.
There is no difference whether you imagine those scenes in your own mind or view images of them.
Those images, whether real, or imagined in your mind, are simply the Bible in visual form./QUOT

is the bible not sufficient in describing those scenes? How accurate do you think the images are? I suppose the topic was about images of saints, Jesus and mary. If these images are not worshiped why are they paraded on streets, saints celebrated with a feast? Pray to them for personal intentions and novena?

so is it okay to disobey God just to fulfill our human needs? are you saying it is not a sin to have images of anything in heaven and erase from the Bible Deut 5:8-10 to have no contradiction? if the apostles or the early christians thought that is is important to have an image of christ for worship, do you think they would not have a painting of him to remind the future generations that this is how Jesus looks like. they don’t see the need to have an image of christ for our generations for they knew that what the bible’s description of Christ is sufficient.
 
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mesher:
I Leatherman:
What happens Mesher, when you read the Bible.
Do you imagine the scenes in your mind, - The Agony in the Garden, The Crucifixion, - Tell me what they looked like Mesher.
If you have trouble imagining those scenes have a look at the Stations of the Cross.
There is no difference whether you imagine those scenes in your own mind or view images of them.
Those images, whether real, or imagined in your mind, are simply the Bible in visual form.[/QUOT

is the bible not sufficient in describing those scenes? How accurate do you think the images are? I suppose the topic was about images of saints, Jesus and mary. If these images are not worshiped why are they paraded on streets, saints celebrated with a feast? Pray to them for personal intentions and novena?

so is it okay to disobey God just to fulfill our human needs? are you saying it is not a sin to have images of anything in heaven and erase from the Bible Deut 5:8-10 to have no contradiction? if the apostles or the early christians thought that is is important to have an image of christ for worship, do you think they would not have a painting of him to remind the future generations that this is how Jesus looks like. they don’t see the need to have an image of christ for our generations for they knew that what the bible’s description of Christ is sufficient.
The early Christians who heard Mass in the Catacombs decorated the walls of the Churchs with paintings, one of which was a portrait of Christ as a young man, and because of the threat to the early Christians lives if they were discovered worshiping anyone other than the Roman god / Emperor, Christ was often symbolically portrayed as a fish and as bread.

"are you saying it is not a sin to have images of anything in heaven "-Mesher
Yes.
God in Heaven became man on earth.
The greatest image of God ever made was Jesus Christ.
Whoever saw Him, He said to the crowds, saw their Father in Heaven.
God is the supreme artist.
And His image and Person walked the land for all to see.
You wish to hide Him away?

“is the bible not sufficient in describing those scenes?” -Mesher
When you read those scenes, Mesher, your mind builds an image of what is written, automatically.
Seeing the Bible visually is no crime.

“why are they paraded on streets, saints celebrated with a feast? Pray to them for personal intentions and novena?” -Mesher
Because those people are your friends - more importantly they are your Fathers friends, He hears them and they listen to Him.
The same as you do.
[/quote]
 
in your reply you said:

"are you saying it is not a sin to have images of anything in heaven "-Mesher
Yes.
God in Heaven became man on earth.
The greatest image of God ever made was Jesus Christ.
Whoever saw Him, He said to the crowds, saw their Father in Heaven.
God is the supreme artist.
And His image and Person walked the land for all to see.
You wish to hide Him away?


so in your religion it is okay to disobey God :confused: why wouldn’t you use scriptures from the bible to justify your stand? Yes, Jesus was the image of God the father but He forbades us to make images/pictures of him as the verse in Deuteronomy says. Even the apostle of Jesus said that the true worshipers of the father worship in truth and in spirit. spirit is invincible, no form…

when i say image, it means a painting or statues. the issue here is worshiping images. is it important to see then believe than to believe even without seeing?

you also said:
“why are they paraded on streets, saints celebrated with a feast? Pray to them for personal intentions and novena?” -Mesher
Because those people are your friends - more importantly they are your Fathers friends, He hears them and they listen to Him.
The same as you do.


some of them are my friends and even relatives, they are catholics but i’m not one of them i don’t worship idols, i pray directly to God and through Jesus as how Jesus instructed us to do.
 
"when i say image, it means a painting or statues. the issue here is worshiping images. is it important to see then believe than to believe even without seeing? " - Mesher

Maybe you dont understand english.

No Catholic Worships Statues Or Paintings.

This idea belongs to you - please keep it!

God became man for all to see. Do you think it was a sin for Biblical persons to look at Christ.

For Example:

A Crucifix image
is the equivalent of
reading the Crucifixion account,
or of actually being there at the time of the Crucifixion,
or of placing yourself there imaginatively, at some future time.

It is the event or person who is recalled through a visual format.
The same as you recall an event or person through visually looking at the written word.
Or if you were blind, you would recall the event or person through an aural format.

As the Crucifixion was a real event it can be presented to your mind for contemplation in image form, in written form, or in your imagination from memory, or in aural form.
 
I Leatherman said:
"when i say image, it means a painting or statues. the issue here is worshiping images. is it important to see then believe than to believe even without seeing? " - Mesher

Maybe you dont understand english.

No Catholic Worships Statues Or Paintings.

This idea belongs to you - please keep it!

God became man for all to see. Do you think it was a sin for Biblical persons to look at Christ.

For Example:

A Crucifix image
is the equivalent of
reading the Crucifixion account,
or of actually being there at the time of the Crucifixion,
or of placing yourself there imaginatively, at some future time.

It is the event or person who is recalled through a visual format.
The same as you recall an event or person through visually looking at the written word.
Or if you were blind, you would recall the event or person through an aural format.

As the Crucifixion was a real event it can be presented to your mind for contemplation in image form, in written form, or in your imagination from memory, or in aural form.

I just have a quick question. Then why is Mary in alot of your prayers if you are not praying to her? Hail Mary full of grace, and so on?
 
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SDAgirl:
I just have a quick question. Then why is Mary in alot of your prayers if you are not praying to her? Hail Mary full of grace, and so on?
Hi,
Those are the words the Angel used to greet Mary, you say those words also everytime you read them in Scripture.
Catholics tag on, at the end of the Hail Mary, ‘…Pray for us…’.
The same as you ask your friends to pray for you, we ask our friends and His friends and Jesus’s Mother to pray for us.
The Hail Mary, is, if you think about it, really a prayer to God.
You pray to God and you ask His friends to pray to God also, for you.
 
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SDAgirl:
I just have a quick question. Then why is Mary in alot of your prayers if you are not praying to her? Hail Mary full of grace, and so on?
To add what has already been said, it is part of our beliefs, a belief the Early Church also held, that we are one body. Because we are one body through Christ, we have a special “communion” with all the saints. Because of this the Church Militant (those on earth), can ask for the prayers of the Church Triumphant (those in heaven) because God finds it pleasing for us to pray for one another and He allows that saints in heaven to hear us ask those in heaven to add their prayers to ours.

God Bless,
Maria
 
I Leatherman:
For Example:

A Crucifix image
is the equivalent of
reading the Crucifixion account,
or of actually being there at the time of the Crucifixion,
or of placing yourself there imaginatively, at some future time.
is this biblical? can you site some verses from the Word od God to support this statement? if not then this is an invention or idea of men.
 
I Leatherman:
Hi,
Those are the words the Angel used to greet Mary, you say those words also everytime you read them in Scripture.
Catholics tag on, at the end of the Hail Mary, ‘…Pray for us…’.
The same as you ask your friends to pray for you, we ask our friends and His friends and Jesus’s Mother to pray for us.
The Hail Mary, is, if you think about it, really a prayer to God.
You pray to God and you ask His friends to pray to God also, for you.
what about " holy mary, mother of god. pray for us sinners now and the end of world."?

this is not in the bible? did not Jesus teach us how to pray? did the apostles teach us to ask dead person to pray for us, including saints? aren’t they also waiting for the final judgement? did not God warn us not to worship/pray the creation but the creator?
 
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MariaG:
To add what has already been said, it is part of our beliefs, a belief the Early Church also held, that we are one body. Because we are one body through Christ, we have a special “communion” with all the saints. Because of this the Church Militant (those on earth), can ask for the prayers of the Church Triumphant (those in heaven) because God finds it pleasing for us to pray for one another and He allows that saints in heaven to hear us ask those in heaven to add their prayers to ours.

God Bless,
Maria
did God say that we pray for the dead or the dead to pray for us? or, was it the livivng to pray for the living?
 
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