10 Commandments, graven images

[Saint_Michael]

Protestant:
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Catholic:
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Hebrew:
2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

Is this accurate? I got it off a site when looking up 10 commandments. Do we as Catholics not have the “graven image” stipulation in our ten commandments? And if we do why do we make graven images and bow down in front of them while offering prayers? Doesn’t this commandment seem pretty simple and straightforward?

I’ve already read this and I don’t find ti to be a good apologetic on the topic:

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp

Let em add that Protestants with pictures of Jesus, crosses etc… aren’t much different. But this combined with moving the sabbath has always bothered me. The 10 commandments whould never be changed and yet it appears we have.

Any ideas?

I’m Catholic BTW.

 

[corvidae]

I am pretty sure the prohibition on graven images is still there. But what does it mean.

For example, right after giving the commandments, God commands a box to be made to house them, and on the top of this box are to be two cherubim.

And let us not forget the bronze serpent of Moses, that God commanded him to build.

I would guess that the prohibition on graven images is on images that are to be worshipped, as idols are.

A lone Raven

 

[ttg]

Here is another good link to read:

socrates58.blogspot.com/2004_08_29_socrates58_archive.html#109433472286902377

 

[RCCDefender]

Read this article at Catholic Answers.

 

[Saint_Michael]

IFor example, right after giving the commandments, God commands a box to be made to house them, and on the top of this box are to be two cherubim.

And let us not forget the bronze serpent of Moses, that God commanded him to build.

The difference to me is the only two examples you cite are from God commanding directly to build them. God didn’t command us to build statues of Jesus, Mary, or the Saints, nor to bow down in front of them and pray and light candles.

I bring this question up because I almost never light candles and bow down in front of statues, and I was looking at folks doing this and thinking of the command:

“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them”

And I’m like we have graven images and people bwoing down to them, when the 2nd commandment seems so straightforward and simple.

The same with keep Holy the Sabbath. As Christians we do not keep Holy the sabbath, and we most certainly should, it’s part of the ten commandments. How can we be 100% right when we appear to flout two of the 10 commandments?

 

[Atreyu]

Protestant:
Is this accurate? I got it off a site when looking up 10 commandments. Do we as Catholics not have the “graven image” stipulation in our ten commandments? And if we do why do we make graven images and bow down in front of them while offering prayers? Doesn’t this commandment seem pretty simple and straightforward?

I’ve already read this and I don’t find ti to be a good apologetic on the topic:

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp

Let em add that Protestants with pictures of Jesus, crosses etc… aren’t much different. But this combined with moving the sabbath has always bothered me. The 10 commandments whould never be changed and yet it appears we have.

Any ideas?

I’m Catholic BTW.

The Catholics number the Commandments differently, and the command about graven images is included with the rest of the commands that are about idolatry; in the First Commandment. Check it out in the Catechism if you wish, it’s all there (and the Catechism should always be your first port-of-call).

Another point: Catholics didn’t “move” the Sabbath; the Sabbath is and always will be Saturday. But honouring Sunday (the Lord’s Day) “satisfies” (I can’t think of a better word here) the Commandment to honour the Sabbath. I guess you could say that the Lord’s Day replaces the Sabbath; but the Sabbath will always be the Sabbath. Check it out in the Catechism, it’s stated much better there than in this post

 

[Saint_Michael]

Read this article at Catholic Answers.

:banghead: In my initial post I already said I read this and found it to be a bad apologetic. The two examples God directly commands them to be built. There’s no examples of early Christians building statues and praying to them. The apologetic is very shallow and doesn’t give a good reason why we contradict the 2nd commandment and build statues and bow down to them.

 

[jemfinch]

But this combined with moving the sabbath has always bothered me.

God didn’t say to keep Saturdays holy, He said to keep the Sabbath day holy

With respect to the “graven images” commandment, we must remember that Christ sanctified the material world when He descended from heaven and became man. Would we be allowed to take polaroid pictures of Jesus when he walked the earth? I think so. Could a painter paint a picture of Jesus? I think so. Why, then, would we lose that right when our Lord, who said He’d be with us “until the end of the age” ascended into heaven?

Remember, the Jews were commanded not to make any graven images in a time before God Himself had chosen to become man. To make a graven image at that point would be to usurp God’s authority and preempt His prerogative.

Also remember that Jews at times were commanded to make graven images: consider the Ark of the Covenant, which had two angels (I forget their exact sort) on its lid. So graven images can’t be intrinsically evil, but something extrinsic makes their creation evil.

Also consider what your logic would result in: once a family member died, you’d have to destroy all pictures of the person, lest you have a graven image of someone in heaven or in hell. If it’s wrong to have an image of the Blessed Virgin after she’s been assumed into heaven, then it’s wrong to have an image of a beloved family member after he or she has died.

Jeremy

 

[Atreyu]

The difference to me is the only two examples you cite are from God commanding directly to build them. God didn’t command us to build statues of Jesus, Mary, or the Saints, nor to bow down in front of them and pray and light candles.

I bring this question up because I almost never light candles and bow down in front of statues, and I was looking at folks doing this and thinking of the command:

“Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them”

And I’m like we have graven images and people bwoing down to them, when the 2nd commandment seems so straightforward and simple.

The same with keep Holy the Sabbath. As Christians we do not keep Holy the sabbath, and we most certainly should, it’s part of the ten commandments. How can we be 100% right when we appear to flout two of the 10 commandments?

Honouring the statue (bowing or whatever - I also don’t usually do this kind of stuff, apart from maybe the odd kiss and toe-rub) honours the person the statue represents. A good thing to learn about is the Greek words that (accurately) describe this. The Greek words the Church uses are dulia for veneration/honour and latrea (sp?) for the adoration that is due to God alone. These are of two different species. To illustrate this, I will use the example of a third word: hyperdulia. This is the dulia that we use for Mary. She is the greatest of the saints, since she is the handmaid of the Lord. Therefore we “use” (not sure if that’s the best word) hyperdulia when honouring her. But hyperdulia isn’t a 5 compared to a 1 for dulia and a 10 for latrea. Hyperdulia and dulia are of completely different species to latrea.

For your other points, you should really go read the Catechism here and here and here and then come back with any more questions you might have. Pax tecum!

 

[Apologia100]

I am pretty sure the prohibition on graven images is still there. But what does it mean.

For example, right after giving the commandments, God commands a box to be made to house them, and on the top of this box are to be two cherubim.

And let us not forget the bronze serpent of Moses, that God commanded him to build.

I would guess that the prohibition on graven images is on images that are to be worshipped, as idols are.

A lone Raven

You are exactly right. The prohibition on graven images is against images (totems) that are carved or fabricated to be worshipped. God’s analogy is like this.

1. God makes a tree.
2. Man cuts down the tree.
3. Man carves the image of a bird from the tree.
4. Man worships the bird statue.
5. God gets irrate.

What Catholics do is use images and statues as a means of focusing worship on God. We don’t worship statues as gods themselves, but as a representation of the True God.

 

[Saint_Michael]

You are exactly right. The prohibition on graven images is against images (totems) that are carved or fabricated to be worshipped. God’s analogy is like this…

But that isn’t what the commandment says:

“Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them”

It says “thou shall not bow down to them NOR serve them”. It’s two parts that are forbidden. The first bowing down, the second serving them. So if you served a statue but did not bow down you would be in error, bowing to a statue but not worshipping it appears from the 2nd commandment is still in error.

I guess it’s tough for me to fathom why it’s even needed? Why not err on the side of caution and NOT create graven images to bow down to, then use mental gymanstics to explain that “thou shall not bow down to them NOR serve them” actually means something else entirely?

 

[Atreyu]

But that isn’t what the commandment says:

“Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them”

It says “thou shall not bow down to them NOR serve them”. It’s two parts that are forbidden. The first bowing down, the second serving them. So if you served a statue but did not bow down you would be in error, bowing to a statue but not worshipping it appears from the 2nd commandment is still in error.

I guess it’s tough for me to fathom why it’s even needed? Why not err on the side of caution and NOT create graven images to bow down to, then use mental gymanstics to explain that “thou shall not bow down to them NOR serve them” actually means something else entirely?

Have you read the Catechism entries yet Saint Michael? Check them out, it won’t take you too long!

 

[Apologia100]

But that isn’t what the commandment says:

“Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them”

It says “thou shall not bow down to them NOR serve them”. It’s two parts that are forbidden. The first bowing down, the second serving them. So if you served a statue but did not bow down you would be in error, bowing to a statue but not worshipping it appears from the 2nd commandment is still in error.

I guess it’s tough for me to fathom why it’s even needed? Why not err on the side of caution and NOT create graven images to bow down to, then use mental gymanstics to explain that “thou shall not bow down to them NOR serve them” actually means something else entirely?

Why would he give Moses the commandment “Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image.” and then later command Moses to create a bronze serpent? Wouldn’t that appear to be God contradicting Himself?

 

[jemfinch]

But that isn’t what the commandment says:

“Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them”

It says “thou shall not bow down to them NOR serve them”. It’s two parts that are forbidden. The first bowing down, the second serving them.

Is God not allowed to speak figuratively? Could He not have meant, “Thou shall not worship them” and said, “Thou shall not bow down to them”, just like when we say, “It’s raining cats and dogs” we don’t literally mean, “Cats and dogs are falling from the sky”?

So if you served a statue but did not bow down you would be in error, bowing to a statue but not worshipping

“Worshipping”? Now you’re the one changing the words

I guess it’s tough for me to fathom why it’s even needed?

Do you take pictures? Do you have any photographs on your desk, or paintings on your walls? Do you ever buy souvenirs of places you visit? It’s needed because humans are visual beings, who grow in their love for remote things by looking at or feeling small replicas, mementoes of those things.

Why not err on the side of caution and NOT create graven images to bow down to,

Why not err on the side of caution and use whatever means we can to bring us closer to God?

then use mental gymanstics to explain that “thou shall not bow down to them NOR serve them” actually means something else entirely?

Not “something else entirely” but “something other than an ultra-literalistic interpretation of the text.”

If you’re really interested in why the Church teaches what it does about icons, perhaps you should read about the Second Council of Nicea, the seventh ecumenical council, when it was decided that iconoclasm (the heresy you seem to be espousing) is heretical.

And it didn’t go unnoticed that you didn’t interact with any of the statements in my previous post, especially the last part. To be consistent with the doctrine you espouse, you would have to rid yourself of all images of deceased loved ones, and I seriously doubt you’ve done that. You keep images of your beloved departed because it honors them; why can’t others keep images of the Blessed Virgin, or Jesus Christ, or Saint Michael himself in honor of them? Why is it reasonable for you to honor your worldly family members by keeping images of them, but unreasonable for you to honor your spiritual family; your mother Mary, your brother Jesus Christ by keeping images of them?

Jeremy

 

[quasimodo]

I have not read nay of the articles referred to in this thread but just oof the top of my head…

there are more than 10 commandments in the 10 commandments
there is no guide to how to break them up into 10
Catholics are not the only ones who use the “Catholic” system

the command is against worship of created things in place of God. In the old days they used to make an idol and declare it to be a God. They’d worship it by bowing down to it and praying to it - because to them it was a god. the commandment seeks to prohibit the substitution of a creation for the ultimate creator. If you are not worshiping it you are not in violation of the commandment. be careful of legalism or scrupulocity.

 

[Genesis315]

Go through the Gospels and look at where Jesus lists the commandments. He never mentions images.

 

[Atreyu]

Go through the Gospels and look at where Jesus lists the commandments. He never mentions images.

Genesis it is wrong to worship an image. That is idolatry today every bit as much as it was idolatry in ancient Israel. But Catholics do not worship images, we honour the person the image represents.

 

[RCCDefender]

:banghead: In my initial post I already said I read this and found it to be a bad apologetic. The two examples God directly commands them to be built. There’s no examples of early Christians building statues and praying to them. The apologetic is very shallow and doesn’t give a good reason why we contradict the 2nd commandment and build statues and bow down to them.

Just wanted to say, sorry for causing you so much frustration by suggesting this article. I either looked past that or did not realize it was the same article. Sorry. I will continue to search.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Protestant:
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Catholic:
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Hebrew:
2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

Is this accurate? I got it off a site when looking up 10 commandments. Do we as Catholics not have the “graven image” stipulation in our ten commandments? And if we do why do we make graven images and bow down in front of them while offering prayers? Doesn’t this commandment seem pretty simple and straightforward?

I’ve already read this and I don’t find ti to be a good apologetic on the topic:

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp

Let em add that Protestants with pictures of Jesus, crosses etc… aren’t much different. But this combined with moving the sabbath has always bothered me. The 10 commandments whould never be changed and yet it appears we have.

Any ideas?

I’m Catholic BTW.

Do you think the second commandment forbids making any kind of statues? For example, are statues such as the Lincoln Memorial in violation of the Second Commandment? What about Rodin’s The Thinker or Michelangelo’s David? How about photographs of family members? What about stuffed animals? They are certainly images of things “on the earth.”
The second commandment forbids worshipping the statues and images as gods. If a person actually did begin worshipping their stuffed teddy bear, then it would indeed be sinful. But it is not the objects themselves, or making them, but the worship of them.
As for bowing down to them, remember, bowing or kneeling down to something does not necessarily mean worship. It is the custom in western society for men to kneel before their girlfriends when they are about to propose. Are these young men worshipping their girlfriends or future wives? In Jane Austen’s time, it was the custom of men and women to bow and curtsey to each other. Were they worshipping each other?
It is not really the act of bowing or making statues or paintings that is sinful. It is the act of worshipping something other than God.

 

[Atreyu]

Do you think the second commandment forbids making any kind of statues? For example, are statues such as the Lincoln Memorial in violation of the Second Commandment? What about Rodin’s The Thinker or Michelangelo’s David? How about photographs of family members? What about stuffed animals? They are certainly images of things “on the earth.”
The second commandment forbids worshipping the statues and images as gods. If a person actually did begin worshipping their stuffed teddy bear, then it would indeed be sinful. But it is not the objects themselves, or making them, but the worship of them.
As for bowing down to them, remember, bowing or kneeling down to something does not necessarily mean worship. It is the custom in western society for men to kneel before their girlfriends when they are about to propose. Are these young men worshipping their girlfriends or future wives? In Jane Austen’s time, it was the custom of men and women to bow and curtsey to each other. Were they worshipping each other?
It is not really the act of bowing or making statues or paintings that is sinful. It is the act of worshipping something other than God.

cough couch First Commandment Lucy! Not the Second. The First is about Idolatry, the Second is about Blasphemy.