10 Commandments, graven images

[Saint_Michael]

It is an entirely differant case when one start to kneel in front of statues and pictures of dead people and pray for their intersession. In regards to the practice the catholic church has with mary and the saints. They are dead, and as the bible states it:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

There is no help in asking dead people to intercede for you, they are dead, asleep, nowhere to be found… And they will arise at the second coming of Jesus Christ. This practice, praying for dead peoples help, is spiritism. And that is not God’s method of doing things.

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

*Revelation 5:8
6Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and the elders, a Lamb 4 that seemed to have been slain. He had seven horns and seven eyes; these are the (seven) spirits of God sent out into the whole world.
7 He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne.
8 When he took it, the four living creatures and **the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. ***

Revelation 8:3-4

*3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.
4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. *

According to Revelation the Saints in Heaven do hear our prayers and intercede for us, adn so do the Angels. And don’t look now INCENSE!!! j/k I know SDA’s freak out over incense…

Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus, so the dead are not gone, the dead in purgatory and Saints in Heaven are all part of Christ’s Church.

 

[VociMike]

I’m not ignoring some parts, no. I use my brain to find out what God wants when i read the bible.

Is your brain infallible? If not, what is the point of using your fallible brain to understand the infallible bible?

If you were God, would you even think twice if i, as your creation, took a picture of my son and put it up on the wall? I love my son, and having a picture of him on the wall doesn’t make it idolatry.

God’s ways are not our ways. God is not “reasonable” the way we think we are “reasonable”. He wrote what He wrote. And He didn’t say “don’t make any likeness that is used for idolatry”. He said “don’t make any likeness”, period. You’re adding a condition that is not in the text.

It is an entirely differant case when one start to kneel in front of statues and pictures of dead people and pray for their intersession. In regards to the practice the catholic church has with mary and the saints. They are dead, and as the bible states it:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

There are plenty of “dead people” who are shown in the bible to be quite aware. What in the world do you, as a Christian, think happens to Christians when they die? Do you think they cease to exist?!

Read Revelation. Read how those in heaven are not only alive and alert, but can can hear the prayers of every creature in heaven on earth and under the earth and in the sea, all praising God!

There is no help in asking dead people to intercede for you, they are dead, asleep, nowhere to be found… And they will arise at the second coming of Jesus Christ. This practice, praying for dead peoples help, is spiritism. And that is not God’s method of doing things.

I’m sorry, but your fallible mind, combined with the tradition of men that you follow, has led you into error. Again, read Revelation.

And how did a discussion of the 2nd commandment get turned into an argument against asking those in heaven for intercession? I can perfectly well ask for intercession without being in front of a statue.

 

[Trelow]

Please take the idols out of your wallet and mail them to me. I prefer the ones of the presidents.

 

[Eireann]

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

**
5** “Know nothing more”… Viz., as to the transactions of this world, in which they have now no part, unless it be revealed to them; neither have they any knowledge or power now of doing any thing to secure their eternal state, (if they have not taken care of it in their lifetime), nor can they now procure themselves any good, as the living always may do, by the grace of God.

Source

 

[amills]

Well, there is nothing that excludes images at christmas… Actually there is nothing that tells us to celebrate cristmass at all… So i don’t celebrate it… It was rome who took up that old babylonian tradition with celebrating the 25. of december as the birthday of Christ. The interesting thing is that this day is actually the birthday of Tammuz. The child traditionally thought to be son of Nimrod.

Quotes from Ellen White:

**God would be well pleased if on Christmas, each church would have a Christmas tree on which shall be hung offerings, great and small, for these houses of worship. **Review and Herald, Dec. 11, 1879

**Let the several churches present to God Christmas trees in every church; and then let them hang thereon the fruits of beneficence and gratitude,–offerings coming from willing hearts and hands, fruits that God will accept as an expression of our faith and our great love to him for the gift of his Son, Jesus Christ. Let the evergreen be laden with fruit, rich, and pure, and holy, acceptable to God. Shall we not have such a Christmas as Heaven can approve? **Review and Herald, Dec. 9, 1884

Seems SDAs celebrate Christmas also. Enough said.

 

[jemfinch]

I’m not ignoring some parts, no. I use my brain to find out what God wants when i read the bible.

“Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight.” Scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, not your brain or my brain.

It is an entirely differant case when one start to kneel in front of statues and pictures of dead people and pray for their intersession. In regards to the practice the catholic church has with mary and the saints. They are dead, and as the bible states it:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

So now you’re denying the existence of heaven? “The dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward” seems to indicate that, if interpreted as literally as you’re telling us it should be interpreted, there is no heaven after death.

In fact, let’s look at some other passages from Ecclesiastes 9: “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.” So there’s no love in heaven? “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.” No knowledge or thought in Sheol? What about the Rich man and Lazarus? The Rich man, in Sheol, spoke to Lazarus, and both seemed to have both thought and knowledge. Thus, if your interpretation of Ecclesiastes is true, it contradicts Jesus Christ’s own teachings.

Clearly, your interpretation is wrong.

There is no help in asking dead people to intercede for you, they are dead, asleep, nowhere to be found.

I can tell you one place they’re certainly found: the Body of Christ. “For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slave or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.”

This practice, praying for dead peoples help, is spiritism. And that is not God’s method of doing things.

We don’t pray for their help. We ask for their prayers for God’s help. Since we know they’re not amputated from the Body of Christ by death, and since we would never consider saying to a part of the Body of Christ, “I have no need of you,” we ask them to pray for us.

Jeremy

 

[Vidi_Aquam]

What major difference is there? Catholics don’t worship statues or icons. We use them as tools to remember what they represent. Just like anyone might go to the cemetary and stand in front of a tombstone to call to mind their loved ones.

Do you have an issue with Catholics asking saints in heaven for intercession? Do you have an issue with Catholics asking Mary, the mother of God, to pray for them? If so, then let’s talk about those issues, because those are real issues. Catholics really do that. But if you have an issue with Catholics “worshipping” Mary or the saints or statues thereof, then you need to correct your misunderstanding of what Catholics do. We can’t and won’t justify worshipping, or adoring Mary or the saints of their statues because that would be wrong, and because Catholics don’t do that. We worship only God. Charity demands that you take us at our word when we say that we worship only God. Stop accusing us of doing what we explicitly tell you that we are not doing.

And Catholics do not, ever, worship images. Not under any circumstances whatsoever. It would be mortal sin for us to do so, and this is taught by the Church! Why don’t you believe us? Is it because what we do with our bodies looks so much like worship to you? That’s merely a cultural difference! Do you think that Japanese businesspeople are worshipping each other when they bow to each other in honor? No, you don’t, because you understand that in their culture, that’s not a sign of worship. Likewise, you shouldn’t think that Catholics kneeling before a statue is a sign of worship, because in Catholic culture, it’s not a sign of worship, it’s a sign of honor. When Catholics worship, you know it, because we offer a sacrifice in our worship, and that sacrifice goes only to God.

The Church doesn’t change its doctrines.

Name them. Please.

Go, Peter, kill and eat.

By what authority do you declare that certain Old Testament laws, certain jots and certain tittles have passed from the Law, but certain other ones haven’t? Did Christ give you the power to bind and to loose?

And there are many, many parallels between Dionysus and Jesus – both were the result of a virgin birth, for instance. If mere presence in prior pagan tradition invalidates practices and doctrines of Christianity, we’re left with practically nothing: nearly every important aspect of Christian practice, doctrine, and theology had some sort of precursor in pagan mythology.

Your belief in the “sunworshipper” explanation for Sunday worship only serves as evidence of your uncritical acceptance of whatever “proof” can be provided to support your choice of religion.

Jeremy

My friend David was born on a saturday…omg…the Jews were all DAVIDWORSHIPERS!!!

 

[cet]

Hi, Carl! Guess what? Catholics aren’t worshiping images either! Guess what else, Catholics don’t worship the saints either!

Sunday was a day of worship for Christians waaaay before that!

In regards to worshipping images. Ok, say if we don’t call it worshipping images, it is still praying to the dead. People don’t go to heaven straight away… There is a few examples of where this actually happened, but where do you find that every saint that you have in the church has ascended to heaven? If people went straight to heaven/purgatory/hell(witch i don’t believe in anyways), then who are the people that are going to be ressurected when Jesus comes back to get his people.

And when it comes to the day of worship, just read the fourth commandment, and that’s proof enough. Neither Christ, the Father, or the Holy Ghost EVER taught ANYTHING like that… The reason it says in the bible that the apostles broke the bread on the first day, is because it is custom in jewish tradition to gather at Sabbath evening to to this exact thing… Breaking the bread. And Sabbath evening is very close to the first day, so if the sun had set sabbath evening, then it is no longer the seventh day, but the first… But neither the apostles or the other christians that where won by them kept sunday holy, they kept the sabbath holy, just like it says in the Ten Commandments…

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

 

[Trelow]

In regards to worshipping images. Ok, say if we don’t call it worshipping images, it is still praying to the dead. People don’t go to heaven straight away… There is a few examples of where this actually happened, but where do you find that every saint that you have in the church has ascended to heaven? If people went straight to heaven/purgatory/hell(witch i don’t believe in anyways), then who are the people that are going to be ressurected when Jesus comes back to get his people.

And when it comes to the day of worship, just read the fourth commandment, and that’s proof enough. Neither Christ, the Father, or the Holy Ghost EVER taught ANYTHING like that… The reason it says in the bible that the apostles broke the bread on the first day, is because it is custom in jewish tradition to gather at Sabbath evening to to this exact thing… Breaking the bread. And Sabbath evening is very close to the first day, so if the sun had set sabbath evening, then it is no longer the seventh day, but the first… But neither the apostles or the other christians that where won by them kept sunday holy, they kept the sabbath holy, just like it says in the Ten Commandments…

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

Then again there is that whole power to bind and loose that Jesus gave the apostles and Peter in particular. But lets just ignore that.

 

[corvidae]

The Jews break bread at temple every sabbath? I mean, I thought that at synogogue they learned the scriptures and gathered to pray, and that there were some rituals, like animal sacrafice at the temple, and passover in the home, but I never realized they had a prefigurement of Mass every Sabbath.

Maybe I need to find someone to ratify that for me.

A lone Raven

 

[jemfinch]

In regards to worshipping images. Ok, say if we don’t call it worshipping images, it is still praying to the dead. People don’t go to heaven straight away.

Their spirits do. Their bodies don’t.

There is a few examples of where this actually happened, but where do you find that every saint that you have in the church has ascended to heaven?

Their bodies haven’t.

If people went straight to heaven/purgatory/hell(witch i don’t believe in anyways),

You don’t believe in hell?

then who are the people that are going to be ressurected when Jesus comes back to get his people.

Their bodies will be resurrected.

But neither the apostles or the other christians that where won by them kept sunday holy, they kept the sabbath holy, just like it says in the Ten Commandments.

Which is exactly why it’s been Christian tradition to keep the Lord’s day holy since the first century, but it wasn’t until Ellen White in the 19th century when “True Christians” rediscovered the genuine apostolic tradition?

Honestly, you believe that theory? All hail Popette Ellen White, the restorer of Apostolic Tradition, despite all the historical evidence to the contrary!

To think that the Church went off the rails in the first century regarding such an important Apostolic Tradition as the day of worship. Phenomenal.

Jeremy

 

[VociMike]

Then again there is that whole power to bind and loose that Jesus gave the apostles and Peter in particular. But lets just ignore that.

Yes, I was going to bring that up myself. I guess this would be a case where Jesus’ “whatever” doesn’t really mean “whatever”.

 

[kellie]

:banghead: In my initial post I already said I read this and found it to be a bad apologetic. The two examples God directly commands them to be built. There’s no examples of early Christians building statues and praying to them. The apologetic is very shallow and doesn’t give a good reason why we contradict the 2nd commandment and build statues and bow down to them.

In my opinion, bowing down to someone means professing they are someone to be obeyed.

Bowing down in front of a statue means 2 things then …

a) you literally bend your knees and kneel before the statue, using the statue as a reminder of the real person you are praying to, that is Jesus or Mary

or

b) you are bowing down to the statue as you think the actual statue is to be obeyed

The Commandment not to bow down to idols means not to do (b)

God never meant do not ever literally bend your knees, place your knees on the floor, soles up, and pray in front of a statue of me.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by Big_Dave
I heard an Adventist pastor once say that when you die you exist only in the mind of God.

Thats probably as close as Adventists will get to comfort at a funeral.

What they actually beleive is that a human is a living being (soul) and that when death comes, that being ceases to exist. There is no existence in death. Only when the resurrection occurs will that person ‘live’ again. Death is total unconsciousness. The wicked will be totally obliterated and have no existence of any kind whatsoever after their disposal in the Lake of fire.

They seem to ignore this clear teaching of St. Paul:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
"Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say... and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

He clearly says we can be ‘absent from the body’. Therefore, we are not an inseperable body+breath= ‘living soul’ which has no existence after life ceases.

Philippians 1:21-24
“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I don’t know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.”

The adventist idea that we are unconscious until we have a body again in the resurrection is not biblical.

If St. Paul knew he would not be conscious again until the second comming, why would he desire to ‘depart and be with Christ’? An early death will not hasten the second comming, and how could unconsciousness be ‘better’ than remaining and completing his work?

MarysRoses

I took the liberty since I was the originator.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Quotes from Ellen White:

**God would be well pleased if on Christmas, each church would have a Christmas tree on which shall be hung offerings, great and small, for these houses of worship. **Review and Herald, Dec. 11, 1879

**Let the several churches present to God Christmas trees in every church; and then let them hang thereon the fruits of beneficence and gratitude,–offerings coming from willing hearts and hands, fruits that God will accept as an expression of our faith and our great love to him for the gift of his Son, Jesus Christ. Let the evergreen be laden with fruit, rich, and pure, and holy, acceptable to God. Shall we not have such a Christmas as Heaven can approve? **Review and Herald, Dec. 9, 1884

Seems SDAs celebrate Christmas also. Enough said.

Got anymore of these Ellen White quotes?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Please take the idols out of your wallet and mail them to me. I prefer the ones of the presidents.

 

[amills]

Got anymore of these Ellen White quotes?

Sure: Here’s another one:
As the twenty-fifth of December is observed to commemorate the birth of Christ, as the children have been instructed by precept and example that this was indeed a day of gladness and rejoicing, you will find it a difficult matter to pass over this period without giving it some attention. It can be made to serve a very good purpose. **Review and Herald, January 29, 1884. **

 

[amills]

Got anymore of these Ellen White quotes?

Ellen White is quite controversial in the SDA church currently. In the 1980s there was quite a to do regarding the plagarism of her writings. In addition there are many problems with the things she wrote. For example in one of the General Conferences she claimed that many of those at the conference would be alive at the second coming of Christ. I believe the conference was around 1862 and certainly that is not true.

The belief that Ellen White is a prophet is one of the now 28 basic beliefs of the SDA. However, many SDA are coming to reject this belief as well as some of the other beliefs that clearly are not biblical. (or supported in any other way than in EGW writings). I guess you might call them “Cafeteria SDAs”. Interestingly enough, although there are clearly some big problems with EGW and her writings there are also those who are staunch supporters of her regardless. Personally, I would find her very difficult to defend. In my opinion, once EGW writings fall, so does the rest of the SDA belief system.

 

[cet]

Their spirits do. Their bodies don’t.
Their bodies haven’t.

Their spirit? where do you get the idea that the spirit goes to heaven or hell?

You don’t believe in hell?

Nop, i don’t not in the burning inferno the catholic church has adoptet from babylonian heathenism.

Their bodies will be resurrected.

Hmmmm, still have to prove that the spirit is seperate from the body.

Which is exactly why it’s been Christian tradition to keep the Lord’s day holy since the first century, but it wasn’t until Ellen White in the 19th century when “True Christians” rediscovered the genuine apostolic tradition?

The sabbath has been kept by the true christians through the whole 2000 years after Christ was crucified. no exceptions.

Honestly, you believe that theory? All hail Popette Ellen White, the restorer of Apostolic Tradition, despite all the historical evidence to the contrary!

You’ve been duped. Read this:

sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history1.asp

To think that the Church went off the rails in the first century regarding such an important Apostolic Tradition as the day of worship. Phenomenal.

Paul warned against the exact same thing you think impossible:

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Why should i lie about importaint matters like this?

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

 

[JoeyWarren]

Hmmmm, still have to prove that the spirit is seperate from the body.

There is favorite phrase in the bible that shows the spirit separates from the body. “Gave up the Ghost” and “Give up the Ghost”

If the Spirit and Body are inseparable then the Body cannot give up the Ghost(Spirit).

Gen 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

Gen 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.

Gen 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Lam 1:19 I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.

Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Mar 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Act 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!

Job 11:20 But the eyes of the wicked shall fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope shall be as the giving up of the ghost.

Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

Jer 15:9 She that hath borne seven languisheth: she hath given up the ghost; her sun is gone down while it was yet day: she hath been ashamed and confounded: and the residue of them will I deliver to the sword before their enemies, saith the LORD.