10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down

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I believe that gun ownership is OK provided strict screening for people with anger, hatred or rage. Gun ownership should be a privilege, and not a right. People should be readily able to assess the pros and cons of gun ownership, such as from a pamphlet.

LOVE! ❤️
But it doesn’t really matter what you think, now does it?
 
Social justice is to see, and try to prevent, the potential negative consequences of guns, which owners are often unaware.

LOVE! ❤️
What about the potential negative consequences of banning guns? Have you considered those?
 
Right.

The difference is still that when you obtain a gun, you have someone in mind that you mean to kill (who is also someone’s loved one, even if they deserve killing, in your opinion) whereas when you buy a car, you aren’t thinking of killing anyone; you are thinking of getting safely from place to place.
When I bought my gun, I did not have someone in mind that I meant to kill. I wasn’t even thinking about killing anybody when I bought my gun. When I bought my gun I was thinking of getting safely from place to place, just like when I bought my car. What an uncharitable, sweeping generalization of gun owners.
 
Ah, but it is! In case you are not aware of it, but cigarette smoking has never been proven to cause cancer in humans, but still, the Surgeon General has concluded that it does! How can this be?
But still, tobacco is not banned is it?
having a gun in the household will result in an additional risk that goes well beyond the need to use the weapon on an intruder.
LOVE! ❤️
You believe the risk is greater then the need to use the weapon on an intruder but that doesn’t mean everyone does. People calculate benefits and risks differently based on the own information, beliefs, and value judgements.
 
What we are addressing here is not the right to self defense which is of course the right of each person, we are talking about the right to armed defense.
That is similar to claiming a right to free speech but claiming that you can restrict internet speech.

Hmmmm, perhaps we should pass a law prohibiting anti-gun owners from defending their opinions online. After all, your right to free speech will not be affected. 😉

Bottom line is, any right is useless without the means.
Particularly the right to kill in armed defense. That right is extended to only those whose authority is granted by the civil community, justified by the civil needs of that community and are accountable to the common good of all.
All legitimate governments derive their powers from the consent of the individual citizens. Therefore, if the citizens do not possess the power to kill in self-defense, the state may not.
 
Gun ownership is partly self defence, partly because of Ego , partly because of fear,
Same as Generations earlier , when macho men had Clubs of wood over there cave Dwelling mantelpiece …
 
Bottom line is, any right is useless without the means.All legitimate governments derive their powers from the consent of the individual citizens. Therefore, if the citizens do not possess the power to kill in self-defense, the state may not.
Just to be clear, we have the right of self defense, and if that defense results in the death of another, the only culpability is on the aggressor.

That is theologically distinct from the Right to Kill, which is God given to the State.

In defense, we cannot go to a bound and restrained criminal and shoot them, and keep shooting them until they are dead. The Military cannot to that to an enemy solider, Not even the police can do that.

But the State CAN. It is called Capital Punishment, and it is how the State defends society as a whole.
 
Gun ownership is partly self defence, partly because of Ego , partly because of fear,
Same as Generations earlier , when macho men had Clubs of wood over there cave Dwelling mantelpiece …
Phil, since you seem to have intimate knowledge of the motivations of gun ownership, you would seem to be a gun owner.

How many guns do you own, and of what caliber.
 
Phil, since you seem to have intimate knowledge of the motivations of gun ownership, you would seem to be a gun owner.

How many guns do you own, and of what caliber.
There would be hundreds of reasons for Gun ownership…
I had two rifles , Both .22 caliber , the reason I had them was because we owned a dairy farm, and most farmers would experience birth,life & death often,
In 1996 , in Australia there was a dreadful massacre , we were no longer on a farm,
And I handed them both in, I didn’t believe weapons were of use in suburbia,
Was I responsible ? Was I stupid ? I think that at the time I did the right thing,
 
There would be hundreds of reasons for Gun ownership…
I had two rifles , Both .22 caliber , the reason I had them was because we owned a dairy farm, and most farmers would experience birth,life & death often,
In 1996 , in Australia there was a dreadful massacre , we were no longer on a farm,
And I handed them both in, I didn’t believe weapons were of use in suburbia,
Was I responsible ? Was I stupid ? I think that at the time I did the right thing,
So did you own those .22s out of self defense, ego or fear
 
So did you own those .22s out of self defense, ego or fear
Code:
 AH,,,, you are being clever,,,,well said...:hmmm:
I guess,it was none of those three reasons, if you butcher an animal , it’s a humane method to end a life, or perhaps to put down a wild dog which I never had to do,.
Or if an animal was suffering because of some cause
 
No. All that has been shown in this thread is that there is a correlation between having access to a gun in the home and suicides, homicides, and accidental shootings of people within the household. But correlation does not equal causation. Why is that so hard for you to understand? It seems that people in your profession and the other “soft sciences” make that mistake all the time. You cannot infer a causal relationship from a correlation but that is exactly what you are doing in this thread.

The Second Amendment and Supreme Court disagree with you. Darn that pesky Constitution!
By renouncing all correctional data, you’re inadvertently rejecting much of science, including quantum mechanics. If you were a bookie, would you not calculate the odds?

LOVE! ❤️
 
I guess,it was none of those three reasons, if you butcher an animal , it’s a humane method to end a life, or perhaps to put down a wild dog which I never had to do,.
Or if an animal was suffering because of some cause
I agree, they are tool, which can be very useful.

My mother grew up on a farm in Ireland. She and my grandmother could both pick off crows with a shotgun like you would not believe.

And then my uncles would use that same shotgun to bring down pheasant for more meat on the table.

So my interest in skeet and trap come honestly ( which is yet another reason for owning guns, sporting purposes. Which may or may not involve ego, if it does, it no more ego than owning golf clubs, if anything they both bring about humility 😛 🙂
 
I agree, they are tool, which can be very useful.

My mother grew up on a farm in Ireland. She and my grandmother could both pick off crows with a shotgun like you would not believe.

And then my uncles would use that same shotgun to bring down pheasant for more meat on the table.

So my interest in skeet and trap come honestly ( which is yet another reason for owning guns, sporting purposes. Which may or may not involve ego, if it does, it no more ego than owning golf clubs, if anything they both bring about humility 😛 🙂
I guess that the finale wash up on the subject is,
there are any number of reasons for gun ownership. The only downside is that the minority spoil it for the majority, and in a democracy there’s not much that can be done about it.
 
If you had read the thread in it’s entirety, that was already discussed. It is not the goal of armed defense to kill, but to stop the attack. That is consisted both with US Civil Law and Catholic moral theology.

What you are referring to, and what Aquinas referred to, was Capital Punishment, which is a form of Self Defense, but one restricted to the State. That is the only time a specific intention to kill is allowed under Catholic Moral Law.

I presume that your police are not authorized to try and execute an attacker, yet the police carry guns. The police do not exist for executions, but for armed defense; those are different things (mostly, see below)
The blameless defense of an individual does not include the intention to kill in self defense.
It is not just Capital Punishment which constitutes the intention to kill. In explaining the citizens right to self defense, Aquinas says…
But as it is unlawful to take a man’s life, except for the public authority acting for the common good, as stated above (Article 3), it is not lawful for a man to intend killing a man in self-defense, except for such as have public authority, who while intending to kill a man in self-defense, refer this to the public good, as in the case of a soldier fighting against the foe, and in the minister of the judge struggling with robbers, although even these sin if they be moved by private animosity.
So the police and army by the very fact of being armed to kill in their defensive actions, constitute an ‘intention to kill’ according to Aquinas. A private citizen deliberately armed to kill in the event of ‘struggling with a robber’ is therefore forearmed with the ‘intent to kill’.
And what would stop the circulation of guns among criminals anyway? It’s not like they are even hard to make. I’ve made flintlocks from ‘scratch’ using materials I can get at any junk shop and tools from my local hardware store.
If you add to that what is being done with 3-D printing, how exactly do you envision any criminal who wanted a gun being unable to obtain one.
Here are blueprints for the Britsh Sten Gun, a WW-II submachine gun that was specifically designed to be manufactured in garages.
I could easily make one in my garage with simple tools.
Shortly after WW-II, in British occupied Palestine, Zionists were making them by the hundred in the basement of a laundry that served British officers. The sounds of the machinery below were drowned out by the sounds of the washers and dryers above, all while the very men who were supposed to be keeping arms away from the feuding sides were dropping off their shirts to be pressed 😛
And even in Australia, it doesn’t seem hard for a criminal to get their hands on a gun, if they wanted
Anyone with possession of a gun that is not police/military/security, farmers or others professionally required or sportspeople… is a criminal and severely dealt with by the law. The State that phil at Dayboro and I live in has recently seen the conservative State government come down so hard on outlaws in the community, confiscating guns and the proceeds of crime down to lawnmowers and kitchen appliances. Outlaw bikie gang members are now arrested and prosecuted just for being together in public. You cannot imagine how empowered the ordinary person feels by this type of action by the Government and police. Nobody here would ever go the way of saying well the criminals have this type of firepower so we the people need to be armed even better to deal with it.

That certainly doesn’t make people feel empowered in the US example of arming the citizenry. Everyone is terrified out of their minds for their Granny’s and kids. That seems to be a constant fear brought up to justify guns but seems that regardless of the number of guns in the community( 89 to every 100 people), the fear seems to be compounded so far out of proportion to the reality. Owning guns has made the citizenry more paranoid and more ‘what if’ and ‘the sky is falling’ than anyone in countries that have the ‘no gun’ solution ever seems to be.
 
Originally Posted by LongingSoul
What we are addressing here is not the right to self defense which is of course the right of each person, we are talking about the right to armed defense.
Your analogy doesn’t really equate since being anti-gun on online forums isn’t likely to kill or maim anyone. :knight2:

It is more analogous to having the right to free speech limited where speech incites illegal activity and subversive speech, or fighting words, obscenity and pornography, commercial speech (tobacco adverts), and symbolic expression.
 
It’s scary to think of the conversations you folks seem to have\

"Did you hear about old Mrs Jones

No what?

Her flat was broken into last night, they beat the dear black and blue, She’s in the hospital now, they don’t think she’ll pull through

What a shame, if only she could have defended herself against those thugs

With WHAT? A GUN? She could have actually pulled the trigger and HURT one of the thugs, possibly even killed him!!

Good point!, who gave her that right anyway, to hurt thugs. Besides who wants more guns in the hands of the weak and defenseless anyway"

😦
I’ve had a similar argument recently in making my anti medical marijuana position. The pro crowd say 'Did you hear about Joe with cancer. He’s in pain and can’t eat and they don’t think he’ll pull through. What a shame. If only he could smoke a joint. A WHAT? A JOINT? He could actually get high and enjoy himself!! Good point!, who gave him the right to enjoy himself. Besides who wants more weed in the hands of the young and vulnerable anyway.

There are many legitimate ways of dealing with the suffering of cancer as is proved by the many, many countries who don’t prescribe marijuana… a substance that has the potential to imprison people in self absorbed, narcissistic mindlessness and destroy lives.

There are many legitimate ways of dealing with violence and crime also as proved by the many, many countries who don’t allow guns in defense.

If something is doing more harm than good in the community by its presence, it is right and proper to find another way more conducive to the common good.
 
I’ve had a similar argument recently in making my anti medical marijuana position. The pro crowd say 'Did you hear about Joe with cancer. He’s in pain and can’t eat and they don’t think he’ll pull through. What a shame. If only he could smoke a joint. A WHAT? A JOINT? He could actually get high and enjoy himself!! Good point!, who gave him the right to enjoy himself. Besides who wants more weed in the hands of the young and vulnerable anyway.

There are many legitimate ways of dealing with the suffering of cancer as is proved by the many, many countries who don’t prescribe marijuana… a substance that has the potential to imprison people in self absorbed, narcissistic mindlessness and destroy lives.

There are many legitimate ways of dealing with violence and crime also as proved by the many, many countries who don’t allow guns in defense.

If something is doing more harm than good in the community by its presence, it is right and proper to find another way more conducive to the common good.
What a very cold attitude. I happen to be one of those older women 70 as a matter of fact. So for the good of my country I should leave myself open to a beating or maybe murder? I own a gun. I periodically go to a shooting range to remain current in my ability to use it should that be necessary. It seems to me that you would rather the perpetrator survives and people like me should offer ourselves for them, right? I found a few more stories about guns and your country and I plan to post them. Please, after that do not post your less than accurate warm fuzzy rose colored glasses legends about Australia. You can bury your head in the sand and be against the right to carry guns all you want but please stop with the “my country is better than your country” it is simply not true.

Annie
 
In your list, the Australian stats are 20 years old and prior to strict gun laws being implemented.

I am sorry for the mocking tone I used. But it is just burying your head in the sand to try and white wash the horror stories that come out of US society that involve gun violence. Just in the last 4 years these are some of the shocking scenes that we’ve come to expect when we turn on our TV’s…

gawker.com/5968561/five-of-the-twelve-deadliest-gun-massacres-in-us-history-took-place-during-obamas-first-term/
Please stop with the “my country is better than your country” like I wrote before, it isn’t.

dailydot.com/crime/encrypted-phone-australian-bike-gang/

abc.net.au/news/2014-04-15/nt-police-crackdown-on-drugs-and-outlaw-biker-gangs/5392124

abc.net.au/news/2014-01-23/australian-crime-commission-cash-seizures/5214310

betabeat.com/2014/03/australian-biker-gang-allegedly-used-super-encrypted-phone-to-kill-hells-angels/

vancouversun.com/news/Australia+creates+special+prison+biker+gang+members/9044750/story.html

The first year results are now in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent, Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent!). In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. (Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in “successfully ridding Australian society of guns.”

gunsnfreedom.com/17-years-after-gun-bans-in-australia-police-say-gun-crime-is-out-of-control/

breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/08/21/Aussie-Politician-Complains-About-U-S-

Gun-Laws-But-Gun-Crime-In-Sydney-Is-Out-Of-Control

goldcoastbulletin.com.au/news/crime-court/former-bikie-shot-by-balaclava-bandits-in-worongary-home-invasion/story-fnje8bkv-1226851010640

bing.com/videos/search?q=home+invasion+australia+2014&qpvt=home+invasion+australia+2014&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=109D8AB0F9AF1B281C1C109D8AB0F9AF1B281C1C
 
I’ve had a similar argument recently in making my anti medical marijuana position. The pro crowd say 'Did you hear about Joe with cancer. He’s in pain and can’t eat and they don’t think he’ll pull through. What a shame. If only he could smoke a joint. A WHAT? A JOINT? He could actually get high and enjoy himself!! Good point!, who gave him the right to enjoy himself. Besides who wants more weed in the hands of the young and vulnerable anyway.

There are many legitimate ways of dealing with the suffering of cancer as is proved by the many, many countries who don’t prescribe marijuana… a substance that has the potential to imprison people in self absorbed, narcissistic mindlessness and destroy lives.

There are many legitimate ways of dealing with violence and crime also as proved by the many, many countries who don’t allow guns in defense.

If something is doing more harm than good in the community by its presence, it is right and proper to find another way more conducive to the common good.
Now, how about going and fighting against the murder of babes in the womb in your country.l
 
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