10 Commandments, graven images

  • Thread starter Thread starter Saint_Michael
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Frankly, i don’t think they care. The valentines day is not much regarded at all, by everyone… The last years there has been an increase, but that’s mainly from the merchants who wants to sell stuff to make money, so it is more like a commercial thing, and not religious…

I thought it was only americans who celebrated valentines day before. 🙂

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
It goes back to ancient times. Check out this link from Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentine%27s_Day
 
Carl - what is your opinion of Ellen White? Do you believe the things that she wrote? Do you think she is a prophet? What is your take on the plagarism issue? Is this a controversial subject in your church?

My husband is SDA and he says he can no longer believe that she is a prophet. That is why I ask you for your take.
 
It takes a while to read all the posts to this thread in order to reply with something that has not been said.
My understanding of the graven images passage has to do with Yahweh revealing Himself to the Chosen People. The people following the times of Adam and Eve knew of a Monotheistic God. It was only when Moses received the name of God “I am who AM” that the name of God was revealed, but they still did not know what God looked like. Moses could only see God in passing in a cloud. Other religions had their images of which many were animals. God told Moses not to carve images because it was not time yet to reveal his image. The cherubs on the Ark are not representations of God, but angels.
Hope this helps clear things up.
mdcpensive1 aka Mike
 
Carl - what is your opinion of Ellen White? Do you believe the things that she wrote? Do you think she is a prophet? What is your take on the plagarism issue? Is this a controversial subject in your church?

My husband is SDA and he says he can no longer believe that she is a prophet. That is why I ask you for your take.
I believe what she wrote, yes, and i believe that she is a prophet. But i also believe that she, as the rest of us, is also human, and was following the light that was given her. It takes a bit of work for God to make us perfect, and that is probably why we are still here, because it isn’t allways so easy to get us to coorporate. But i have no problems in saying that i think she was a very bright lady, who lead a life worthy of a prophet, and that i believe her writings.

Regarding the plagarism issue, i believe that this book should explain a great deal. “Was Ellen White a Fraud?” by Jack Provonsha

I can mail it to you if you want.
or you can download it here, i think… :
maranathamedia.com.au/start/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=1367

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

edit:
I also believe that anyone that follows the light God gives, will eventually end up in heaven, with God.
 
CET, I have another question. It came to me this morning while listening to the Radio.

You say you observere the Sabbath strictly?

You say you would not do anything that would contribute to someone else breaking the sabbath by watching Pro Sports on TV, going out to eat, etc.

What do you do concerning Utilities?

People have to work on Saturday to insure you have Water, Gas, and Electricity.

Do you turn off all things that utilize electricity including the refrigerator?

Do you go the whole day without turning on a water faucet? Do you go the whole day without flushing the toilet?

I am just wondering how an SDA justifies using these amenities on Saturday.

Good Day and Go live the Gospel.
 
The baptisms that the pagans did was not total submergion (was that the right word?).
Submersion is the word you were trying to use; immersion is the more common word to use.
The baptism that seven days adventists have is being totally submerged, as a symbol of being buried with Christ, and rising up again to a new life in Christ. This is the way the apostles did it,
Upon what evidence do you base that assertion?
and Jesus approved of this method.
When?
The sprinkling of water on the head is the pagan version, witch also you do, i presume…
Only when immersion isn’t available, or when it’s an infant and immersion might bring up possible health concerns (and even then, it’s triple-pouring, not sprinkling). It’s worth noting that Eastern Catholic Churches traditionally practice baptism by immersion, even of infants. One of the reasons that the Bible doesn’t give a clear indication that immersion is always and everywhere required is because it simply isn’t, and it’s never been the practice of the Church to require it.

Jeremy
 
CET, I have another question. It came to me this morning while listening to the Radio.
You say you observere the Sabbath strictly?
No, you say I do. Not me… I say i keep the sabbath holy by not doing any work that day. And also i wouldn’t deliberatly keep people in work by my actions.
You say you would not do anything that would contribute to someone else breaking the sabbath by watching Pro Sports on TV, going out to eat, etc.
I try to, yes.
What do you do concerning Utilities?
People have to work on Saturday to insure you have Water, Gas, and Electricity.
I don’t use Gas, the water i have in my house is from a well, that belongs to the farm i live on, and the pump is unmanned. The electricety though is from the public net. Witch is allways on anyways… It wouldn’t cause the powercompany any reduction in work on the sabbath, no matter what i did. I don’t neccesarily need the electricety on the sabbath, but it is convinient that it is there. But if the power failed on the sabbath, i wouldn’t bother calling the powercompany to fix it for me… Then the power could be gone 'till the sabbath was over.
Do you turn off all things that utilize electricity including the refrigerator?
Nop, i don’t
Do you go the whole day without turning on a water faucet? Do you go the whole day without flushing the toilet?
Nop, i still turn on the water… and i would do it even though i was on the public waterpipe.
I am just wondering how an SDA justifies using these amenities on Saturday.
Some things are a neccesity, and some are not, it’s just when like the apostles were accused of working when they ate from the cornfield. They where hungry… And of course it is neccesary to eat. just like it is neccesary for us to drink water and eat. And it is very nice not to freeze as well… But then again, i have a fireplace, so heat is not a problem either…
Good Day and Go live the Gospel.
I try to, as best as i know how.

But as i told you up here somewhere, i would not deliberatly keep somone in work to do either this or that for me if i could help it.

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
 
Submersion is the word you were trying to use; immersion is the more common word to use.
hehe… thanks… english can be difficult sometimes. 🙂
Upon what evidence do you base that assertion?
“For when you were baptized, you were buried with Christ, and in baptism you were also raised with Christ.” Colossians 2:12
“At that time Jesus came from Nazareth and was baptized by John in the river.” Mark 1:9
Only when immersion isn’t available, or when it’s an infant and immersion might bring up possible health concerns (and even then, it’s triple-pouring, not sprinkling). It’s worth noting that Eastern Catholic Churches traditionally practice baptism by immersion, even of infants. One of the reasons that the Bible doesn’t give a clear indication that immersion is always and everywhere required is because it simply isn’t, and it’s never been the practice of the Church to require it.
When isn’t immersion avaiable? It all depends on how the church accomodates for it. If they, for instance, had made a basin for it in church, it wouldn’t be a problem at all… And infant baptism is not biblical, it is supposed to be a conscious pact with God, and infants are not able to make this pact on behalf of itself, so someone is making it for them… This is not the biblical way of doing it… Remember how it was for the etheopian in the bible;

Acts 8:36-38
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

And that it is a lie that it has never been a requirement is a truth with modifications. Infant baptism comes from paganism, witch is provable. An adult baptism is biblical practice, and you can see this being practised over and over again. And even Jesus Christ made himself an example for us, by getting baptized himself. There was no other reason for him to get baptised, other than being an example… the proof is here:

“For when you were baptized, you were buried with Christ, and in baptism you were also raised with Christ.” Colossians 2:12

It is a symbolical act to show that we are buried with Christ, and raised with Christ. It was not neccesary to do this for him, he just wanted to show us what we were to do.

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
 
Carl,
When you are using the word “witch” I think what you really are trying to say is “which.” The word “witch” is a noun that stands for the ladies who cast spells and ride on broomsticks. Every time I read that word before I thought you were using it as a jab at Catholics; I had thought of saying something uncharitable about it before, but now that I understand that English is not your first language I’m glad I didn’t… :o
 
Carl,
When you are using the word “witch” I think what you really are trying to say is “which.” The word “witch” is a noun that stands for the ladies who cast spells and ride on broomsticks. Every time I read that word before I thought you were using it as a jab at Catholics; I had thought of saying something uncharitable about it before, but now that I understand that English is not your first language I’m glad I didn’t… :o
Hehe… ups… that was a bad mistake… I really hope you don’t think i dislike catholics… The catholics are not my problem, the problem is in the theology that the catholic clergy has created. I have no problems with catholics in general… Most of you are probably fine people wich i wouldn’t have problems being friends with… 🙂 Please don’t misunderstand me at this point.

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
 
no, of course not… I believe that heaven is full of Gods creations. Not so many humans though, but i believe there are a couple of hundred, remember the people that was raised from the grave when Jesus rose from the dead? those and the obvius ascentions that we can read about in the bible, i believe are in heaven, but i still absolutely not believe or think that we should pray for their intersession, not under any circomstances… I rely on Christ only for my salvation, not humans, weather they be dead or not… No offence meant to anyome.

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
Do you think those Saints in Heaven can hear you?
 
Well can i just summary alittle, protestant do not need a image of beloved Jesus/Mary for prayer, for God is present everywhere and any time. We need a beautiful heart to see a beautiful God, no need picture or craved image…for Holy Spirit dwell in us, so no need to be uncertain that you need a picture/image to concentrate on the prayer. Our spirit intercess with Holy spirit when we pray!!! God will hear our prayer even without picture/image:D

Just like when we are hungry, the brain send signal, not when we look at food then we know we are hungry…
 
Just like when we are hungry, the brain send signal, not when we look at food then we know we are hungry…
True, but how many times do you smell something and think, man I think I will have … (whatever it is that you smell)

How many times going out to eat, or shopping in the store do you see something and think I want that, or I think I’ll buy that and make that for dinner, just because it looked good.

Seeing images of Christ reminds me that I need to pray. Espeically at moments in my day that seem tough.

Seeing images of Mary, remind me that she was a “good” mother and I can be a good mother too. I then pray to God for strength to help me fullfill my vocation as a Mother.

Day to Day live is hard! It’s a hard road to walk, many times we don’t have follow christians to walk it with us. To help us stay on the straight and narrow. Sure we have Christ, but sometimes you need to have the support of your follow Christians.

Many times we don’t have fellow Christians around to help us, to give us encourgement. However, at those moments of our weekness we may look at a cross and be remind of Christ and how we can find strength in Him. We can look at an image of a saint and be reminded that they are people like us, and they walked with Christ and found strength in Him. If they can do it so can we!!!

What’s wrong with that???
 
Well can i just summary alittle, protestant do not need a image of beloved Jesus/Mary for prayer, for God is present everywhere and any time. We need a beautiful heart to see a beautiful God, no need picture or craved image…for Holy Spirit dwell in us, so no need to be uncertain that you need a picture/image to concentrate on the prayer. Our spirit intercess with Holy spirit when we pray!!! God will hear our prayer even without picture/image:D

Just like when we are hungry, the brain send signal, not when we look at food then we know we are hungry…
No Catholic has ever ‘needed an image’ in order to pray. Catholicism does not need them.
The point about Sacred images is this:
The Christian Church from its very beginnings had images painted on walls, or mosaic tiles on Church floors, decorating His house for the glory of God, and instructing, and reminding the Faithful. Apart from visual art inspired by the Sacred, there were continuous written works of art inspired by the Sacred Scriptures.
From the very beginning of the Church, Happy.
The question really is, why did the protestants want to destroy everything that reminded them of their faith. It was in fact a crime in protestant lands - it was illegal in protestant Netherlands to make or have any religous art. Anything that might remind them of Christianity was destroyed.
Your spiritual ancestors, Happy, welcomed Catholic theology books which were inspired by scriptures they also welcomed another type of art that reminded them of their Faith.
That is, until someone made them feel ashamed of these reminders of their Faith.
 
Happygal, when I pray to Jesus, I am always looking at either a Crucifix on a wall or at the one on my Rosary.

That visualization of God’s Love for to the whole world keeps me centered and focused. As long as I have that visual focus I can pray for a couple hours.

Without the visual focus I tend to drift in thought.

Happygal, have you ever prayed out loud for 2 hours straight?
 
Heres a little test, its a bit crude, but then this is what the protestants thought was right.
Locate some photos of your best friends, friends you love, and perhaps those who have died.
Next take a sharp knife and start to stab and cut up your photos of your beloved friends.

If you cannot bring yourself to do that, then keep in mind that the protestant could not stand looking at an image of their Saviour and they must destroy it as quickly as possible and then chase down the criminals who made the pictures.!
 
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Maybe I could walk into a Protestant Church with a Portrait of Christ ( the most common I have seen in Protestant churches is one where he is praying and the light of God is shining down on him ) and slash it with a knife. And see what type of response I would get? Sacrilege maybe? And if anyone said anything, I would respond: “You don’t worship this thing, do you?”
 
We can look at an image of a saint and be reminded that they are people like us, and they walked with Christ and found strength in Him. If they can do it so can we!!!
What’s wrong with that???
The problem is, that Jesus does not want you to worship Him like that, because that’s how pagans do/did it.

This is what Jesus answered the devil when he wanted Jesus to fall down before him:

Mat 4:9-10
“And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

for the someone who asked me if i thought Jesus not talked to or prayed to the angels that showed themselves to him to comfort him, this is the best answer. He knew what was right. So the only one he prayed to that we can read of in the bible was His Father that is in the heaven, God Allmighty.

And I just want to remind you of a few scriptures that really show the state of the dead. So that there is no mistake. It seems that you dont really ask for saint’s intersession, but pray to God instead, wich is good. But still, i want to paste these scriptures in here for the record… 🙂

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
(Psa 115:17)

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(Ecc 9:5)

And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
(Luk 24:3-7)

I think this is particularly interresting, because the angels ask why they seek the living among the dead. But after what i understand from catholics in general is that the dead (their spirit) is allready in heaven or purgatory or hell… But this shows us that the dead Christ was in the grave, not anywhere else.

And another thing i find puzzling; if all knew that people’s spirit where going here or there, especially if they where believers, why wouldn’t they be happy for the people that went to heaven, and not mourn, because they would definatly be in a much better place than here on earth. And why on earth would Jesus and the deciples bring back people from the dead, that’s like dragging them out of heaven again, to live in this miserable sinful world again… i know that if i was Lazarus, and had seen the beauty of heaven, just to get dragged back out again after several days in paradise, i would not be happy… i would be very disappointed…

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
(Rom 4:17)

The word quickeneth here means:

G2227
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

Make alive, give life, quicken… hmmm, this means to me that the person who was dead, and that is quickened, is made to come alive again… But after catholic thinking, this person is allready alive, in heaven, as a spirit? There is no need of making him come alive again, he IS alive, notice that this word does not mean “to get his body back.”

To be continued:
 
continued:

Also resurrection means this;
G386
anastasis
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

Raised to life again. Still no “will be given his/her body back”

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(1Th 4:16)

Again, why would Jesus rise people twice? first in the minute he died, and then again at Jesus second coming? There is only mentioned two “rise from the dead”-events, the first is when Jesus comes back for the second time to get His faithful with Him into heaven. The second event is when he comes back after a thousand years to pass a final judgement over the fallen ones, the devil and his angels, and the people that supported the devil…

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
(Rev 14:13)

This is also an interesting scripture; “that they may rest from their labours”

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:5)

Here is what i mentioned regarding the first and second resurrection. The first resurrection is the people that will taken with Jesus into heaven. THE OTHER ONES WILL NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL A THOUSAND YEARS… they are dead… That means, no life, no pain, no joy, no feelings, no torture in hell, because “the dead know not any thing”…

I believe that the proof that the people who died, are unconscious, and in a state of total unawareness of the surrounding world, is more that sufficient to topple over the belief of a everlasting burning inferno that God is going to use to torture his creatures with… And this, again, topples over the belief that the dead saints not mentioned in the bible as risen, are totally unaware of the prayers given to them for intersession. If you want Jesus to help you, ask Jesus, noone else can help. (having live people to pray for you, and with you are a totally different matter, and reccomendable too… 🙂 )

whoah… that was a long one… Not everything here was applicable to you Mommyof02green, i replied in general to everyone else in here as well… 🙂

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top