10 Commandments, graven images

[JoeyWarren]

And why on earth would Jesus and the deciples bring back people from the dead, that’s like dragging them out of heaven again, to live in this miserable sinful world again

Your logic fails here. At the point in time this was happening, the Gates of Heaven were not open as they are now. So Lazarus was not ripped out of heaven, He was ripped out of Sheol.

 

[cet]

No Catholic has ever ‘needed an image’ in order to pray. Catholicism does not need them.
The point about Sacred images is this:
The Christian Church from its very beginnings had images painted on walls, or mosaic tiles on Church floors, decorating His house for the glory of God, and instructing, and reminding the Faithful. Apart from visual art inspired by the Sacred, there were continuous written works of art inspired by the Sacred Scriptures.
From the very beginning of the Church, Happy.
The question really is, why did the protestants want to destroy everything that reminded them of their faith. It was in fact a crime in protestant lands - it was illegal in protestant Netherlands to make or have any religous art. Anything that might remind them of Christianity was destroyed.
Your spiritual ancestors, Happy, welcomed Catholic theology books which were inspired by scriptures they also welcomed another type of art that reminded them of their Faith.
That is, until someone made them feel ashamed of these reminders of their Faith.

So you honestly disregard the whole of creation, the whole nature as a reminder of our God and what he did for us? And regard the mere images that the catholic church made as the only reminder? Wow, that is intense…

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

 

[JoeyWarren]

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Psa 115:17)

That was true before the resurrection. There is a whole new ballgame now since Jesus has opened the Gates of Heaven. The souls of the departed that are righteous no longer go to sheol, they now go to heaven.

 

[cet]

Your logic fails here. At the point in time this was happening, the Gates of Heaven were not open as they are now. So Lazarus was not ripped out of heaven, He was ripped out of Sheol.

Yes he was ripped out of the sleep that death is compared with… that is more correct… How could he be in hell? I mean, the judgement doesn’t happen until Jesus comes back AFTER the thousand years since his second coming, wich we are waiting to happen any minute now… Does God start punishment before the judgement has been given?

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

 

[cet]

That was true before the resurrection. There is a whole new ballgame now since Jesus has opened the Gates of Heaven. The souls of the departed that are righteous no longer go to sheol, they now go to heaven.

Where is the scriptural proof of this?

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

 

[JoeyWarren]

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(Ecc 9:5)

We have to look at the context of the entire chapter. Here is the footnote on this chapter:

These statements are based on a very imperfect concept of life beyond the grave. With Christian revelation about the future life came the only satisfactory solution of the problem which so perplexed the author.

 

[cet]

Anyways, the second commandment is broken with this kind of worship:

1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. “The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.”

God never told us to worship the bread…

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

 

[cet]

1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).

And is this really, truly what you believe? That if you take a bite of the eucharist, you really eat, Jesus with body and soul and divinity, as in a real true and substantial manner? That’s basicly the the same as the pagan religions taugh… To eat the god was a very common thing in old paganism…

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

 

[JoeyWarren]

Where is the scriptural proof of this?

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

which part?

The thief on the cross was promised he would be in paradise.

During the OT, it was believed that the dead where in two compartments in the grave ( luke 16 ). Yes, Enoch, Elijah and maybe Moses were taken to heaven, they did not ascend under their own power. When Jesus ascended to heaven after the resurrection, he opened heaven and moved paradise to heaven, Paul in II Cor 12 was caught up to paradise. So, heaven was offically opened up at the ascension after Jesus resurrection, but a few were allowed in before the grand opening. Those referred to as being alive were in the paradise side of the grave.

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Ephesians 4:7-13

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[I_Leatherman]

CET:

…I believe that the proof that the people who died, are unconscious, and in a state of total unawareness of the surrounding world,…

CET:

I believe that heaven is full of Gods creations. Not so many humans though, but i believe there are a couple of hundred, remember the people that was raised from the grave when Jesus rose from the dead? those and the obvius ascentions that we can read about in the bible, i believe are in heaven, but i still absolutely not believe or think that we should pray for their intersession, not under any circomstances… I rely on Christ only for my salvation, not humans, weather they be dead or not…

Not sure which one you believe now, but:

Do you think those Saints in Heaven can hear you?

 

[I_Leatherman]

So you honestly disregard the whole of creation, the whole nature as a reminder of our God and what he did for us? And regard the mere images that the catholic church made as the only reminder? Wow, that is intense…

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

I did not mention nature at all, don’t know why you say that.
Without Christianity, obviously, you could not ever know God, with or without nature…

But why would one not wish to be reminded of his Christian heritage and Faith. I included literature as well as visual art as both being reminders of our Faith. You would’nt disregard all reminders [nature included] just because they are reminders, now would you.

 

[sara888]

Well can i just summary alittle, protestant do not need a image of beloved Jesus/Mary for prayer, for God is present everywhere and any time. We need a beautiful heart to see a beautiful God, no need picture or craved image…for Holy Spirit dwell in us, so no need to be uncertain that you need a picture/image to concentrate on the prayer. Our spirit intercess with Holy spirit when we pray!!! God will hear our prayer even without picture/image

Just like when we are hungry, the brain send signal, not when we look at food then we know we are hungry…

**Then why do people have pictures of their loved ones and friends.?

Graven image does not apply to images or relics of Jesus and the Saints, etc… they are referring to other Gods in the Bible.

Jan**

 

[sara888]

Anyways, the second commandment is broken with this kind of worship:

1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. “The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession.”

God never told us to worship the bread…

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

**God told us to worship him, and since he is present in the communion by his own words." This is my body", and this is my blood," we honor this. If God is all around us, why could he not be present in the Eurcharist.?

Jan**

 

[SPH1]

Unfortunately, you seem very weak in the Holy Catholic Faith. Fodder for Jehova Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, assorted anti-Catholic Protestants…probably Muslims. Maybe atheists.

Hopefully, you will find strength here and at other good Catholic sites.

The Catholic Church didn’t remove any commandments. Check your Bible, they’re there. The numbering is for use in various Catechisms. Lutherans traditionally used the Catholic numbering, as I recall. By the way, returning to your bible, notice that the commands aren’t numbered there at all! God did not give the commandments as “First Commandment…”, “Second Commandment…”, etc.

Now, why do you suppose that God gave the commandment re graven images? My belief: because man did not really know who God was. Once one knows who the real God is, one need not fear falling into idolatry.

Note that strictly speaking, the commandment prohibits making any graven images at all. That means the Statue of Liberty, Lincoln Memorial, numerous figurines in your house, etc. etc.

 

[Mommyof02green]

This is what Jesus answered the devil when he wanted Jesus to fall down before him: Mat 4:9-10
“And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”

Amen, Amen, Amen! I only worship God! I have no problem with that what so ever! Since when is looking at an image of someone that lived and walked this Earth worshiping them?? Do you look at images of members of your family? Do you worship them??

I see images of the Saints and are reminded that they are a part of my Christian family. That they lived the life that Jesus’ wanted. They were great Christians that worship God and so can I. They are “role-models”. Is it wrong to have role models??? Also they are apart of my Christian Family. We are commanded by God to honor or Father and Mother. How does that commandment fit into our Christian family???

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Psa 115:17)

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5)

And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. (Luk 24:3-7)

Amen, Amen, Amen This is the Word of God. Praise God for His words.

However, I DO NOT AGREE with your “personal” interpretation of the passage!

I think this is particularly interresting, because the angels ask why they seek the living among the dead. But after what i understand from catholics in general is that the dead (their spirit) is allready in heaven or purgatory or hell… But this shows us that the dead Christ was in the grave, not anywhere else.

Again I do not agree with your interpretation. Christ is not there because he has RISEN… Give thanks to the RISEN Lord!

And another thing i find puzzling; if all knew that people’s spirit where going here or there, especially if they where believers, why wouldn’t they be happy for the people that went to heaven, and not mourn, because they would definatly be in a much better place than here on earth.

We mourn because me miss them! We know they are in a better place, and that gives us comfort, however we miss be able to touch them, hold them, and see them.

And why on earth would Jesus and the deciples bring back people from the dead, that’s like dragging them out of heaven again, to live in this miserable sinful world again… i know that if i was Lazarus, and had seen the beauty of heaven, just to get dragged back out again after several days in paradise, i would not be happy… i would be very disappointed…

Again I do not agree with your personal interpretation of the passages.

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. (Rom 4:17)

Amen, Amen Amen for this is the word of God.

The word quickeneth here means:

G2227
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

Thanks for the vocab lesson.

Make alive, give life, quicken… hmmm, But after catholic thinking, this person is allready alive, in heaven, as a spirit? There is no need of making him come alive again, he IS alive, notice that this word does not mean “to get his body back.”

Again I don’t totally agree with your **personal ** interpretation. However as St. Francis said: “It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life.” So I do agree with the statement that: “this means to me that the person who was dead, and that is quickened, is made to come alive again”. You are right we must die to be awaken (come alive again) into Eternal Life. Amen, Amen, Amen

 

[Mommyof02green]

Also resurrection means this;
G386 anastasis From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

Once again thanks for the vocab lesson.

Raised to life again. Still no “will be given his/her body back”

I DO NOT TOTALLY AGREE with your personal interpretation. However you are right when you say, “Raised to life again”. Again quoting St. Francis “It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life.”

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1Th 4:16)

Amen for this is the Word of God.

Again, why would Jesus rise people twice? first in the minute he died, and then again at Jesus second coming? There is only mentioned two “rise from the dead”-events, the first is when Jesus comes back for the second time to get His faithful with Him into heaven. The second event is when he comes back after a thousand years to pass a final judgement over the fallen ones, the devil and his angels, and the people that supported the devil…

I DO NOT AGREE with your 'personal interpretation. So if I don’t agree with your personal interpretation what do I agree with???

I agree with this quote:
catholic.com:

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59). For more see: catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. (Rev 14:13) This is also an interesting scripture; “that they may rest from their labours”

I’m sure that you realize that I don’t have a problem with the Word of God. I just don’t always agree with your personal interpretation of the Word of God.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev 20:5)

Amen, Amen this is the Word of Living God.

Here is what i mentioned regarding the first and second resurrection. The first resurrection is the people that will taken with Jesus into heaven. THE OTHER ONES WILL NOT LIVE AGAIN UNTIL A THOUSAND YEARS… they are dead… That means, no life, no pain, no joy, no feelings, no torture in hell, because “the dead know not any thing”…

I believe that the proof that the people who died, are unconscious, and in a state of total unawareness of the surrounding world, is more that sufficient to topple over the belief of a everlasting burning inferno that God is going to use to torture his creatures with… And this, again, topples over the belief that the dead saints not mentioned in the bible as risen, are totally unaware of the prayers given to them for intersession. If you want Jesus to help you, ask Jesus, noone else can help. (having live people to pray for you, and with you are a totally different matter, and reccomendable too… )

Thank-you for sharing your personal interpretations of the Word of God. I just simply do not agree with all of your personal interpretations!!!

I wonder what you make of Revelation 5:6-8 and Revelation 8:3-5. Prayerfully read those passages. Read them twice, once of the head and once for the heart. Ask the Holy Spirit to be with you when you review those passages and let me know what you think.

God Bless.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Dear cet
I applaud your faith in Christ since this is what we have in common. I know this is a difficult issue for some who are not Catholic to understand, but it is biblical and is preceded from Old Testament times. One of them is the passover in Exodus where the lamb had to be completely eaten. This was a symbol of the coming Eucharistic meal which is eaten and involved the "lamb of God:. Next is the passage from John (6:52) in which he says unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you will have not life within you. The proceeding passage just identified Jesus as the bread that has come down from heaven. The greek word eat means “to chew”. It is not figurative. Also, the word bethlehem where Christ was born means city of bread.
Please give this some thought. Nicodemus did when Christ explained it to him.
mdcpensive1

 

[cet]

which part?

The thief on the cross was promised he would be in paradise.

Well, that is true, but he wasn’t promised to be there that same day, that is actually impossible. If we take a quick look at it, you’ll see what i mean.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43 KJV)

This looks good enough, until you put this scripture beside it:

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(Joh 20:17 KJV)

This is in chronological order… And on top Jesus says that the thief should join Him in paradise TO DAY… how can this be, when Jesus STILL HADN’T gone to heaven the third day? This means, that the first verse should actually read: “Verily I say unto thee to day, thou shalt be with me in paradise” If not, that would make our Lord a liar. But of course this is not so, Jesus just confirmed that this criminal was forgiven, and a life in paradise was awaiting him when Jesus came back for the second time to get His faithful.

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

 

[FCEGM]

Carl, I invite you to participate in the discussion regarding “soul sleep” at this thread on CAF:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=111228

Also, you should find this site of interest:

diesdomini.com/

 

[FCEGM]

So you honestly disregard the whole of creation, the whole nature as a reminder of our God and what he did for us? And regard the mere images that the catholic church made as the only reminder? Wow, that is intense…

Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal

Carl, he never stated nor implied any such “disregard” as you suggest; but I find it amusingly ironic that with all your accusations of “pagan-this-and-pagan-that”, that you don’t recognize how appreciation of creation and its wonder and beauty and mystery was an entree for “pagans” for worship of the divine. Of course this appreciation was perverted into worship of creatures rather than the Creator, but still there was a longing for contact with what was behind the creation that was true and good.

The typical SDA accusations against the Church of “paganism” arise from blindness to how all things are made new in Christ. In Ephesians 1:10 we read: “. . .to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth,” (RSV). Here and elsewhere in Scripture we see that all of creation is to be gathered into submission to Christ - ALL of creation. The Church is the means by which this gathering-in is accomplished, redeeming and sanctifying in Christ that which has been corrupted - including time, places, and things.

If one chooses to question the adoption of such religious actions and symbols because of their pagan origination, then one should likewise question the Hebrew festivals we see recorded in Scripture. Christmas, e.g., is no more or less “pagan” than the Jewish celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles which coincided with a similar festival of the Canaanites celebrating the grape harvest. Just as the Hebrews made their own and conformed to the honor of the One True God what were previously pagan commemorations, it was (is) entirely appropriate for the Church to reclaim and make new what had been turned from its original purpose remembering and glorifying the Creator and His Divine interaction with His Creatures. The fact that “pagans” employed certain created elements (e.g., water) in religious practices, does not mean that they cannot be redeemed and put to the use for which they were created - ultimately to the glory of God. (I note that you never responded to my post regarding baptism by immersion and the similar practice of the Hindus at the River Ganges.)

The difficulty some have such “baptism” of formerly “pagan” practices or with some of the human traditions that have been incorporated into authentic Christian religious worship and practice, seems to come from the idea that everything having to do with man’s relationship to God has to have a scriptural warrant .

If we were to apply this sense of purity to Scripture itself we would have to exclude much of what we see of the religious practices of the Hebrew people recorded there. Certainly they were divinely guided to offer to God the worship He desired from them, but if we make even the most cursory comparison to the religious practices of their neighbors - especially the Egyptians and then the Canaanites - we find great similarities and even appropriations: circumcision, festivals, sacrificial rituals and libations hymns (psalms), proverbs (Prov. 22:17-24:22 was modeled after the Egyptians “The Instruction of Amenehope”, 10000-600 B.C.). Pagan origins? Yes. Yet God used it all to fashion a people for Himself, using the “material at hand” and giving it His divine blessing and transforming it to His purposes. Just so, in its wisdom the Church incorporates what may be seen as formerly “pagan” (but coming to us through Judaism) should rightly be seen as a part of the submission of all things to Christ.