10 Commandments, graven images

[amills]

Saint Michael,

We live in a material world. We can choose to use the material things for either the greater honor and glory of God or choose to dishonor God. Let me now look at this in a different light. I have heard many times how Catholics are bowing down to images and violating the commandment of God. My major concern with those who argue this is that these are many times the same people who put many many material things before God - cars, money, big houses. They may not physically bow down but they certainly are spiritually bowing down to images. On the other hand they have put so much emphasis on the literal interpretion of the commandment against images that they have missed how the commandment applies today. And then we may see people who actually own statues and pray before them. They use these to assist in concentrating on Christ and trying to follow in a better way. They are using these to enable them to honor God more. We are meant to use the material things that God gave us. I hope we don’t miss the point by limiting our meaning of this commandment so that we can only point fingers at those who use statues instead of those who are really worshipping false images today - money, electonics, clothes, etc.

We must also look at the historical use of images by the pagans. Images are used much much differently today.

Regarding the Sabbath. Early Christian writings indicate that the Apostles considered Sunday the day that Christians should observe. Some of those writings indicated that it is considered a new Sabbath established by Christ and it is the Eight day.

Just an observation - I have noted that those who question the use of images by Catholics and the Sabbath day are many times those religions that perform abortions in their hospitals. They are also those who spread lies readily about Catholics. In other Words they may be so busy pointing fingers over the commandment against images and what day to worship that they miss the point when it comes to killing and lying.

Be sure to look at the whole picture of a faith before you buy bits and pieces of it.

Praying for you gain the understanding you seek.

 

[Atreyu]

Saint Michael think of it this way. Every human in this world is separated from grace and Truth by the stain of Original Sin. A result of this is that we don’t necessarily recognise Truth when we find it. Hence pretty much everyone in the world has stumbling blocks of some kind. This is yours, and I had the same stumbling block not so long ago, but unfortunately my thread was lost in the “black out”.

So we all have stumbling blocks. This particular stumbling block was addressed in the 8th century by the fathers of the Church who knew exactly what they were doing. Since then, every bishop and pope has firmly and consistently upheld that doctrine; once it has been explained to them. So we are faced with two options:

• 
  *]We are wrong by virtue of the stain of Original Sin and we just can’t see the Truth right now.
  *]We are right and the doctrine is teaching idolatry. This means that we actually can see something that the pope is unable to see. We know more than the pope! And the pope before him, and everyone else as well!
  
  The point that I’m trying to convey is that since all of these people didn’t have a problem with it, then maybe the problem is with us? But so far I haven’t addressed the actual theology at all, and that is what I would like to do now.
  
  As I see it, the following is what this all comes down to: is bowing to a statue idolatry? The Catholic Church includes the command about graven images along with the other commands on idolatry, and that makes a lot of sense imo. So Saint Michael, do you think that the people who do this confuse the image or statue as being divine?

 

[thistle]

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut all I can do is pray on it, but this is something I am not comfortable with, and probably never will be. I don’t want to go back and forth saying the same things, thanks.

Did you read the CCC link one of the earlier posters gave you. It answers your question. Here it is in full:

“You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . .”

CCC 2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: “Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure…” It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.” He is “the author of beauty.”

CCC 2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.

CCC 2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

CCC 2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. the movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Protestant:
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Maybe its a change in the education system. A colon introduces *directly related *ideas, full stops terminate statements.
For example:
If you want to get ‘saved’, one should:
not make graven images,
not bow down to them,
not serve them, … why?.. :
because I the Lord your God am a jealous God;
and I show mercy to those who love Me. full stop]

People bow down to tie their shoelaces, so it is not bowing that that is not allowed.
God created images, and Christ is the image of God; made for all of us to see.
If you work for your living, you are serving your masters [employers] . Alterboys serve the priest, and children serve their parents.

So either all the world is going to hell through no fault of its own, or the above sentence needs its punctuation.
The sentence is a whole statement.
We cannot bow to, and serve created matter as another god.
And statues and paintings are not worshipped as God.

 

[jemfinch]

You have no business being on these boards with your attitude.

And yet you still won’t interact with anyone who tries to show you where you’ve gone wrong. Why would you ask a question and then refuse to listen to the answers provided? I’m beginning to think you were less than authentic in your original post here.

Do you honesty think rhetoric like this is beneficial to people with questions, and struggles?

It’s not just rhetoric; some of what Ken said was correct. You must believe that it is permissible to venerate icons/images of the saints in order to be fully Catholic.

Your post is so full of vitriol, judgmental self rightous etc… I can’t even believe you can write that and then claim I need to go to confession and for God to have have mercy on MY soul, what a joke.

God forbid someone recognize the apparent fact that you’re obstinately sinning in your refusal to accept the Church’s teaching on images.

What still amazes me is that you haven’t yet, not a single time, interacted with an argument presented to you. Do you really want to resolve the issue you posted in your original post here, or do you just want to ignore us while we try to help you? Do you want to be Catholic, or do you want to be a Protestant in Catholic clothing?

Jeremy

 

[Church_Militant]

:banghead: In my initial post I already said I read this and found it to be a bad apologetic. The two examples God directly commands them to be built. There’s no examples of early Christians building statues and praying to them. The apologetic is very shallow and doesn’t give a good reason why we contradict the 2nd commandment and build statues and bow down to them.

Here’s something that you must not have searched for. Dave’s Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators. We do not contradict the 1st commandment at all. The fact is that we do not worship any images.

As for your assertion that we “most certainly should keep the Sabbath”, then you need to go all the way back to the New Testament and straighten out the apostles, because they ceased being Jews and worshipping on the Sabbath in Acts of the Apostles, and the rest of the New Testament supports that. Christians do not observe the Sabbath, we celebrate the Lord’s Day in honor of the resurrection of Our Lord and this is apostolic in nature, supported by the New Testament.

1. Matthew 28:1 And in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.
2. Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning, the first day of the week, they come to the sepulchre, the sun being now risen.
3. Mark 16:9 But he rising early the first day of the week, appeared first to Mary Magdalen, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
4. Luke 24:1 And on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared.
5. John 20:1 And on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalen cometh early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre; and she saw the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
6. Acts Of Apostles 20:7 And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight.
7. 1st Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of the week let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made.
8. John 20:19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you.
9. Revelation 1:10 I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

You are being influenced by Fundamentalist theology (I note the characteristic reference to "the 2nd commandment, when in fact Catholics do not number the commandments that way and never have.)

So…what you have here is you trying to make Catholic doctrine and teaching that dates back to the apostles and is supported by the New Tesament fit into that misbegotten post-reformation theology, and it won’t work and Thank God for that!

I won’t deal with the graven image discussion, since the linked thread does that very well. If you’re Catholic, you better start your research with Catholic sources and not those outside the church who maintain their 500 year old errors that have been more than refuted again and again and again. As 2nd Timothy 2:15 says, “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.”. Notice that St. Paul doesn’t tell St. Timothy to just study the Bible…
Pax tecum,

 

[Church_Militant]

To go against that decision of the Church and hold to a teaching to where you believe using images in worship constitutes Idolatry- is a departure from the Catholic Faith. Those who believe suchly are NOT Catholic and are excommunicated Ipso-Facto from the Church

and need to go to confession before being able to receive Holy Communion.

**No wonder our churches after Vatican II have suffered from people such as yourself who have stayed in the Church and tried to change her teaching on Sacred Images. May God have mercy on you. you are destroying the Christian Faith. Allah would be proud! The followers of that false god also are like you- using a primitive prohibition that has NOTHING TO DO with images in Christian worship.**The first bolded statement is not true sir. Questioning church teaching does not incur excommunication the way procurring/having/providing an abortion does.

Your second bolded statement is also wrong. Vatican II had nothing whatever to do with the difficulty in hand and many Catholics (both pre and post VII.) have asked these questions, and gotten good, charitable, and knowledgeable responses, but yours is not one of them.

St. Mike…I’m sorry you caught that load…
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

 

[RCCDefender]

St. Michael, I’d just like to ask why you decided to choose that handle? Thanks!

 

[Saint_Michael]

The first bolded statement is not true sir. Questioning church teaching does not incur excommunication the way procurring/having/providing an abortion does.

Your second bolded statement is also wrong. Vatican II had nothing whatever to do with the difficulty in hand and many Catholics (both pre and post VII.) have asked these questions, and gotten good, charitable, and knowledgeable responses, but yours is not one of them.

St. Mike…I’m sorry you caught that load…
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

Thank you, you’re always a voice of reason on these boards when I’ve lost hope on some of the posters. People feel these boards are to pile on and insult people having problems instead of helping them out.

To everyone,

I’ve read everything and said numerous times I appreciate all the feedback even if I don’t address it directly, I can’t respond to every post, and some of you I’ve put on ignore so I can’t read what you’re writing anyway (so anyone screaming at me that I’m a Protestant or lying, God have mercy on my soul, I’m destroyig the Church or not sincere, don’t bother replying because I’m ignoring you as to not drag the topic further into middle school behavior), I don’t have the time to respond to everyone. Sometimes I think it’s better to post a subject and get the feedback, read it and take it in ,and see where it leads me, rather than argue.

 

[Saint_Michael]

St. Michael, I’d just like to ask why you decided to choose that handle? Thanks!

Saint Michael is my favorite patron Saint.

 

[RCCDefender]

Saint Michael is my favorite patron Saint.

So, would you think it was wrong to have a statue or a picture of him? Do you ever pray the St. Michael prayer or talk to him in any way?

 

[Saint_Michael]

So, would you think it was wrong to have a statue or a picture of him?

That’s what I’m trying to figure out… I own a St. Michael’s Holy Water font from Italy, but I don’t pray in front of it, and I’m not certain I should even have it.

Do you ever pray the St. Michael prayer or talk to him in any way?

Yes of course I believe in the Communion of Saints, and asking the Saints for intercession, the prayer of the righteous availeth much.

 

[RCCDefender]

That’s what I’m trying to figure out… I own a St. Michael’s Holy Water font from Italy, but I don’t pray in front of it, and I’m not certain I should even have it.

Yes of course I believe in the Communion of Saints, and asking the Saints for intercession, the prayer of the righteous availeth much.

So, you understand the difference between worshiping a saint and the intersession of saints. That’s good. Now I don’t know your family makeup or anything, but let’s just say that what if “Grandma Georgina” had died. Do you think it would be wrong to have a picture of her? Do you have any pictures of relatives who have passed on? What about visiting their graves? Would you/have you ever do/done that? If so, did you happen to talk to them while at the grave site or while looking at their picture? It would be the same thing wouldn’t it?

 

[Lillith]

Saint Michael Hello!

I wanted to chime in…just because I know how this is probably a stumbling block for your prayer life…especially in Church as you sit with all those statues looming…

As a former athiest (raised from birth) I never experienced this difficulty that you are having…mine were different and for another thread. I’ll try to give you the why this doesn’t bother me answers…

My parents did indoctrinate an atheist upbringing with discussions of big bang theories and poor delusional well meaning Christians who simply have a fear of dying and so made up the Bible. We moved into a rental house and I found a crucifix, and that is how I learned about Jesus…and it was the first seed that was planted for me, the first step of my personal salvation path. If you have trouble with statues of Saints…eventually you might find yourself slipping down the slope and having trouble with the vision of Christ crucified. A lot of Protestant Churches only have crosses, and recently I have noticed in my neck of the woods the crosses have even been taken away.

In the early Church lots were illiterate, and Bibles were few and statues told stories, and just like my circumstance they taught Christianity. At my Church we have stained glass windows with most of the Apostles and dozens of Saints. Whenever a Homily is speaking of a great Saint of the Church my priest always points to the window…or statue…to remind us that this saint is real. Still quite an affective teaching tool…especially for the children who can’t read, and rememberance of real events.

Also this thought…when a person kneels, and a statue just so happens to be in the vacinity…is that person concentrating on the plaster of Paris or Marble…or is he Praying to God (or asking for prayers from the Saints)? I always understood Worship to be a total mind and heart process. If you are saying that people are accidently worshipping statues…I am saying that I don’t believe accidental worship is possible…it is from the heart.

I hope that I have been some sort of help to you! We all have doubts and difficulties…every now and then I hear my dad in my head…pray about it. That’s what I do

 

[Atreyu]

Thank you, you’re always a voice of reason on these boards when I’ve lost hope on some of the posters. People feel these boards are to pile on and insult people having problems instead of helping them out.

To everyone,

I’ve read everything and said numerous times I appreciate all the feedback even if I don’t address it directly, I can’t respond to every post, and some of you I’ve put on ignore so I can’t read what you’re writing anyway (so anyone screaming at me that I’m a Protestant or lying, God have mercy on my soul, I’m destroyig the Church or not sincere, don’t bother replying because I’m ignoring you as to not drag the topic further into middle school behavior), I don’t have the time to respond to everyone. Sometimes I think it’s better to post a subject and get the feedback, read it and take it in ,and see where it leads me, rather than argue.

Am I on your ignore list? I’ll take a non-answer as a “yes”. Just wondering…

 

[kleary]

You have no business being on these boards with your attitude. Do you honesty think rhetoric like this is beneficial to people with questions, and struggles?

Your post is so full of vitriol, judgmental self rightous etc… I can’t even believe you can write that and then claim I need to go to confession and for God to have have mercy on MY soul, what a joke.

An ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, Nicea 787 declares anathema to anyone who would dare to claim that the prohibition of graven images given in Holy Scripture means no statues in churches- that we should not honor any images of Jesus, His Mother and the saints. It is not I who say “you are wrong and need to go to confession”. The Catholic Church has said such- for believing in the Iconoclast heresy.

“Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the image breakers.
Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.
Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.
Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.
Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.
Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.
Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord hath delivered us from idols.
Anathema to those who spurn the teachings of the holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church, taking as a pretext and making their own the arguments of Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Dioscorus, that unless we were evidently taught by the Old and New Testaments, we should not follow the teachings of the holy Fathers and of the holy Ecumenical Synods, and the tradition of the Catholic Church.
Anathema to those who dare to say that the Catholic Church hath at any time sanctioned idols. Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers.”

Council of Nicea - 787

 

[amills]

That’s what I’m trying to figure out… I own a St. Michael’s Holy Water font from Italy, but I don’t pray in front of it, and I’m not certain I should even have it.

Does it draw you closer to God or pull you away from God. If it does not pull you closer to God then there is no use to it. If however, it reminds you of God then you certainly should have it.

I have a crucifix on my wall. When I come into the living room in the morning I cannot miss seeing it. I reminds me to say my morning prayers and all that Jesus did for me. If I did not have that reminder I may just forget and go on my way. I like to keep reminders around me and pictures, statues, crosses, etc. draw me to God. They also make a statement to anyone who comes in my home. They yell quite clearly to them “I’m Catholic and proud of it! I love Jesus and all he did for me!” If I were to strip my home of such things then I might also strip my life of much holiness.

 

[kleary]

The first bolded statement is not true sir. Questioning church teaching does not incur excommunication the way procurring/having/providing an abortion does.

Your second bolded statement is also wrong. Vatican II had nothing whatever to do with the difficulty in hand and many Catholics (both pre and post VII.) have asked these questions, and gotten good, charitable, and knowledgeable responses, but yours is not one of them.

St. Mike…I’m sorry you caught that load…
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

Having a question concerning Church teaching does not make you a heretic. Believing in your heart what is declared heresy does.

The individual starting this thread has shown a belief that the images in the Catholic Church are indeed idols and prohibited by God.

Ken

 

[kleary]

The first bolded statement is not true sir. Questioning church teaching does not incur excommunication the way procurring/having/providing an abortion does.

Your second bolded statement is also wrong. Vatican II had nothing whatever to do with the difficulty in hand and many Catholics (both pre and post VII.) have asked these questions, and gotten good, charitable, and knowledgeable responses, but yours is not one of them.

St. Mike…I’m sorry you caught that load…
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

Vatican II definitely had nothing to do with it, just those who use the Council, misinterpreting it to further their heretical or apostate agenda… one of which is the removal of statues from our churches.

Ken

 

[Atreyu]

The individual starting this thread has shown a belief that the images in the Catholic Church are indeed idols and prohibited by God.

Tripe! The OP has a stumbling block, and we as his brothers need to help him over it. Your rants aren’t helping anyone.