10 Commandments, graven images

[jemfinch]

Tripe! The OP has a stumbling block, and we as his brothers need to help him over it. Your rants aren’t helping anyone.

And yet he ignores those who would like to help him. His obstinacy seems to be evidence that he might not merely be stumbling but have already been spiritually blinded, as the CCC says.

assuming-I’m-already-ignored’ly yours,
Jeremy

 

[Saint_Michael]

Am I on your ignore list? I’ll take a non-answer as a “yes”. Just wondering…

No you’re not on my ignore, you actually had quite a bit to offer and I appreciate it, and I have read the Catechism passages, thank you. I only put the guys who start calling me a Protestant church destroyer, or question my sincerity with no merit. How does one dialogue with that? It’s easier to make them disapear to bother some other unlucky soul…

 

[Atreyu]

No you’re not on my ignore, you actually had quite a bit to offer and I appreciate it, and I have read the Catechism passages, thank you. I only put the guys who start calling me a Protestant church destroyer, or question my sincerity with no merit. How does one dialogue with that? It’s easier to make them disapear to bother some other unlucky soul…

You know what? I really don’t blame you for ignoring them. I had this almost exact same stumbling block a couple of months ago. Church Militant helped me out then as I hope he has helped you now (cheers CM ). I guess some people in this thread have never struggled through a stumbling block such as this, so they don’t know what it’s like to earnestly want to believe, without the intellectual assent that we know we need to have. It sounds to me like they’ve always believed everything that the Church has ever taught, without question. Well, lucky for some.

Don’t worry Saint Michael, you will get there in the end, I know it! Just pray and have faith. And keep on asking questions!

 

[Doxiemom]

I see them as art. Art that can be used to draw your mind and spirit closer to God as you worship Him. Some art pieces will move you to tears. I can take this even one step further. Art as film. There will never be a scene so moving as in the Passion when Mary runs to her Son and He turns to her and says “I will make things new again”.

Although some other Christians have a problem with statues( and they can make a valid argument) it has been asked that:

given they were caught up in a violent chaotic situation, and a Cross with Jesus was being fouled with feces and urine and then tossed into flames, how would they feel? Nothing at all or would they be horrified for the insult to the same Jesus we love?

But to balance myself, I must admit that i do know a group of lady catholic friends who take a statue of ST. (I forget who) and pass it around to place in their yards for it not to rain on the following day. Like it has some magic power. Stupid and in my opinion a sin and an insult to God.

Doxiemom

 

[Church_Militant]

Having a question concerning Church teaching does not make you a heretic. Believing in your heart what is declared heresy does.

The individual starting this thread has shown a belief that the images in the Catholic Church are indeed idols and prohibited by God.

Ken

Ken,
This is your personal interpretation of St.M’s posts. It is not mine.

Are his questions possibly fueled by heretical sources outside the church? Possibly.

Does he express difficulty in understanding and believing the historical and scriptural teaching of the church concerning this issue? Yes he does.

Is that grave sin? No it is not.

As for your rant about the statues, you are welcome to it. There are still staues in my parish and I love them dearly as they focus my whole being on the Lord and his saints whom I know are interceeding for me.

One thing that no one seems to have considered is the fact that images and icons as well as religious art has been used from the days of the early church to pass on the faith to others. Not all that many people could read and so the art was used to communicate the Gospel message and to encourage the faith of members of the Body of Christ. They are in fact the audio-visual aids of the early church!

The sad lack of such art in so many churches, both Catholic and non is (as I think Ken tries to point out) a dreadful departure from true Christian culture, and a terrible loss to our society.

Consider just the crucifix.
What does St. Paul say? "23: but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
24: but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. " (1st Corinthians 1:23 & 24) and “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” (1st Corinthians 2:2) So no one can validly claim that this “graven image” is heretical, since if that isn’t a powerful proclamation of Christ crucified, then I don’t know what is!

What are the statues & paintings of the saints? Images of holy heroes that remind us at all times that we are never alone or without intercessors as we race for the Kingdom of God (See Hebrews 12:1-2 Ever watch the “witnesses” of a race?!!) They help focus our hearts and minds as we go to prayer…especially when we may be so terribly burdened that we can barely focus on anything but our problems.

I hope this helps St_Michael. Needless to say, I have a strong devotion to your namesake as well.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

 

[RCCDefender]

My confessor once told me that doubt is not a sin as long as it doesn’t turn into disbelief.

 

[kleary]

My confessor once told me that doubt is not a sin as long as it doesn’t turn into disbelief.

And my confessor told me to doubt the faith taught to us IS MORTAL SIN, as taught constantly by the Church.

2088 CCC - "The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it.

**There are various ways of sinning against faith: **

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief.

**Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness. **

**2089 CCC *Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11 **

The use of images in worship is NOT idol worship as decreed by the Council of Nicea - this is part of our faith that the OP MUST hold to and never doubt.

So tell your confessor to put article 2088 and 2089 of the Catechism in his pocket for reference whenever he hears someone confess he has doubts concerning the Catholic Faith regarding statues of Jesus and the Saints when he has been taught otherwise to begin with.

Ken

 

[amills]

Let’s hypothetically say that the Church declares that we must get rid of all images tomorrow. All the Catholics agree and we burn all the pictures we have of loved ones, we destroy all our statues, strip our churches, get rid of all those images - get rid of everything we use to remind us of Jesus.

Now the Protestants are happy because Catholics no longer “worship” images.

What do you think we have done to the Christian faith by such actions? What have we left for future generations to know of our faith? The Bible and the Bible alone. I would ask - is this one book going to be enough?

 

[Church_Militant]

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance,

and to reject everything that is opposed to it…Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness. This is the only part that might even apply to the OP. It in no way implies mortal sin on his part since:

1. The very first sentence is precisely what he is seeking to do, while you browbeat him and all the rest of us with your personal interpretations of the teachings of the church and
2. Presume to judge his spiritual state, while at the same time in no way offering the very nourishment and protection that the CCC passage in question clearly teaches we all are responsible for.
3. There is no evidence in his posts that he deliberately cultivated this doubt, though I suspect that some non-Catholic has done so. Be that as it may, you need to focus on fixing the problem and not offer so much adversarial rhetoric which will in no way contribute to helping St_Michael to come to a good understanding of this doctrine and the banishment of his doubts.

You seem to have forgotten that the The spiritual works of mercy are:

* To instruct the ignorant;
* To counsel the doubtful;
* To admonish sinners;
* To bear wrongs patiently;
* To forgive offences willingly;
* To comfort the afflicted;
* To pray for the living and the dead.

Pax tecum,

 

[lak611]

Maybe its a change in the education system. A colon introduces *directly related *ideas, full stops terminate statements.
For example:
If you want to get ‘saved’, one should:
not make graven images,
not bow down to them,
not serve them, … why?.. :
because I the Lord your God am a jealous God;
and I show mercy to those who love Me. full stop]

People bow down to tie their shoelaces, so it is not bowing that that is not allowed.
God created images, and Christ is the image of God; made for all of us to see.
If you work for your living, you are serving your masters [employers] . Alterboys serve the priest, and children serve their parents.

So either all the world is going to hell through no fault of its own, or the above sentence needs its punctuation.
The sentence is a whole statement.
We cannot bow to, and serve created matter as another god.
And statues and paintings are not worshipped as God.

If people really believe that all images are idolatrous, then the only Christians who are not idol worshippers are the Amish! After all, Catholics and other Protestants besides the Amish all carry photographs of their family members. A picture or statue of a Saint is no different than a picture of one’s family. We don’t worship them, they are just reminders of our family on earth (our biological relatives) or our family in heaven (the saints). But that is why the Amish do not allow people to take their pictures and why their dolls have no faces, since the Amish are very strict on the commandment forbidding graven images.

 

[I_Leatherman]

If people really believe that all images are idolatrous, then the only Christians who are not idol worshippers are the Amish! After all, Catholics and other Protestants besides the Amish all carry photographs of their family members. A picture or statue of a Saint is no different than a picture of one’s family. We don’t worship them, they are just reminders of our family on earth (our biological relatives) or our family in heaven (the saints). But that is why the Amish do not allow people to take their pictures and why their dolls have no faces, since the Amish are very strict on the commandment forbidding graven images.

Yes, and written language which started as pictograms and hieroglyphics surely became stylised over time - but still, it remains essentially the same - pictures of ideas and sounds, graven images. Which is why Sacred Tradition was ‘aural only’ in the early Christian Church, as the Catholics keep telling everyone…

 

[Eireann]

But to balance myself, I must admit that i do know a group of lady catholic friends who take a statue of ST. (I forget who) and pass it around to place in their yards for it not to rain on the following day. Like it has some magic power. Stupid and in my opinion a sin and an insult to God.

Doxiemom

Probably the Infant of Prague, some here in Ireland, especially the bride, put the Statue outside over night so that the sun may shine on their wedding day.
I would just say that this to me is no different than lighting a candle, or it’s like an act of faith, take a step says God (putting out the Statue) and I’ll do the rest.

 

[Vidi_Aquam]

I’d simply like to make two points.

In the time of the Ten Commandments idol worship was not the same as it is perceived today. For example, after Aaron and the children of Israel built the golden calf someone (I don’t remember who) declared: “THIS is the God that brought us out of Egypt.”

He did not say “A cow had brought us out of Egypt” nor did he say “A specific cow resembling this brought us out of Egypt” he said “THIS is the god that brought us out of Egypt”.

What he meant by this was that this very statue is in itself the god that they worship. It was not a representation, but it was the god itself. So when they prayed to the calf they were not praying to the calf-god but to the statue itself (which was in their minds a living god) This is repeated in the story of Bel and the Dragon.

When Daniel destroyed the dragon idol the Babylonians considered their god dead. This is different than the way we view our statues. If someone destroyed an image of Jesus we would not believe that Jesus was dead. (that actually sounds quite comical)
But since the Babylonians worshipped the idol itself, it being destroyed meant the god didn’t exist.

This helps us conclude that the idol worship God was referring to was a real materiel worship of statues. This is not found even in some of the most pagan (from a protestant perspective that is) catholic devotions.

Secondly, the Bible makes it very clear that God is worshipped in Sacrifice. All of the true worship of God was done by sacrifice, animal sacrifices in the Old days and Eucharistic (todah) sacrifices in the new days. Prayer is NEVER equated to worship. Prayer is simply communication. No matter how deep you find yourself immersed into prayer, the only way to worship God is through the host. That is not to say prayer isn’t pleasing to God.

For an example within an example: Watering the garden may please your mom and she may appreciate you doing it, but if she asked you to mow the lawn that is what she is looking for.

In the same way God has set since the earliest time one method of worshipping him. Sacrifice. Prayer is simply a devotion.

Thusly praying to saints is simply communicating with saints. Even the most poetic and exalting prayers offered to Mary do not even come close to worship. We could replace an entire Psalm with Mary and it would not be worship (though some statements would be sinful…like calling Mary savior. But I was just making a point) Worshiping Mary would only be making sacrifices in her name. As Jeremiah said: They made cakes in her image and poured out drink offerings. (sorry for no references)

So no even the most vigorous devotion to statues (Mexican devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe could be an example) is a totally different species of devotion.

Dulia and Latria though similar are just as different as Sign language and spoken Language. Even though they both take similar forms.

Dominus Vobiscum,
John. N

 

[Eireann]

My confessor once told me that doubt is not a sin as long as it doesn’t turn into disbelief.

Doubt can be brought on by not understanding something, not understanding something is not a sin.
But the Church asks us to believe in a number of things we do not understand, the Trinity etc;

We should do like Mary, pray and ponder all in our hearts, and pray for new light to shine on our lack of understanding, and remove the doubt.

** CCC 157** Faith is certain. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to human reason and experience, but "the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives. " “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt.”

 

[Eireann]

What he meant by this was that this very statue is in itself the god that they worship. It was not a representation, but it was the god itself. So when they prayed to the calf they were not praying to the calf-god but to the statue itself (which was in their minds a living god) This is repeated in the story of Bel and the Dragon.

Exactly.

 

[Vidi_Aquam]

Exactly.

Of course in today’s world where NO ONE would ever say that a inanimate object is alive…people lose concept of what true image worship is.

 

[Eireann]

Of course in today’s world where NO ONE would ever say that a inanimate object is alive…people lose concept of what true image worship is.

What this thread has shown me is the Catholic Church is right on track with visual representation of Holy people.
Heard that story of the golden calf when I was a child, even then we were told the people were worshipping the calf, and not God, but their god, and that is the correct meaning of the first commandment.

(Strange gods before me) a calf !

**Exodus 32:6 **And rising in the morning, they offered holocausts, and peace victims, and the people sat down to eat, and drink, and they rose up to play. 7 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Go, get thee down: thy people, which thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, hath sinned. 8 They have quickly strayed from the way which thou didst shew them: and they have made to themselves a molten calf, and have adored it, and sacrificing victims to it, have said: These are thy gods, O Israel, that have brought thee out of the land of Egypt.

Catholics don’t sacrifice victims to statues.

 

[Vidi_Aquam]

What this thread has shown me is the Catholic Church is right on track with visual representation of Holy people.
Heard that story of the golden calf when I was a child, even then we were told the people were worshipping the calf, and not God, but their god, and that is the correct meaning of the first commandment.

(Strange gods before me) a calf !

**Exodus 32:6 **And rising in the morning, they offered holocausts, and peace victims, and the people sat down to eat, and drink, and they rose up to play. 7 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Go, get thee down: thy people, which thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, hath sinned. 8 They have quickly strayed from the way which thou didst shew them: and they have made to themselves a molten calf, and have adored it, and sacrificing victims to it, have said: These are thy gods, O Israel, that have brought thee out of the land of Egypt.

Catholics don’t sacrifice victims to statues.

Behold the basis of my statement!

They have offered holocausts (sacrifices) and victims (sacrifices).

Idolatry!

 

[Odell]

**I havent read all the post so I dont know if anyone has thought of this.

most fundamintalist who talk about these images or statues in the comandments. Is there something in the comandments that exlude graven images during CHRISTMAS. I dont know of a church that does not have a manger scene during christams because they are scared of offending God! whats the difference with cathoics having staues year round.**

 

[Atreyu]

I’d simply like to make two points.

In the time of the Ten Commandments idol worship was not the same as it is perceived today. For example, after Aaron and the children of Israel built the golden calf someone (I don’t remember who) declared: “THIS is the God that brought us out of Egypt.”

He did not say “A cow had brought us out of Egypt” nor did he say “A specific cow resembling this brought us out of Egypt” he said “THIS is the god that brought us out of Egypt”.

What he meant by this was that this very statue is in itself the god that they worship. It was not a representation, but it was the god itself. So when they prayed to the calf they were not praying to the calf-god but to the statue itself (which was in their minds a living god) This is repeated in the story of Bel and the Dragon.

When Daniel destroyed the dragon idol the Babylonians considered their god dead. This is different than the way we view our statues. If someone destroyed an image of Jesus we would not believe that Jesus was dead. (that actually sounds quite comical)
But since the Babylonians worshipped the idol itself, it being destroyed meant the god didn’t exist.

This helps us conclude that the idol worship God was referring to was a real materiel worship of statues. This is not found even in some of the most pagan (from a protestant perspective that is) catholic devotions.

Secondly, the Bible makes it very clear that God is worshipped in Sacrifice. All of the true worship of God was done by sacrifice, animal sacrifices in the Old days and Eucharistic (todah) sacrifices in the new days. Prayer is NEVER equated to worship. Prayer is simply communication. No matter how deep you find yourself immersed into prayer, the only way to worship God is through the host. That is not to say prayer isn’t pleasing to God.

For an example within an example: Watering the garden may please your mom and she may appreciate you doing it, but if she asked you to mow the lawn that is what she is looking for.

In the same way God has set since the earliest time one method of worshipping him. Sacrifice. Prayer is simply a devotion.

Thusly praying to saints is simply communicating with saints. Even the most poetic and exalting prayers offered to Mary do not even come close to worship. We could replace an entire Psalm with Mary and it would not be worship (though some statements would be sinful…like calling Mary savior. But I was just making a point) Worshiping Mary would only be making sacrifices in her name. As Jeremiah said: They made cakes in her image and poured out drink offerings. (sorry for no references)

So no even the most vigorous devotion to statues (Mexican devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe could be an example) is a totally different species of devotion.

Dulia and Latria though similar are just as different as Sign language and spoken Language. Even though they both take similar forms.

Dominus Vobiscum,
John. N

Great post. And welcome to the forums!